To be blunt

[Hanson's Roughriders]

I am not a troll and am rather insulted at the comment. I have seen far worse here with less witch hunting. I am not the voice of reason but a newcomer, perhaps in future Ill keep my mouth shut. But I am new here so I thought I might tell you the ivory tower 'aint that ivory anymore. Frankly I think a troll would post less, and not post positive.

So with further ado I hope this thread is locked as I don't want anything more happening due to me. Yet realize this I am new, I am no vet and I felt I had the right to get a few things off my chest.

Can i get this locked?deleted?

 

[77topaz]

Bias, hatred, disagree with nobility I can understand those points but complaining about the game needing a 2.0 makes people who have just purchased it go why the hell did I bother. We should be making attempts to say, hey this is a great tool box how do we use it and how do we break down the rules for new players? In the end its not how the old rusted on veterans care for a specific rule, its getting new people, for without them there will be no sales, no sales equals no Traveller.

People saying T5 needs a second edition is not necessarily about "bias" or "hatred"; after all, these exists a quite large list of errata compiled on these forums, and it would be good for these to be incorporated into a new edition of the T5 book at some point.

People saying there are errors in the T5 book doesn't necessarily mean they hate it.

 

[Supplement Four]

If, as I suspect damage is cumulative against npcs but not pcs then the 10+ rule isn't broken.

Just FYI, cumulative damage is not the way the rule was meant to be used. We're trying to stay away from unnecessary bookkeeping. At this point, I think the rule will survive in T5 combat. It is, of course, totally up to Marc. I like the rule, as long as weapons can roll 10+. Weapons in T5 are being given more power so that there are not a lot of 1D weapons (that seems to be reserved for archaic flint locks and arrows), but weapons like "hands" still needs to be worked out. Maybe there will be a special rule for 1D weapons--not sure at this point.

 

[aramis]

Just FYI, cumulative damage is not the way the rule was meant to be used. We're trying to stay away from unnecessary bookkeeping. At this point, I think the rule will survive in T5 combat. It is, of course, totally up to Marc. I like the rule, as long as weapons can roll 10+. Weapons in T5 are being given more power so that there are not a lot of 1D weapons (that seems to be reserved for archaic flint locks and arrows), but weapons like "hands" still needs to be worked out. Maybe there will be a special rule for 1D weapons--not sure at this point.

Perhaps Special Success could add a die?

 

[Cryton]

[m;] Keep it civil. If you feel someone is posting something inappropriate, report it. It is the board Administrations job to decide what is and is not appropriate, as laid out in the board rules. Doing so yourself, can and usually is considered Actions Detrimental to the Board (rule 6) and a violation of the rules.

By letting us do our jobs, rather than trying to do our job for us, helps stop the "toxic" atmosphere that is so prevalent on other boards from happening here.

Thank you,
Cryton [/m;]

 

[rancke]

Hans, BTW, I had sent you a PM with a question concerning an article about Nobility in Traveller. Did you get a chance to look it over?

Yes, I'm sorry for not responding in a timely manner. I did get it and I did have a look at the article. I then put it aside meaning to get back to it when I had bettert time, but failed to get around to doing that. I'm going away on holiday for a week tomorrow, but I'll try to do something about it when I get back.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

Perhaps Special Success could add a die?

A couple of problems with that. First, it happens too rarely. Second, as you know from my postings in the past, there's a problem with Special Success as Marc has written it. It gets easier the harder a task becomes.

 

[Ulsyus]

Going back to the OP, whether it's 'hatred' or just 'bias', isn't the real issue how does it look to newcomers? Many of us enjoy robust debates and some of us fling around humongous Earth-sized globs of super hyperbole when engaged in such debates ... but if that's putting off people trying our beloved game (of whatever edition) isn't that something to be concerned about? (That being the case I'm not sure what the solution is.)

You may have a point there. I've been playing Traveller on and off since a few years after it came out, but have only recently joined here. One of the first threads I saw was the one about T5 not being a game, with some interesting entries from Aramis:

Claims that T5 isn't a game will no longer be tolerated. Automatic Suspension.
Claims that T5 is unplayable will no longer be tolerated. Automatic Suspension.
Personal Attacks on Marc Miller will no longer be tolerated. Long duration points.

Maybe that was just bad luck that I saw that first, and clearly this board has been going for a while without it imploding or people sending poisonous fuzzy-felt sets to their arch-nemises on here. BUT, it did give me pause for thought to start out.

As the millionaire building contractor philanthropist know as Goat-f***ing Bob once said - "Reputation: a lifetime to build, a moment to destroy."

As my final point though, I have found the discussions to be civil, the helpfulness between citizens uplifting, and the moderation of the moderators to be very, er, moderate.

PS: For the record, I like T5 best! This is my favourite version of the game!!

 

[aramis]

As my final point though, I have found the discussions to be civil, the helpfulness between citizens uplifting, and the moderation of the moderators to be very, er, moderate.

Thanks. It really helps that all the mods and admins love Traveller.

PS: For the record, I like T5 best! This is my favourite version of the game!!

Glad you enjoy it.

 

[77topaz]

How about some rules in this general vein:

"It's not always easy to judge the emotions behind a post. If you see something that offends you, consider the possibility that the poster didn't mean it the way you're reading it. If there's a way to interpret what he said in a non-offensive manner, give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that that's how he meant it. If it worries you, explain to him what you find upsetting about what he wrote and give him a chance to explain himself. Most importantly, don't escalate.

If you're convinced that someone is being genuinely and deliberately offensive, report him. Don't flame him, and don't post complaints that could give newcomers the impression that this is what this site is all about. Let the moderators deal with him. They don't like offensive posts any more than you do."

In short: use Hanlon's razor.

 

[rancke]

In short: use Hanlon's razor.

More or less, yes, but there are reasons other than stupidity for coming across overly strong. Thoughtlessness, thinking that the other guy can take a joke. In my experience you can get away with more if you're talking to friends than if you're talking to strangers, and I like to think that fellow Traveller fans are kindred spirits, so I think one should take what people say as coming from friends.

Anyway, I think my formulation is softer than Hanlon's Razor.


Hans

 

[Daddicus]

Well, Hanson's, I'm glad you posted. I seem to have missed most of the acrimonious posts, but they're obviously around. I've been just lucky, I guess.

I do think that both the game and the players here need a little help, but not a lot. Frankly, the game was made by humans and the posters ARE humans, so I would be surprised if there weren't some difficulties.

One thing everybody could do is never use sarcasm without saying so. Or any other kind of statement that requires more than just typed words to convey. If a post is a joke, add a smiley. If a post is sarcastic, say so. (And be careful with sarcasm; use it only to make a point that does not denigrate another poster.)

The problem with forums is that we're only using 5-10% of our communication capabilities because it's words only. Any body language, nuance, tonal changes, etc., are completely lost unless made clear outside the text. So, we shouldn't use them.

When I saw your first post, I was a little confused. I haven't noticed that as much as you did. HOWEVER, because you are new both to the game and to the forums, I should have lent more weight to your statements than I did. If you PERCEIVE hatred, then no matter what the real implications might be, it's negative. And that doesn't help the game at all.

So, personally, I'm taking your criticism to heart. Thank you for it.

 

[Ulsyus]

The problem with forums is that we're only using 5-10% of our communication capabilities because it's words only. Any body language, nuance, tonal changes, etc., are completely lost unless made clear outside the text. So, we shouldn't use them.

The advantage of using English when we write posts is that it has considerably more words available to us to use than most other languages. If we take some time then it is possible to find ways of expressing nuanced thoughts and feelings.

Except for love. The ancient Greeks had far more words for that than we do. Like the Inuit have multiple words for our "snow". And the Norsemen had multiple specific words for our "torture".

Oh, also, doing this BB in Pashtun wouldn't help because I don't think there's that many Pashtun Traveller players.

Just sayin'

 

[aramis]

Like the Inuit have multiple words for our "snow".

That one's not exactly true. Inuit/inupiaq are agglutinative languages. Essentially, most of the "words" for different snow types are a single root with adjectives-as-affixes.

 

[Shonner]

All it needs is some positive attitudes

What nonsense. Not every poorly written game needs to be put on a pedestal.

 

[atpollard]

What nonsense. Not every poorly written game needs to be put on a pedestal.

True ... but each person gets to decide what goes on their pedestal.

The Traveller Book is on mine ... pound for pound my best investment in fun, ever.

Personally, I'd like to see a T5 PbP game on COTI to really demonstrate some of the reported problems and some of the reported 'fast-fun play'.
Since THAT requires a generally safe and positive environment, I support the call for a little more 'live and let live' attitude (not just towards T5 but in general).

Strictly imHo, seeing T5 played would be of even more benefit to new members and new players than anything else (although a 'Starter T5' or 'T5-Lite' might help, too).

 

[Supplement Four]

Personally, I'd like to see a T5 PbP game on COTI to really demonstrate some of the reported problems and some of the reported 'fast-fun play'.

Seconded!

 

[SpaceBadger]

Personally, I'd like to see a T5 PbP game on COTI to really demonstrate some of the reported problems and some of the reported 'fast-fun play'.

There is one already. Magnus von Thornwood's Permatic Imperium PbP is a T5 game, although we've not gotten a lot done beyond generating characters and talking about where we are going, until recently when we finally loaded up my PC's trusty Type S and lifted off, and are now in Jump space.

 

[Supplement Four]

There is one already. Magnus von Thornwood's Permatic Imperium PbP is a T5 game, although we've not gotten a lot done beyond generating characters and talking about where we are going, until recently when we finally loaded up my PC's trusty Type S and lifted off, and are now in Jump space.

One of the problems with using this sort of thing as an example of T5 play, I suspect, is that a lot of House Rules will be used.

The best of all possible worlds would be to see a game run, rules as written.

 

[Ulsyus]

Strictly imHo, seeing T5 played would be of even more benefit to new members and new players than anything else (although a 'Starter T5' or 'T5-Lite' might help, too).

I just had a vision of a group doing something like Will Wheaten's board-game show, say on You-Tube. Not an hour's long full-blown session, but tight succinct snippets, scripted but unrehearsed maybe, that run for a period of time and showcase how to do certain things: character generation, personal interaction, ground combat, handling tasks, space movement & combat, encounters with beasts & natural hazards...

Along with a T5 Starter Players Book that'd go a long way, I reckon, to helping people learn about and how to play the game.