To be blunt

[Hanson's Roughriders]

Ok Ill admit it I am a veteran GM that has always wanted to run Traveller, I have run just about every other sci-fi game and thought Traveller can do this better. So I jump in swinging, dosh out big money on T5, yes its a lot to swallow, yes its like getting punched in the face with a rule book, but it has so much potential. Yet the hate here, on its very own board (T5), can be cut with a knife. For a first time player and delver into all that is Traveller its terrible. So bad I want to chuck the game not for the rules but for the community.

So to be blunt the attitude sucks - its a good game and more than that its a toolbox that can be adapted to other games.

All it needs is some positive attitudes*, its not broken I have only touched mongoose and some old mega-Traveller stuff, the game works fine for me.

I sadly am not a man with all the answers, but I am a first time visitor to here the home of the Traveller and the home of T5. After seeing a lot of the stuff here I am thinking every time I look at this glorious clunky all encompassing book I purchased a white elephant.

Now with that off my chest - I ll jaunt over to my threads.....





*to be fair there are some people with great attitudes and helpful manner, but negativity as Douglas Adams teaches us makes star ships travel faster.

 

[rancke]

There's no hatred that I've seen, just honest criticism followed by mounting frustration over the reactions to said criticism. Such as accusations of hatred. Frankly, IMO such accusations do more to poison the atmosphere here than the criticism. I can imagine a newcomer stumbling over it and conclude, without any further examination of the evidence, that this is not a site for him.

How about, when someone comes across something that could be interpreted as malice and hatred, instead of jumping to the conclusion that it couldn't possibly be honestly meant as a help towards fixing problems and making T5 better, he asks the putative offender if that was the way he wanted it to come out? Or, better yet, jump to the conclusion that it wasn't meant maliciously, just clumsily expressed. I always do. If I'm to be offended, I want the offender to work hard to achieve his objective.

In any case, accusing someone of spouting hatred is a deeply offensive thing to do, and I suggest that it be added to the things that are out of bounds unless backed by hard evidence. I certainly wouldn't want to give hateful people carte blanche to spout their hatred here, so I'm fine with infracting genuine offenders. I just don't believe in giving carte blanche to unsupported accusations either.

HR, I'm sure you didn't really mean to be offensive, merely expressing some frustrations, but think about how it might affect someone who has posted criticism out of affection for Traveller. Are you 100% sure that it's actually hatred? If you are, you should report it, because that's not something that should be allowed to fester. But if you're not absolutely sure, I suggest you use milder language.


Hans

 

[robject]

[...] yes its like getting punched in the face with a rule book [...]

...a significantly massive rulebook

but it has so much potential. Yet the hate here, on its very own board (T5), can be cut with a knife. [...]

So to be blunt the attitude sucks - its a good game and more than that its a toolbox that can be adapted to other games.

Yes, frustration with frustration is compounding interest, isn't it?

As Hans said, it's less hatred and more frustration.

But unlike Hans said, it's more than plain frustration, because this board has lots of "classic" Traveller players. Since other editions tend to be judged based on the favorite edition, the criticism is biased.

Even biased criticism can be useful, but like you, I prefer a cooler judgement on a product.

Finally, on the gripping hand, this is a forum of fans, including a few grumpy middle-aged fans (you know who you are!). Caveat emptor.

 

[Vladika]

Ok Ill admit it I am a veteran GM that has always wanted to run Traveller, I have run just about every other sci-fi game and thought Traveller can do this better. So I jump in swinging, dosh out big money on T5, yes its a lot to swallow, yes its like getting punched in the face with a rule book, but it has so much potential. Yet the hate here, on its very own board (T5), can be cut with a knife. For a first time player and delver into all that is Traveller its terrible. So bad I want to chuck the game not for the rules but for the community.

So to be blunt the attitude sucks - its a good game and more than that its a toolbox that can be adapted to other games.

All it needs is some positive attitudes*, its not broken I have only touched mongoose and some old mega-Traveller stuff, the game works fine for me.

I sadly am not a man with all the answers, but I am a first time visitor to here the home of the Traveller and the home of T5. After seeing a lot of the stuff here I am thinking every time I look at this glorious clunky all encompassing book I purchased a white elephant.

Now with that off my chest - I ll jaunt over to my threads.....





*to be fair there are some people with great attitudes and helpful manner, but negativity as Douglas Adams teaches us makes star ships travel faster.

And you felt the need to start it up all over again?

 

[Hanson's Roughriders]

And you felt the need to start it up all over again?

Well I felt like sharing my opinion, I'm an outsider here new to traveller. We have threads trying to sell it to old timers, we have how to fix it threads I just felt like passing on the feeling I have gotten.

 

[Supplement Four]

All it needs is some positive attitudes*, its not broken...

When I read new T5 players saying something like this, I know that they have just skimmed the rules.

Play out some combat situations with the rules as written. Do a bar brawl. Check out the melee rules and the NPC rule. Then, run a combat encounter, guns-a blazing, against some enemies wearing Combat Armor.

Play this all out as written. Roll dice.

Then, get back with us.

There's no hatred that I've seen, just honest criticism followed by mounting frustration over the reactions to said criticism.

And, lots of disappointment.

 

[rancke]

But unlike Hans said, it's more than plain frustration, because this board has lots of "classic" Traveller players. Since other editions tend to be judged based on the favorite edition, the criticism is biased.

That may be true in a lot of cases, but bias isn't hatred. There's a big and significant difference. Being accused of bias wouldn't offend me anywhere near as much as being accused of being hateful.

Also, what's wrong with being biased in favor of CT? Or MT, or TNE, or any other version?

Personally, I'm not biased in favor of any particular version of Traveller, but I am biased in favor of the OTU. And if that makes me criticise Marc Miller's new version of how the Third Imperium's nobility works, I see no reason to apologise for that or for disliking the change.


Hans

 

[DonM]

Also, what's wrong with being biased in favor of CT? Or MT, or TNE, or any other version?

There is nothing wrong with that bias. But if that's the only reason you post in the T5 area (and I know it isn't for Hans), folks might want to reconsider.

 

[whulorigan]

Nobility

And if that makes me criticise Marc Miller's new version of how the Third Imperium's nobility works, I see no reason to apologise for that or for disliking the change.

Hans, BTW, I had sent you a PM with a question concerning an article about Nobility in Traveller. Did you get a chance to look it over?

(Sorry for the off-topic post).

 

[Hemdian]

Going back to the OP, whether it's 'hatred' or just 'bias', isn't the real issue how does it look to newcomers? Many of us enjoy robust debates and some of us fling around humongous Earth-sized globs of super hyperbole when engaged in such debates ... but if that's putting off people trying our beloved game (of whatever edition) isn't that something to be concerned about? (That being the case I'm not sure what the solution is.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Going back to the OP, whether it's 'hatred' or just 'bias', isn't the real issue how does it look to newcomers? Many of us enjoy robust debates and some of us fling around humongous Earth-sized globs of super hyperbole when engaged in such debates ... but if that's putting off people trying our beloved game (of whatever edition) isn't that something to be concerned about? (That being the case I'm not sure what the solution is.)

I just try to be honest. If I like something, I say that. If I don't like something, I say that, instead.

 

[Hanson's Roughriders]

I just try to be honest. If I like something, I say that. If I don't like something, I say that, instead.

TBH I have noticed that you do - repeatedly.

To get new players, this is a good thing I hear, we need to present a positive face. I mean if I wasn't part sadist at making things work I would have given up ages ago. Frankly Combat works and the rule you don't agree with is one repeated from countless other systems, one shotting NPCs makes combat unimportant. Frankly I want my players thinking hey I dont really want to get into a fight with everyone cause I can kill them, I want my players going hmm lets make sure everything is in my favor, or better yet show em a clean pair of heels.

Bias, hatred, disagree with nobility I can understand those points but complaining about the game needing a 2.0 makes people who have just purchased it go why the hell did I bother. We should be making attempts to say, hey this is a great tool box how do we use it and how do we break down the rules for new players? In the end its not how the old rusted on veterans care for a specific rule, its getting new people, for without them there will be no sales, no sales equals no Traveller.

 

[rancke]

Going back to the OP, whether it's 'hatred' or just 'bias', isn't the real issue how does it look to newcomers?

It certainly is. And as I said in my first post, I believe that it must be really off-putting for a newcomer to read a post that claims that the site is rife with hatred and malice. So I see two equally important issues here: 1) Suppressing genuine hateful posts and 2) suppressing unfounded accusations of hateful posts.

Actually, even genuine accusations aren't really helpful; reporting genuinely hateful posts is the proper way to deal with such. And I will add that the reason I don't report any isn't due to any tolerance of that sort of thing on my part; it's down to me tending to give people the benefit of the doubt if they express themselves in a dubious manner.

I'd like to take time out to assure HR that I'm not targeting him particularily. As a newcomer he's not only very welcome, but also even more entitled to the benefit of the doubt than us grognards. As I said, I'm sure he didn't mean anything harmful with his post. But I've been worried about how these complaints about criticism often gives a very bad impression, and as far as I can see in many cases an unwarranted one, and it's just his bad luck that his post was the straw that broke that particular camel's back.

Many of us enjoy robust debates and some of us fling around humongous Earth-sized globs of super hyperbole when engaged in such debates ...

Do we? Somehow I must be missing those posts, because I don't really seem to recall any. I think we all mostly tend to be quite restrained in our arguments. I agree about the debates sometimes becoming robust (nice word for it), but not to the point of flinging around gobs of hyperbole.

I know that I myself sometimes comes across as overbearing and condescending, which distressed me quite a lot when I was told, because I did not feel that way at all. I've been working on that, though, and hope that there has been some improvement.

...but if that's putting off people trying our beloved game (of whatever edition) isn't that something to be concerned about? (That being the case I'm not sure what the solution is.)

How about some rules in this general vein:

"It's not always easy to judge the emotions behind a post. If you see something that offends you, consider the possibility that the poster didn't mean it the way you're reading it. If there's a way to interpret what he said in a non-offensive manner, give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that that's how he meant it. If it worries you, explain to him what you find upsetting about what he wrote and give him a chance to explain himself. Most importantly, don't escalate.

If you're convinced that someone is being genuinely and deliberately offensive, report him. Don't flame him, and don't post complaints that could give newcomers the impression that this is what this site is all about. Let the moderators deal with him. They don't like offensive posts any more than you do."


Hans

 

[Hanson's Roughriders]

It certainly is. And as I said in my first post, I believe that it must be really off-putting for a newcomer to read a post that claims that the site is rife with hatred and malice. So I see two equally important issues here: 1) Suppressing genuine hateful posts and 2) suppressing unfounded accusations of hateful posts.

Actually, even genuine accusations aren't really helpful; reporting genuinely hateful posts is the proper way to deal with such. And I will add that the reason I don't report any isn't due to any tolerance of that sort of thing on my part; it's down to me tending to give people the benefit of the doubt if they express themselves in a dubious manner.

I'd like to take time out to assure HR that I'm not targeting him particularily. As a newcomer he's not only very welcome, but also even more entitled to the benefit of the doubt than us grognards. As I said, I'm sure he didn't mean anything harmful with his post. But I've been worried about how these complaints about criticism often gives a very bad impression, and as far as I can see in many cases an unwarranted one, and it's just his bad luck that his post was the straw that broke that particular camel's back.


Hans

I'd rather not highlight the posts that are bad, but then again I think I am sending confusing messages that there are no bad posts, but there is a bad feeling about the game. Its suffering the death by a thousand cuts. To be fair yeah this is a complaining thread complaining about complaining, but as a newcomer do I just keep my mouth shut? I don't have the benefits of 20 years + of gaming Traveller, and I don't want to buy into a game that would require me to read a library of books I would need to buy, let alone the same amount by players (who as we all fret as DMs don't read a thing!), So I get the next best thing, now I am left wondering was it all worth the bother.

Deep down I like this game the character generation, the combat the fact that I dont need to buy books on ships as I can make my own. Yet before I had even walked in the door the buzz I got from the internet was that this was a dud buy, then I cam here and pretty much had that confirmed. The fact that we needed to have a thread on saying that the game was not broken and that people should stop referring so - at the time the biggest thread here. I get it as well that there is issues here but that's all I see.

How about we think well we need to work with what we have and get new players, no new players equals no new Traveller. Frankly I was pretty wet behind the ears gamer when GDW went belly up, I thought at the time this is not a good thing. New players does not mean the old game dies it means it gets revitalized.

I guess this is what this :CoW: was made for.

 

[Supplement Four]

TBH I have noticed that you do - repeatedly.

When people bring it up, I add my my account.

To get new players, this is a good thing I hear, we need to present a positive face.

Should we lie about the condition of the game?

Frankly Combat works and the rule you don't agree with is one repeated from countless other systems, one shotting NPCs makes combat unimportant.

The NPC rule is far from the only rule where I take exception. It's one of many. T5 Combat, as written in the BBB, has lots...and lots...of problems. Otherwise, it wouldn't need a complete rewrite--that I and others have been working on.

Bias, hatred, disagree with nobility I can understand those points but complaining about the game needing a 2.0 makes people who have just purchased it go why the hell did I bother.

I spent my money on the game as well, and I've said the exact same thing.

And, I did that in the face of many people posting how bad the game is.

In the end its not how the old rusted on veterans care for a specific rule, its getting new people, for without them there will be no sales, no sales equals no Traveller.

Can "it" be about rules that make sense and don't contradict themselves, instead?

 

[Hanson's Roughriders]

Should we lie about the condition of the game?

We have had many lies here, but the biggest is that the game is broken

 

[rancke]

We have had many lies here, but the biggest is that the game is broken

'Lie' is another of those offensive words that should be used with care. Perhaps you a S4 have different definitions of 'broken'. S4's appears to be that some of the rules don't work. If he's wrong about that, simply quote and refute him. But unsupported blanket accusations of lying is offensive.


Hans

 

[David Johansen]

As much as I love T5 I can't understand the function of a sufficient number of key rules well enough to tell if it's broken. If, as I suspect damage is cumulative against npcs but not pcs then the 10+ rule isn't broken. But either way the armor penetration rule is.

On the other hand, the OP should have been here twelve months ago. If it bothers him now, I expect his head would have exploded.

 

[Vladika]

Hanson's Roughriders, a question for you.

Are you Trolling? I'm asking because I am no longer certain of the answer, your motive for joining, or your current policy of working to offend those who disagree with you about T5.

We've had this, and every other discussion you can conceive of. Several times over.

Some of us feel T5 has significant issues. S4 was nominated by his peers, and accepted by DonM, the guy in charge of errata and "fixing" what you think isn't broken. (DonM is Marc Miller's right hand man, so I think the powers that be well know T5 needs some work.)

What you ARE doing, is stirring up this hornets nest again, and it WILL, sooner or later do exactly what you claim shouldn't happen: further bashing of T5.

This issue has polarized this board for some time. It did get so bad that the evil censorship monster was let out of it's closet. At that point, both factions tacitly agreed to call it a day and retreat to neutral corners. The "war" didn't end in a victory for either side, rather an armistice.

You are correct: bashing T5 will, and has, hurt sales. What is to Marc Millers credit has been a free flow of ideas on this forum and the desire to make corrections and accept ideas and open feedback from everybody who has chosen to render them.

You aren't telling anyone, including Marc Miller, what we don't already know.

You're not going to be the "voice of reason" and teach us all how to behave. We both know how, and have chosen to moderate the extremism on both side of the issue.

So again, enlighten me as to your motive.

(BTW, I bought T5 early on and DON'T hate it, just disappointed in it, though I find much I do like.)

 

[Spaceresearcher]

I'd agree with most of the other responses here to this. Essentially most of the comments have simply been constructive critisism aimed at making the game better.

If your a first time viewer, then you seriously need to grab the 'errata' thread download for some of the rules and sections of the book to correct. Try doing all those corrections before proclaiming it's just fine. As another member pointed out, go and play it before you start hailing it. I myself tried to get T5 into the playing field but most of the people I game with are veteran Traveller players and alas it simply isn't up to scratch with them, hence why there not playing it.

T5 does provide some great new additions to the game, but only certain sections of the overall volume have shown to be of any value. That's not picking at it, that's simply a fact.

What I hope you will see, is that EVERYONE here wants it to be the best and ultimate edition as it's seeking to be. I'm looking forward to the revised edition which will hopefully see that goal become a reality.