Time dilation and the Jump Drive

[Supplement Four]

Speculate with me...

Time is altered via the effects of gravity. We know this as fact today. It's been tested with atomic clocks, one on Earth and one lifted to oribit via the space program.

The Traveller universe controls gravity. Deck plates on starships. Inertial compensators.

The Jump Drive also has something to do with gravity, as, in J-Space, gravity wells are avoided. And, the J-Drive cannot be engaged safely within a strong gravitation field.

My speculation is this. Time dilation is corrected via the jump drive as well. A field bubble protects the ship while in J-Space. The bubble also corrects the dilation effect through manipulation of the graviton.

Hm?

 

[aramis]

Speculate with me...

Time is altered via the effects of gravity. We know this as fact today. It's been tested with atomic clocks, one on Earth and one lifted to oribit via the space program.

Not gravity, but speed. It's called Time Dialation. Part of Relativity.

 

[Supplement Four]

Not gravity, but speed. It's called Time Dialation. Part of Relativity.

Wrong again, Aramis. Good gawd, you crack me up sometimes.

It is called Time Dilation, not "dialation". And, gravity has a bunch to do with it.

Let me educate you. Click Here, then click Here.

You might want to do a little googling before you try to correct someone.

 

[aramis]

Again with the semi-proven science and questionable sources, eh?

Gravitational dilation isn't fully accepted, and the experiments which claim it all have significant motion components.

Redshifting can be as easily attributed to gravity slowing photons rather than relativity. After all, we know that gravity can affect the direction of photons, and that rather than change speed, they change direction or frequency.

 

[Supplement Four]

Gravitational dilation isn't fully accepted, and the experiments which claim it all have significant motion components.

Glad to see you no longer called it "dialation".

There have been several experiements using atomic clocks in aircraft, spacecraft, and even transporting the clock to another part of the world.

Use your google.

You might stumble upon your very question:

Is there any practical proof for time dilation?

Asked by: Dharmesh

Answer

There are several direct proofs of time dilation. Extremely accurate clocks have been flown on jet aircraft. When compared to identical clocks at rest, the difference found in their respective readings has confirmed Einstein's prediction. (The clock in motion shows a slightly slower passage of time than the one at rest.)

In nature, subatomic particles called muons are created by cosmic ray interaction with the upper atmosphere. At rest, they disintegrate in about 2 x 10E-6 seconds and should not have time to reach the Earth's surface. Because they travel close to the speed of light, however, time dilation extends their life span as seen from Earth so they can be observed reaching the surface before they disintegrate.

Answered by: Paul Walorski, B.A., Part-time Physics Instructor


Hey! Are you going to take this thread off topic too! Great!

 

[aramis]

I never deny time dilation. That gravity is a cause is not fully accepted nor proven.

That dilation occurs is repeately proven. But the differences in gravitational potential can not be isolated from differences in speed, due to all experiments occuring in rotation around moving masses; different movement arm for different heights, and thus different speeds.

 

[Colin]

No Personal Attacks, If You Please.

Before you ridicule the response of others, perhaps you should read their response. Aramis' response was that time dilation due to gravitational influence remains unproven. He was not talking about time dilation due to speed, which has been proven.

You might also want to watch the tone of your posts. It is easy to come across poorly on the internet, but I will not tolerate personal attacks, including ridicule. It is Ok to attack ideas, but not the person expressing them.

 

[hunter]

Wrong again, Aramis. Good gawd, you crack me up sometimes.

Again with the semi-proven science and questionable sources, eh?

Both of you knock off the personal attacks

 

[hunter]

Glad to see you no longer called it "dialation".

There have been several experiements using atomic clocks in aircraft, spacecraft, and even transporting the clock to another part of the world.

He didn't question that it occurred...

 

[hunter]

I'm wondering what the point is. Ships in Traveller don't even begin to approach the speed of light and thus no significant time dilation effects occur. Sure over a lifetime you might have some minor accumulation but again, nothing significant.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm wondering what the point is. Ships in Traveller don't even begin to approach the speed of light and thus no significant time dilation effects occur. Sure over a lifetime you might have some minor accumulation but again, nothing significant.

I was speculating (and maybe encouraging discussion) on time dilation before and after jump. It's always a week the real universe experiences while the ship is in J-Space.

A week passes no matter which perspective one views it from. It seems that the ship actually does move faster than the speed of light when jumping through J-Space to another system, time dilation has to be dealt with in some fashion.



(PS: Hunter, since you're around, I posted a few days ago in the appropriate thread, asking to have my presence here on CotI changed back to "Supplement Four". Can I get on the to-do list, when you have time, to get that changed? Would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.)

 

[hunter]

I was speculating (and maybe encouraging discussion) on time dilation before and after jump. It's always a week the real universe experiences while the ship is in J-Space.

A week passes no matter which perspective one views it from. It seems that the ship actually does move faster than the speed of light when jumping through J-Space to another system, time dilation has to be dealt with in some fashion.

No the physics of Jump Space are different from the normal universe, the ship doesn't actually move FTL.

And valid point about encouraging discussion

(PS: Hunter, since you're around, I posted a few days ago in the appropriate thread, asking to have my presence here on CotI changed back to "Supplement Four". Can I get on the to-do list, when you have time, to get that changed? Would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.)

done

 

[Icosahedron]

AIUI, Einstein predicted that both speed and gravity would produce relativistic effects, including time dilation. The dilation attributable to speed has undergone accepted proof, whereas the dilation due to time has not yet been proven beyond doubt to exist independently (though probably it will eventually).

However, this is irrelevant to the original question that assuming the Master was right and gravitational time dilation exists, is the Jump drive likely to manipulate the effect and hence allow travel in 'real time'?

Hunter, I think SF is saying that travelling several parsecs in a week is effectively ftl travel, and might incur dilation unless something (the Jump drive) prevents it.

I would say no. I see the Jump drive more as a quantum effect, with the Jump Bubble acting like a huge Bose-Einstein Condensate, allowing the ship to quantum tunnel to its destination like a particle, thereby avoiding passage through real space and neatly sidestepping the whole issue of relativity.

And before the big guns swivel in my direction, I neither know nor care how much water this holds according to current accepted theory - it works IMTU and that's good enough for me.
If someone comes up with a better idea, I'm always willing to poach, er, gratefully acknowledge it.

EDIT: teach me to read page 2 before posting...

 

[Supplement Four]

To be honest, I was looking for some better handwavum to spread amongst my players--something that sounded a little more "real" than the standard vague explanations of how the jump drive works.

I mean, they accept it. But, the devil are in the details in a campaign, you know?

Then, I started thinking. (Not always a good thing...) Traveller tech has mastered control over the graviton in deck plates, in inertial compensators, in Air/Rafts, in floating cities of the clouds.

Could that control over the graviton also help them master time dilation?




(PS: Hunter - Thanks again for the name change!)

 

[atpollard]

If I follow the subject correctly (a BIG if), it requires LOTS of speed to create Special Relativity time dilation and it would require LOTS of gravity to create General Relativity time dilation. I would imagine that a human being could tolerate going very very fast better than he would tolerate multi-millions of Gravities of force (to slow time down for the traveller).

[The clock subject to more gravity on the surface of the Earth ticked slower than the clock subject to less gravity in orbit, right?]

If the goal were to shield the occupant from gravity (perhaps related to inertial compensation) that would speed up the traveler’s clock relative to the ‘unprotected universe’ but only by a very small amount – unless there is some very large background gravity that everything is normally subject to?



If you want to speculate about Gravity Control Induced Time Dilation, then what about the low berth?
Rather than low berth being a cryogenic process, what if it were to use high gravity levels to slow the passenger at the atomic motion level. Hence the danger that every once in a while, something goes wrong and the passenger is reduced to a paste – time to hose out the berth for the next passenger and replace that fuse.

 

[mike wightman]

Read up on what happens if you fall into a black hole. To an outside observer you never reach the singularity because as you approach it the tremendous gravity slows time to such an extent that the final seconds of your existance are spread over millenia.

To the unfortunate individual doing the falling this happens in an instant

This is, however, very much a thought experiment - I'll dig out a reference when I get the chance.

 

[pendragonman]

Gotta love relativity. Use the formulae found in any decent relativity textbook, or even Schaum's outline of advanced physics.

 

[atpollard]

Gotta love relativity. Use the formulae found in any decent relativity textbook, or even Schaum's outline of advanced physics.

I'd really rather not. I felt like I needed a nap after just reading the wikipedia links on the first page. :toast:

 

[Supplement Four]

If you want to speculate about Gravity Control Induced Time Dilation, then what about the low berth?

That's actually a very cool idea. Haven't thought of that.

Use Traveller-Tech, and control over the graviton, to actually slow down time around a subject in low berth.

Interesting. Blows the mind.



One "limit" I've seen in Traveller tech is that deckplates seem to max out around 3Gs. Maybe that's an economic issue, though. Obviously, the inertial compensators can withstand 6Gs. And, who knows the limits and specs of the grav plates used to hold up cities in the clouds on high tech worlds.



And, speaking of the graviton and Traveller tech... I've speculated before about the use and manipulation of the graviton in the ship's Jump grid (if you buy into J-Grids on Traveller ships). Energy is released from the J-Drive and travels the hull of the ship via the jump grid. Energy emitted in a certain fashion from the J-Grid is used to enter J-Space and form the jump bubble to protect the ship while in J-Space.

Thinking of that explanation of the J-Drive, I've compared it to the way T-Plates are said to work. Thruster Plates emit particles that push off themselves, not unlike the way two like poles of a magnet will repel each other.

My speculation: What if the J-Grid worked the same way? What if manipulation of the graviton was at work here?

Opposite-charged gravitons attract each other, actually condensing space. There's not a lot in space anyway, so it's easy to condence, making the distance between two linear points shorter. Thus, a meter might be condensed into a tiny fraction of the original distance. Other manipulation of gravitons sandwich the effect, so that this extremely powerful gravitational pull does not effect the orbits of planets or stars or even the next closest ship.

Thus, the Jump Bubble is made up of opposite-charged gravitons, attracting each other so much that space is warped, surrounded by a layer of like-charged gravitons that keep the effect from ripping the ship apart or dragging the nearest comet close to the ship due to the extreme gravitational forces at work.

Hmm?

 

[aramis]

Since compensation limits at 6G* in FF&S at TL15, and compensation is nothing more than artificial gravity systems designed to prevent feeling the accelerations of the ship, that 6G is the reasonable limit on normal Artificial Gravity as well.

In CT, compensation is implied.

In MT, it's a component purchased, but not rated separately; we can assume it matches the maneuver drive limits by TL.

* ISTR rules for stacking multiple installs to achieve higher. I recall pushing that envelope to 15G's, but not being able to do so for long due to lack of maneuver fuel. Of course, we also have "Grav Focused Lasers" in TNE.... which must be generating small multi-dozen G fields...