Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
What would be the government code for an Iranian-style theocratic republic? It's a representative democracy, but the elected government is overseen by a non-elected religious group and supreme leader.
Theocratic Republics
- Thread starter Andrew Boulton
- Start date
Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
I would say "D" - Religious Dictatorship
Sure Iran has some democratic elements, but at the end of the line the Religious people have the last say.
What would the UK be btw? "4" or "8" probably.P erhaps "A" considering how long Blair has been in power.
Sure Iran has some democratic elements, but at the end of the line the Religious people have the last say.
What would the UK be btw? "4" or "8" probably.P erhaps "A" considering how long Blair has been in power.
If you have seen the DGP World Builders book, it breaks down government types quite nicely. But, my favorite, democracy/religious dictatorship has to be Libya although, that more qualifies for Charismatic Dictatorship although Colonel Muammar Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi is using more elements of Islam to solidify his position when his socialist rhetoric no longer has any appeal. Here you have a country where all citizens vote in councils and these decisions flow from the bottom up and from the top down. In fact, it makes for an excellent model of Switzerland could work save for the fact that people are other freedoms - speech, assembly, fraternity, ethnic and religious rights.
For a discussion of Libyan political system: http://www.uam.es/otroscentros/medina/libya/libpolpol.htm
For a discussion of Libyan political system: http://www.uam.es/otroscentros/medina/libya/libpolpol.htm
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
You could say the same about America...
The thing is, the religious group aren't really the government - they advise, and approve, but all the day-to-day ruling is done by the elected leaders. It's a combination of 4, C, and D.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Since the religious elements approve who goes on the ballot, the democracy is as limited as it was in the Soviet Union, etc.
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
Can I suggest that we pull the plug on the comparative merits and faults of today's excuses for governments before it all gets out of hand and somebody loses an eye?
I once had an idea for a "constitutional theocracy" for one of the polities of my Celirans. The Matriarch - the high priestess of the Meya Ennah ("One Mother") faith popular among the more conservative Celirans - is the nominal head of state on Renya (the Celiran homeworld), but her power is checked by that of the popularly-elected Assembly. While the Matriarch has some power (especially since the religious system has quite alot of property), she needs the approval of the Assembly on most long-term and budgetary decisions, as well as for legislation.
Things are further complicated by the fact that the Celirans allow the use psionics, but only by priestesses (subject to taboos, regulations and superstition by the faith, ofcourse), and this means that the religious system has a clout even beyond its considerable economical power.
This government is a result of a comproimise between the two Celiran resistance movements - one religious and based on Renya's peasant population and one secular and mostly based on the urban and industrial population - who took part in liberating Renya (the Celiran homeworld) from the Solomani colonial rule in 1132, when the crumbling of the Solomani Confederacy has given an opportunity for the Celiran resistance movement and liberate their homeworld. So you get a balance of power between the Assembly and the Matriarch, with the Assembly being somewhat more powerful. Would this be a Gov 4?
Things are further complicated by the fact that the Celirans allow the use psionics, but only by priestesses (subject to taboos, regulations and superstition by the faith, ofcourse), and this means that the religious system has a clout even beyond its considerable economical power.
This government is a result of a comproimise between the two Celiran resistance movements - one religious and based on Renya's peasant population and one secular and mostly based on the urban and industrial population - who took part in liberating Renya (the Celiran homeworld) from the Solomani colonial rule in 1132, when the crumbling of the Solomani Confederacy has given an opportunity for the Celiran resistance movement and liberate their homeworld. So you get a balance of power between the Assembly and the Matriarch, with the Assembly being somewhat more powerful. Would this be a Gov 4?
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Actually that sounds like a minor variant of the British Parliamentary system pre Charles I/Cromwell replacing the King with the Church.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
I did say *Iranian-style*, rather than Iran specifically. It's a restricted democracy, true, but it's still democratic.
I believe that Vatican City is a theocracy (in the Traveller definition of rule by the priests since a true theocracy is direct rule by the god/gods - like Moses in the bible). It doesn't seem like a bad or oppressive place, even for a non Catholic like me.
That was exactly my source of inspiration: a clear-cut constitutional monarchy. Replace the king with the church, and you'll get a constitutional theocracy. The big variation of my Renya from the British model - aside from having a church instead of the king - is that the Assembly is both a legislative and executive body, which could act independently of the Matriarch; the Matriarch could veto Assembly decisions while the Assembly could choose not to ratify the Matriarch's rulings. Also, among other things, the Matriarch serves as the highest judicial authority and "high appeal court".
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On the other hand, imagine a theocracy where church officials are elected to various positions of authority (both in the church and in the state) by the flock instead of being appointed "from above". This would be an extension of how (IIRC) some of the post-Reformation sects of Christianity elect their Pastors from within the flock. In a hypothetical case, you could have a society in which each community elects its pastor; the pastors of an area form a Council of Pastors; the Councils of Pastors elect the Council of the Flock (national-level religious body and political authority); and the Council of the Flock elects the High Sepherd (the figurehead). Side by side to the Council of the Flock you would have a Council of the Wise - a non-elected body of theological scholars - which would advise the Council of the Flock. The Council of the Wise would have little official power but alot of unofficial authority.
Plankowner
SOC-13
I think it comes down to the PERCEPTION of how the government is run. Remember (and this is a good plot point) that the GOV code is assigned by the Scout Service. They look at the government (as an interested outsider) and decide which of the published lists of GOV types best fits the world in question.
If you had a planet with an Iranian type of government situation, it could be either a 4, C, or D. There might even be arguements for an A. No matter how you classify it, the government would be the same.
FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN, does the government appear to be democratic or theocratic at it's basis. Just because civil laws are based on religious laws doesn't make it a GOV-D. The opinion of the classifying Scout will be the biggest factor.
SO, to answer your question, it could be ANY of those government types; how do you want to play it?
If you had a planet with an Iranian type of government situation, it could be either a 4, C, or D. There might even be arguements for an A. No matter how you classify it, the government would be the same.
FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN, does the government appear to be democratic or theocratic at it's basis. Just because civil laws are based on religious laws doesn't make it a GOV-D. The opinion of the classifying Scout will be the biggest factor.
SO, to answer your question, it could be ANY of those government types; how do you want to play it?
Excellent point.
Another note, a republic (4) form of government with religious citizens would frequently look like a religious dictatorship (D) to a non religious observer or an observer from a significantly different religion (or from a significantly different "pole" of the same religion - such as an Evangelical Protestant in a Catholic dominated republic or vice versa.)
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
That is a good point.
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
A very good point. Kind of shows how much the Scout Service are taking the piss with the UPP.
Starport...well I've seen plenty of flames about these so..
Size, well fair enough.
Atmosphere, some interpretation required.
Hydrographics, mostly accurate
Population, again open to interpretation.
Government, perceived as Plank says.
Law Level, how big a gun you can carry?
WBH came some way to sorting this.
Tech Level, ???? Industrial base, population base, maintained level...what is it?
Now I didn't come here to lump scorn on the UPP, on the contrary I admire it greatly and love interpreting them in some wild and wooly ways. It's a fantastic GM's tool and a great way to spring a surprise on players.
The idea of the UPP being the Scout Service interpretation tickles me. Would it be possible for a UPP to be almost completely wrong?
Starport...well I've seen plenty of flames about these so..
Size, well fair enough.
Atmosphere, some interpretation required.
Hydrographics, mostly accurate
Population, again open to interpretation.
Government, perceived as Plank says.
Law Level, how big a gun you can carry?
Tech Level, ???? Industrial base, population base, maintained level...what is it?
Now I didn't come here to lump scorn on the UPP, on the contrary I admire it greatly and love interpreting them in some wild and wooly ways. It's a fantastic GM's tool and a great way to spring a surprise on players.
The idea of the UPP being the Scout Service interpretation tickles me. Would it be possible for a UPP to be almost completely wrong?
Greetings and salutations,
It is quite possible for a UPP almost completely wrong.
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"Go ahead. Raid the planet."
They should have known if I was encouraging their behavior, then something was wrong.
It is quite possible for a UPP almost completely wrong.
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- it would depend on how old the information is</font>
- is there a conflict with the world in question?</font>
- is the world, nobles, military, etc. trying to hide something?</font>
- are the aforementioned trying to keep others from the world?</font>
"Go ahead. Raid the planet."
They should have known if I was encouraging their behavior, then something was wrong.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Heh...there's definitely a scenario here:
Scout surveys world, has a really bad time, and assigns a crappy UWP, and as a result most traders avoid the place. The party are hired by the govt to find him and persuade him to change it
Scout surveys world, has a really bad time, and assigns a crappy UWP, and as a result most traders avoid the place. The party are hired by the govt to find him and persuade him to change it
Don't leave out the typo as a source of error.
Say a Scout surveys garden world ripe for colonization - but the data entry clerk transferring the report to the official database inadvertantly overwrites the entries for atmosphere and hydrology with the 0's for population, gov, law, et al. How long before the next survey of an out of the way unpopulated "vaccuum" world?
Want to send the party on a wild goose chase? Have the ex scout in the party notice the discrepancy and add a few other "clues" to dark and sinsister conspiracy going on ... let the PCs paranoia run wild and supply ideas for future adventures where there really is a conspiracy.
Say a Scout surveys garden world ripe for colonization - but the data entry clerk transferring the report to the official database inadvertantly overwrites the entries for atmosphere and hydrology with the 0's for population, gov, law, et al. How long before the next survey of an out of the way unpopulated "vaccuum" world?
Want to send the party on a wild goose chase? Have the ex scout in the party notice the discrepancy and add a few other "clues" to dark and sinsister conspiracy going on ... let the PCs paranoia run wild and supply ideas for future adventures where there really is a conspiracy.
