The Rebellion and World War One?

[jcrocker]

No, I believe you, I just took some convincing, that's all. It seems a little counterintuitive, but I suppose that is with the benefit of hindsight. Or is an artefact of the artificial nature of the event, sicne it was a plot device to further the goal of the whole MegaTraveller system.

The weapon Dulinor carried - he openly wore his ceremonial magnum revolver as was his right as an Archduke of the 3rd Imperium. Apparantly many nobles get sidearm perks when meeting with the head of state. [See comment on plot devices, above.]

 

[kaladorn]

He openly wore his weapon. The Emperor didn't *grant* him the right. The Emperor and the Nobles are a sort of balance of power. The Nobles are effectively an extension of the Imperial Will into other areas. If they cannot be trusted, then the Empire is already dead. Plus, there is some sort of Code Duello for sorting out matters of honour.

For instance, in Canada, the RCMP provides security for all foreign dignitaries. Guess who is the one exception? President of the USA. When he comes, he flies in the whole kit and kaboodle. His security are allowed to be armed. (The RCMP is not fond of that, for obvious reasons)

This is really a case where your Nobility has a basic right to be armed and to appear armed in the presence of the Emperor. It is part way mark of office and authority, part way gesture of trust, part was point of honour and respect.

Sure, once and a while you get this kind of risk. But theory holds that a Noble has to be willing to sacrifice himself to the Imperial guards and to other nobles nearby if he wants to take out the Emperor. That in itself is a deterrent. And what are you doing enfeoffing nobles who'll want to kill you and tear down the system?

The better question is who came up with the whacked IG organization? That was more of an issue than Dulinor being armed. Without that mess the whole thing would have been inviable.

 

[kaladorn]

He openly wore his weapon. The Emperor didn't *grant* him the right. The Emperor and the Nobles are a sort of balance of power. The Nobles are effectively an extension of the Imperial Will into other areas. If they cannot be trusted, then the Empire is already dead. Plus, there is some sort of Code Duello for sorting out matters of honour.

For instance, in Canada, the RCMP provides security for all foreign dignitaries. Guess who is the one exception? President of the USA. When he comes, he flies in the whole kit and kaboodle. His security are allowed to be armed. (The RCMP is not fond of that, for obvious reasons)

This is really a case where your Nobility has a basic right to be armed and to appear armed in the presence of the Emperor. It is part way mark of office and authority, part way gesture of trust, part was point of honour and respect.

Sure, once and a while you get this kind of risk. But theory holds that a Noble has to be willing to sacrifice himself to the Imperial guards and to other nobles nearby if he wants to take out the Emperor. That in itself is a deterrent. And what are you doing enfeoffing nobles who'll want to kill you and tear down the system?

The better question is who came up with the whacked IG organization? That was more of an issue than Dulinor being armed. Without that mess the whole thing would have been inviable.

 

[kaladorn]

He openly wore his weapon. The Emperor didn't *grant* him the right. The Emperor and the Nobles are a sort of balance of power. The Nobles are effectively an extension of the Imperial Will into other areas. If they cannot be trusted, then the Empire is already dead. Plus, there is some sort of Code Duello for sorting out matters of honour.

For instance, in Canada, the RCMP provides security for all foreign dignitaries. Guess who is the one exception? President of the USA. When he comes, he flies in the whole kit and kaboodle. His security are allowed to be armed. (The RCMP is not fond of that, for obvious reasons)

This is really a case where your Nobility has a basic right to be armed and to appear armed in the presence of the Emperor. It is part way mark of office and authority, part way gesture of trust, part was point of honour and respect.

Sure, once and a while you get this kind of risk. But theory holds that a Noble has to be willing to sacrifice himself to the Imperial guards and to other nobles nearby if he wants to take out the Emperor. That in itself is a deterrent. And what are you doing enfeoffing nobles who'll want to kill you and tear down the system?

The better question is who came up with the whacked IG organization? That was more of an issue than Dulinor being armed. Without that mess the whole thing would have been inviable.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
He openly wore his weapon. The Emperor didn't *grant* him the right.

Right, poor choice of words.

For instance, in Canada, the RCMP provides security for all foreign dignitaries. Guess who is the one exception? President of the USA. When he comes, he flies in the whole kit and kaboodle. His security are allowed to be armed. (The RCMP is not fond of that, for obvious reasons)

I've heard they have an 'arguement' with the secret service, and when the SS doesn't back down, the RCMP say "Well WE'VE never lost anyone..." You make your fun where you find it, I suppose.

Sure, once and a while you get this kind of risk. But theory holds that a Noble has to be willing to sacrifice himself to the Imperial guards and to other nobles nearby if he wants to take out the Emperor. That in itself is a deterrent. And what are you doing enfeoffing nobles who'll want to kill you and tear down the system?

The better question is who came up with the whacked IG organization? That was more of an issue than Dulinor being armed. Without that mess the whole thing would have been inviable.

I think both of those come under the 'plot device' heading. Strephon thinks Dul is this great, upstanding guy, and Survival Margin is full of his reasoning. Dul hits a bump in the road and tries to off his sovereign? Kind of a non-sequitor - you'd think Strephon would have mentioned something of his hopes for Dulinor's Archducy-ship to Dul...

GDW. Love the games, scratch your head at some of the details.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
He openly wore his weapon. The Emperor didn't *grant* him the right.

Right, poor choice of words.

For instance, in Canada, the RCMP provides security for all foreign dignitaries. Guess who is the one exception? President of the USA. When he comes, he flies in the whole kit and kaboodle. His security are allowed to be armed. (The RCMP is not fond of that, for obvious reasons)

I've heard they have an 'arguement' with the secret service, and when the SS doesn't back down, the RCMP say "Well WE'VE never lost anyone..." You make your fun where you find it, I suppose.

Sure, once and a while you get this kind of risk. But theory holds that a Noble has to be willing to sacrifice himself to the Imperial guards and to other nobles nearby if he wants to take out the Emperor. That in itself is a deterrent. And what are you doing enfeoffing nobles who'll want to kill you and tear down the system?

The better question is who came up with the whacked IG organization? That was more of an issue than Dulinor being armed. Without that mess the whole thing would have been inviable.

I think both of those come under the 'plot device' heading. Strephon thinks Dul is this great, upstanding guy, and Survival Margin is full of his reasoning. Dul hits a bump in the road and tries to off his sovereign? Kind of a non-sequitor - you'd think Strephon would have mentioned something of his hopes for Dulinor's Archducy-ship to Dul...

GDW. Love the games, scratch your head at some of the details.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
He openly wore his weapon. The Emperor didn't *grant* him the right.

Right, poor choice of words.

For instance, in Canada, the RCMP provides security for all foreign dignitaries. Guess who is the one exception? President of the USA. When he comes, he flies in the whole kit and kaboodle. His security are allowed to be armed. (The RCMP is not fond of that, for obvious reasons)

I've heard they have an 'arguement' with the secret service, and when the SS doesn't back down, the RCMP say "Well WE'VE never lost anyone..." You make your fun where you find it, I suppose.

Sure, once and a while you get this kind of risk. But theory holds that a Noble has to be willing to sacrifice himself to the Imperial guards and to other nobles nearby if he wants to take out the Emperor. That in itself is a deterrent. And what are you doing enfeoffing nobles who'll want to kill you and tear down the system?

The better question is who came up with the whacked IG organization? That was more of an issue than Dulinor being armed. Without that mess the whole thing would have been inviable.

I think both of those come under the 'plot device' heading. Strephon thinks Dul is this great, upstanding guy, and Survival Margin is full of his reasoning. Dul hits a bump in the road and tries to off his sovereign? Kind of a non-sequitor - you'd think Strephon would have mentioned something of his hopes for Dulinor's Archducy-ship to Dul...

GDW. Love the games, scratch your head at some of the details.

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Fellow citizens,

The question has misjumped! I asked if the situation after WWI was close to what happened at the end of the Imperial Succession War. Not what the start was. Archduke Ferdinand has been assassinated. Imagine WWI without the Yanks. Resources and manpower drained to nothing or destroyed. Able bodied men gone. Four of five empires destroyed (Ottmann, Austria-Hungary, Germany & Russian), utter chaos in eastern europe.

In the Shattered Imperium, there were no Yanks or anything close. The war would of not been won as much as abandoned. Each side declaring pyrric victories as their fragment further collapsed. They would be utterly helpless against any invaders that came to "eat the carcass." As ironic as it seems, the Solomani may be the only force that keeps the Imperium from being torn into bloody fragments as it desires the Imperium and has a human centric view. (Sparta conquering Athens)

Or would the non humans take over? Vegans???

I'll toss this out and let the opinions begin again.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Fellow citizens,

The question has misjumped! I asked if the situation after WWI was close to what happened at the end of the Imperial Succession War. Not what the start was. Archduke Ferdinand has been assassinated. Imagine WWI without the Yanks. Resources and manpower drained to nothing or destroyed. Able bodied men gone. Four of five empires destroyed (Ottmann, Austria-Hungary, Germany & Russian), utter chaos in eastern europe.

In the Shattered Imperium, there were no Yanks or anything close. The war would of not been won as much as abandoned. Each side declaring pyrric victories as their fragment further collapsed. They would be utterly helpless against any invaders that came to "eat the carcass." As ironic as it seems, the Solomani may be the only force that keeps the Imperium from being torn into bloody fragments as it desires the Imperium and has a human centric view. (Sparta conquering Athens)

Or would the non humans take over? Vegans???

I'll toss this out and let the opinions begin again.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Fellow citizens,

The question has misjumped! I asked if the situation after WWI was close to what happened at the end of the Imperial Succession War. Not what the start was. Archduke Ferdinand has been assassinated. Imagine WWI without the Yanks. Resources and manpower drained to nothing or destroyed. Able bodied men gone. Four of five empires destroyed (Ottmann, Austria-Hungary, Germany & Russian), utter chaos in eastern europe.

In the Shattered Imperium, there were no Yanks or anything close. The war would of not been won as much as abandoned. Each side declaring pyrric victories as their fragment further collapsed. They would be utterly helpless against any invaders that came to "eat the carcass." As ironic as it seems, the Solomani may be the only force that keeps the Imperium from being torn into bloody fragments as it desires the Imperium and has a human centric view. (Sparta conquering Athens)

Or would the non humans take over? Vegans???

I'll toss this out and let the opinions begin again.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[mike wightman]

In the situation you've just described there's one thing missing.
The British Empire still exists and, via the Royal Navy, has control of maritime trade to Europe.
Unless you take Britain out of the equation then the situation post war would have one dominant superpower in Europe.

By the way, did you know that the Virus that struck the world after the end of WW1 killed more people than the war

 

[mike wightman]

In the situation you've just described there's one thing missing.
The British Empire still exists and, via the Royal Navy, has control of maritime trade to Europe.
Unless you take Britain out of the equation then the situation post war would have one dominant superpower in Europe.

By the way, did you know that the Virus that struck the world after the end of WW1 killed more people than the war

 

[mike wightman]

In the situation you've just described there's one thing missing.
The British Empire still exists and, via the Royal Navy, has control of maritime trade to Europe.
Unless you take Britain out of the equation then the situation post war would have one dominant superpower in Europe.

By the way, did you know that the Virus that struck the world after the end of WW1 killed more people than the war

 

[aramis]

Iron Wolf: THe discussion has not only NOT misjumped, but demanding that it come "Back on Topic" when it has naturally flowed in response to your question... how Gauche!

Back on Page one, most of us Rejected your argument, and now are exploring the why of it. Basically, there are a few parallels; but really it's far more akin to a Chinese Civil War, or even WWII. We are still exploring the relevant issues which clearly make it NOT a WW I parallel.

Ongoing conversation:
So if the Nobles are mostly armed, why didn't THEY off Dulinor; it is the throne room, there should have been a dozen or more sycophants around. Or was the Imperium really that Tired? Or was Strephon REALLY that bad? Or that tight with Dulinor?

 

[aramis]

Iron Wolf: THe discussion has not only NOT misjumped, but demanding that it come "Back on Topic" when it has naturally flowed in response to your question... how Gauche!

Back on Page one, most of us Rejected your argument, and now are exploring the why of it. Basically, there are a few parallels; but really it's far more akin to a Chinese Civil War, or even WWII. We are still exploring the relevant issues which clearly make it NOT a WW I parallel.

Ongoing conversation:
So if the Nobles are mostly armed, why didn't THEY off Dulinor; it is the throne room, there should have been a dozen or more sycophants around. Or was the Imperium really that Tired? Or was Strephon REALLY that bad? Or that tight with Dulinor?

 

[aramis]

Iron Wolf: THe discussion has not only NOT misjumped, but demanding that it come "Back on Topic" when it has naturally flowed in response to your question... how Gauche!

Back on Page one, most of us Rejected your argument, and now are exploring the why of it. Basically, there are a few parallels; but really it's far more akin to a Chinese Civil War, or even WWII. We are still exploring the relevant issues which clearly make it NOT a WW I parallel.

Ongoing conversation:
So if the Nobles are mostly armed, why didn't THEY off Dulinor; it is the throne room, there should have been a dozen or more sycophants around. Or was the Imperium really that Tired? Or was Strephon REALLY that bad? Or that tight with Dulinor?

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Fellow Citizens,

I simply started the question of another ending to the Shattered Imperium besides the virus. Most of the discussion has moved to the initiating events and the logic gaps of it.

The Spanish Flu...another very curious parallel. I find it interesting that Classic Traveller was very simular to the late 19th/early 20th centuries with empires. The next stage was the stupid/inevitable conflagration as they competed outside of colonies and instead turned to war, i.e. MegaTraveller.

If this parallel course had been kept, what would the next stage of been? The British-American war of 1928-1932 over free trade in China but in reality who rules the seas? The Japanese Empire, how would of it reacted and what parallels could of been plotted to keep the setting fresh?

It's a thought experiment more than anything and I wonder if there were parallels used in the creation of the background story of MegaTraveller. GDW was a historical wargaming company at its heart. Classic Traveller was the Nineteenth century. I'm just wondering if at its roots, Mega Traveller was based on historical facts. If GDW had remained together, would the Traveller universe eventually gone through WWII?

As I said it's a thought experiment and I wonder if the parallels I see are my delusions or if others are seeing a loose patterning on historical events.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Fellow Citizens,

I simply started the question of another ending to the Shattered Imperium besides the virus. Most of the discussion has moved to the initiating events and the logic gaps of it.

The Spanish Flu...another very curious parallel. I find it interesting that Classic Traveller was very simular to the late 19th/early 20th centuries with empires. The next stage was the stupid/inevitable conflagration as they competed outside of colonies and instead turned to war, i.e. MegaTraveller.

If this parallel course had been kept, what would the next stage of been? The British-American war of 1928-1932 over free trade in China but in reality who rules the seas? The Japanese Empire, how would of it reacted and what parallels could of been plotted to keep the setting fresh?

It's a thought experiment more than anything and I wonder if there were parallels used in the creation of the background story of MegaTraveller. GDW was a historical wargaming company at its heart. Classic Traveller was the Nineteenth century. I'm just wondering if at its roots, Mega Traveller was based on historical facts. If GDW had remained together, would the Traveller universe eventually gone through WWII?

As I said it's a thought experiment and I wonder if the parallels I see are my delusions or if others are seeing a loose patterning on historical events.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Fellow Citizens,

I simply started the question of another ending to the Shattered Imperium besides the virus. Most of the discussion has moved to the initiating events and the logic gaps of it.

The Spanish Flu...another very curious parallel. I find it interesting that Classic Traveller was very simular to the late 19th/early 20th centuries with empires. The next stage was the stupid/inevitable conflagration as they competed outside of colonies and instead turned to war, i.e. MegaTraveller.

If this parallel course had been kept, what would the next stage of been? The British-American war of 1928-1932 over free trade in China but in reality who rules the seas? The Japanese Empire, how would of it reacted and what parallels could of been plotted to keep the setting fresh?

It's a thought experiment more than anything and I wonder if there were parallels used in the creation of the background story of MegaTraveller. GDW was a historical wargaming company at its heart. Classic Traveller was the Nineteenth century. I'm just wondering if at its roots, Mega Traveller was based on historical facts. If GDW had remained together, would the Traveller universe eventually gone through WWII?

As I said it's a thought experiment and I wonder if the parallels I see are my delusions or if others are seeing a loose patterning on historical events.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[jcrocker]

Armed Nobles, Lack of Shooting Dulinor - added to my list of things that don't quite make sense.

And as much as I like MegaTraveller, the 'key incident' never really held water for me.

Historical Parallel - WW 1 shouldn't be the best example, since the Imperium was [at least in theory] one nation, ovbiously Europe wasn't. A really nasty civil war with multiple factions would be a better comparison, but I can't think of one right now. There should have been a few more constraints on the fissuring on the Imperium, but obviously it fell apart quickly enough.

Would they come to WW2? After the Hard Times, it would take a century or two to rebuild enough to think about such things, I believe. You can theorize any of a number of things in the meantime.