The problem with T5
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Supplement Four
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Agreed. From what I've seen, T5 will give you more skills, but you won't see too many above 5. You'll end up with a 4 or so in one skill, then you'll have 2-3 Level-3's, some Level-2's, and a bunch of Level-1's.
Gents,
I'd really be disappointed if T5 took Warhamster's Big Bucket o' Dice route. While 2D6, 3D6, D20, 2D10, and the like are okay, 45D6 is not an improvement.
And, while I like WJP's system and am salivating in antcipation for its posting as a single document at Freelance Traveller, I doubt I'd ever use it. Why? Well, the answer is rather complicated so please bear with me.
I played RPGs with wargamers. We were wargamers before, during, and after our role-playing days. When we roll a die we want to know if we've hit right then and not after the GM rolls his die. Most tasks are pretty binary; did I hit him?, did I open the jammed hatch?, is the powerplant warming up?, and the like.
The only time we used player vs GM die rolling, or 'opposed' die rolling, was when the task wasn't binary. Tasks like interrogating a NPC or researching a data bank or interpreting sensor data can result in varying levels of 'truth' and thus require a larger number of 'results' within the task die roll. For example, the nifty MT research rules allow for results like 'inconclusive', 'improper result' and 'insight' depending on how the player's roll interacts with the GM's roll.
The idea that a player would roll his die, read off the number, and then ask the GM whether he hit his target or not would be silly to our wargaming background. (This doesn't mean WJP's rules are silly, far from it.)
The player should know if he hit immediately so he can swiftly return to role-playing the encounter. While the die roll was a neccessary to provide an answer, it should be handled as quickly and as seamlessly as possible. Requiring extra rolls and selecting dice for this and that add to the intrusiveness of the die roll vis a vis the actual role-playing.
We're rolling a die to create an answer and not to create a role-playing interlude. The role-playing exists before and after the die roll while the die roll is a break in the role-playing, albeit a necessary one. We don't need to 'extend' or 'inflate' the anticipation inherent in the die roll by roping the GM into the process. The anticipation and fun comes before and after the die roll as we role-play the events leading up to and flowing away from the binary 'fork' the die roll provides.
Simply - and not quite accurately - put, we're more interested in role-playing than playing with die rolls. The amount of GM-Player and Player-Player interaction doesn't need to arise from their rolling dice 'against' each other.
Just my 0.02Cr.
Have fun,
Bill
I'd really be disappointed if T5 took Warhamster's Big Bucket o' Dice route. While 2D6, 3D6, D20, 2D10, and the like are okay, 45D6 is not an improvement.
And, while I like WJP's system and am salivating in antcipation for its posting as a single document at Freelance Traveller, I doubt I'd ever use it. Why? Well, the answer is rather complicated so please bear with me.
I played RPGs with wargamers. We were wargamers before, during, and after our role-playing days. When we roll a die we want to know if we've hit right then and not after the GM rolls his die. Most tasks are pretty binary; did I hit him?, did I open the jammed hatch?, is the powerplant warming up?, and the like.
The only time we used player vs GM die rolling, or 'opposed' die rolling, was when the task wasn't binary. Tasks like interrogating a NPC or researching a data bank or interpreting sensor data can result in varying levels of 'truth' and thus require a larger number of 'results' within the task die roll. For example, the nifty MT research rules allow for results like 'inconclusive', 'improper result' and 'insight' depending on how the player's roll interacts with the GM's roll.
The idea that a player would roll his die, read off the number, and then ask the GM whether he hit his target or not would be silly to our wargaming background. (This doesn't mean WJP's rules are silly, far from it.)
The player should know if he hit immediately so he can swiftly return to role-playing the encounter. While the die roll was a neccessary to provide an answer, it should be handled as quickly and as seamlessly as possible. Requiring extra rolls and selecting dice for this and that add to the intrusiveness of the die roll vis a vis the actual role-playing.
We're rolling a die to create an answer and not to create a role-playing interlude. The role-playing exists before and after the die roll while the die roll is a break in the role-playing, albeit a necessary one. We don't need to 'extend' or 'inflate' the anticipation inherent in the die roll by roping the GM into the process. The anticipation and fun comes before and after the die roll as we role-play the events leading up to and flowing away from the binary 'fork' the die roll provides.
Simply - and not quite accurately - put, we're more interested in role-playing than playing with die rolls. The amount of GM-Player and Player-Player interaction doesn't need to arise from their rolling dice 'against' each other.
Just my 0.02Cr.
Have fun,
Bill
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Bill,
Which system of mine are you talking about?
The only system I've created that uses opposed rolls is System 1123 for Classic Trav, and that hasn't been referenced here.
The system I reference above with the link to Freelance Traveller is another system I created--a fix for T4.
But, I don't advocate use that in T5. I'm in the camp that wants to get back to a 2D6 roll--something like CTI or some modification of MT.
There is no opposed rolls in CTI, if that's the system you're referencing. CTI is just a way of measuring your 2D roll in Classic Trav.
Your 8+ target number for combat, when using CTI, stays the same.
I'm just confused on which you are referring.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Just to be clear, I advocate a system that gives the GM the choice. I, personally, keep target numbers from my players wheneve possible. It heighten's the drama. But, there are some things that a character may have a good guage on, and I'll just say, "Roll 6+, and you've got it."
BTW, I'm under the impression you're talking about CTI...
You can use either system with CTI. You want your players to know if they hit? Fine. It doesn't effect how CTI plays out.
And, since CTI was designed to fit, plug-n-play with Classic Trav, a player always knows his to-hit number anyway (8+).
I just didn't want you to think that a player *wouldn't* know his target number when using CTI.
That's completely up to the GM.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Just curious...where are you getting this? I just read over all the posts in this thread, and I can't figure out what brought you here.
WJP,
What brought me here? It's in the middle of the first post in the thread. Your post by the way.
Let me quote:
The other thing a commented on; the Big Bucket o' Dice, was from another post that listed the number of dice going up with the difficulty of the task.
I like your system, I've said so repeatedly. I also explained why my group wouldn't use it. Different strokes and all.
Have fun,
Bill
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
Traveller Diceless Edition = Best
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Oh, gotcha. Reading your post made me think you somehow thought CTI was a system where the GM would roll random difficulty.
I was sure you understood it, since you've been such a supporter of it--but the way your post reads made me think differently.
Absolutely, different strokes. It's all about what makes you have fun--and come back playing.
My confusion, though, is that your explanation on why your group wouldn't use CTI centers around the GM hiding task numbers--that you and your group of wargamers like to know the target number upfront.
Understandable. But, why wouldn't your group CTI...that's what I'm not getting from your explaination. CTI is a system--pretty much binary--like the MT/DGP system or even throwing 2D6 in CT and adding mods.
Play your game the way you want, of course--I was just curious.
Thanks for the link WJP, I checked out the link,
The ideas of difficulty codes and breaking away from the d3 I can relate too, but your system needs more book keeping with the experience score
(why not just multiply the skill and leave it at that, I don't understand the need to keep track of the orignal skill level anymore,)
I can see the logic, but it seems to change the look too much, anyway not here to shoot you down, I can see what people would like in that system,
but I'm trying to keep my system as rules lite as poss, it's gitty and quick, and still scans with the look of classic and t4, (which was the plan, and pain in the butt to fix) and because this is more stat dependant your character will feel it more when they get hit,
it also gives Trav its own unique system,
with the bonus that you can port over a classic character with no need to mod,
The ideas of difficulty codes and breaking away from the d3 I can relate too, but your system needs more book keeping with the experience score
(why not just multiply the skill and leave it at that, I don't understand the need to keep track of the orignal skill level anymore,)
I can see the logic, but it seems to change the look too much, anyway not here to shoot you down, I can see what people would like in that system,
but I'm trying to keep my system as rules lite as poss, it's gitty and quick, and still scans with the look of classic and t4, (which was the plan, and pain in the butt to fix) and because this is more stat dependant your character will feel it more when they get hit,
it also gives Trav its own unique system,
with the bonus that you can port over a classic character with no need to mod,
Agreed. From what I've seen, T5 will give you more skills, but you won't see too many above 5. You'll end up with a 4 or so in one skill, then you'll have 2-3 Level-3's, some Level-2's, and a bunch of Level-1's. </font>[/QUOTE]This is a big problem I have with the old T5 chargen. My character sheets tend to be a tad disorganized, so scanning for a skill amidst a page of them is annoying. The nice thing about skills-poor CT was that your character was sharply defined by his small handful of skills.
"Life pursuits" (or some variant) lets me shrink my character's skill list by focusing on the ones I think are important. It does put control in the players' hands, but hopefully it's a reasonable amount of control. (Even in CT/MT/T4 I remember we tailored characters to fit their role).
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I don't think you quite followed it correctly. Under KBv2.0, all you do is this...
On the character's sheet, wherever you're notating the character's skill level, you'll also notate experience.
AutoPistol-2 (6)
That's it.
If you don't want to notate experience, then just remember that all skill levels are use x3 when figured for tasks.
It's been a very popular system for T4.
I don't use it anymore, as I'm no longer a T4 player (and KBv2.0 is designed specifically for T4), but when it came out, there were a bunch of Trav players who used it, liked it, and played with it.
I only post it as an alternative to re-inventing another T4 system.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
?
Two steps--
(1) Change the difficulty codes to get rid of the half die. 2D/3D/4D/5D/6D/7D
(2) Use experience (Skill x 3) instead of Skill by itself when making task throws.
(everything else about KBv2.0 is optional)
You're saying that changes the look of T4 too much?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Another alternative for you, HtS, since you're playing T4 (and if you don't want to use KBv2.0) is to use Marc's T4.1 system--the system he's using for T5 at the moment.
There's no half-die, and the IHTIT rule goes a long way to making skills and stats even.
It's a pretty damn good system--if you're playing T4. (Again, it's not what I'd want to see for T5, for various reasons, one of which is listed here--but, if you're playing T4, you could do a lot worse than using Marc's T4.1 system).
You can get it here:
http://www.traveller5.com/
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I guess I don't follow.
The skills are the same.
If you have AutoPistol-1, and increase in skill level, you go to AutoPistol-2. Then to AutoPistol-3. Then to AutoPistol-4, etc.
The only thing that is different using KBv2.0 is how you use those skills when figuring your task number (Skill + Stat in T4). KBv2.0 makes that Exp + Stat instead of Skill + Stat.
The reason for this is that skills are so understated in the T4 system. You've got a Edu-9 Medical-1 paramedic rolling better than a fully trained doctor who has Edu-6 Medical-3.
There's a real problem with that.
KBv2.0 fixes this by increasing he weight of skills. It's kind of the reverse of the MT system where stats are devalued by a factor of 5 (Stat/5). Since a character's full stat rating is used in T4, KBv2.0 increases the importance of skill...so that if you have Medical-3, it's contributing 9 points to your target number.
Under T4 as written, the Edu-9 Medical-1 paramedic throws 10- for tasks. Under KBv2.0, this character would throw 12- for tasks.
Compare this to the Edu-6 Medical-3 guy, who throws 9- under T4 as written. Under KBv2.0, this person throws 18-. Thus, a character's experience makes much more of a difference in the tasks he attempts.
It's pretty simple.
You're throwing 1D for every skill level!
And, you think that keeps the "look" of T4 better than what I describe above?
Check out that T4.1 task system that Marc Miller did. That might be more to your liking (and both KBv2.0 and MM's T4.1 system BOTH "keep the look" of T4 more than what you're proposing.).
Ok, I never said I was playing t4, I don't understand where you got that, just working on the rules
and the rest you are just nitpicking,
in my system characters from both classic and t4 still look the same, no mods, which means you can port over any character etc, same numbers just diffrent res,
I like classic
the thing I like about my system is it's grittiness, I think it lends itself better to a more hard sci setting, (would like to play ALIEN with this) that and it's quick and has it's own flavour, don't know another that uses the same system,
btw forgot to add, multi ones rolled cancel each other out, so there is always a chance,
and the rest you are just nitpicking,
in my system characters from both classic and t4 still look the same, no mods, which means you can port over any character etc, same numbers just diffrent res,
I like classic
the thing I like about my system is it's grittiness, I think it lends itself better to a more hard sci setting, (would like to play ALIEN with this) that and it's quick and has it's own flavour, don't know another that uses the same system,
btw forgot to add, multi ones rolled cancel each other out, so there is always a chance,
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
OK, brother, run with it.
So do I. It's my favorite.
There are a lot of systems out there where a player throws a lot of dice then looks for specific results.
Heck, Traveller used something like that for damage. In T4, you would throw, say, 5D of damage dice, but the KE rule would allow you to pick only the highest three for damage.
If you used autofire in T4, you'd throw double your weapon's normal allotment of damage dice but only pick the highest three.
Heck, I was looking at a game just yesterday that uses a system like that. It's called Burning Wheel. You can check it out here:
http://www.burningwheel.org/
And, the DUNE RPG had a system like that as well.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Hey, look, I'm going to back off on this topic. Far be it from me to tell you how you need to play your game--do whatever blows your hair back.
But, I'll part ways with this one little bit of advice you can choose to look into or ignore.
If I were you, changing the system the way you are, I'd take a good hard look at some statistical analysis on what you're doing.
For example, and average character in CT and MT and T4 is a character that has Stat-7 Skill-2.
Under MT, that character will make an Average difficulty roll 92% of the time (2D for 4+).
Have you checked wht you're doing--do you know what effect you're making on the odds when the dice are thrown?
I'd look real hard at that, if I were you.
You know I knew you were going to say something like that, but no non of these use the same system, roll and keep is common, as in 7th sea, L5R, brave new world, (btw dune just reused the system last unicorn used for their version of star trek) etc... there are loads,
but non use the very same system here,
