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The problem with T5

(T5 is being play-tested, and this is meant as constructive criticism.)

(T5 designers--you want to hear what people think? This is what I'm thinking...and I want to like this game sooooo bad.)


My biggest complaint about T5 can be described using an example--


You're in a MT game. Things are hot and heavy. It's a desperate situation. Your character may die. Combat. Drama.

----> You roll to-hit, flinging your dice out there in the middle of the
table. <----


And, then you look at the GM. Worried. Tension. "Did I hit, ref? What happened? TELL ME!"

Then the GM goes on to describe what happened.

THIS IS DRAMA, MAN! That's the fun of it. A good GM is a good narrator--a good story teller.

That's the type of game you find yourself remembering 10 years down the road.


Now, compare that with a T5 game. Things are tight. Rough. Lots of combat. And, your character still may die.

But...

----> You roll to-hit....and you freakin' immediately know whether you hit
or not. <----


Most of the drama is gone.

You're not as into listening to what the GM describes (because a good GM, under the MT system, won't tell players whether they hit or not--he'll just describe what happened) because you already know the outcome.

You've already read that book.

You know the ending.


======================
Summary
======================
You see, with T5, you're robbing the game of its drama. You're taking away one of the GM's tools to make it a worthwhile game.

The only way I can see around this is to have the GM make all the task rolls. But, (1) that's a lot of crap the GM shouldn't have to deal
with--he's got enough to do. And (2) Players like rolling their own dice (I know too many of them who have their own personal "lucky dice").


The T5 game designers really need to pay attention to this criticism. I know I'm not the first to voice it. And, what's going to happens is that people will buy T5, play it, and it will be "OK", instead of "GREAT"....and they won't know why. They'll just know the game session wasn't as cool as what they used to play.


C'mon, T5 designers. Fix this sucker before it hits the masses. Don't turn out an OK game when you have the ability to give us an INCREDIBLE game.

I vote that you do everything you can to make T5 the most bad-assed game that ever existed.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Perhaps you would care to illuminate me on where it was you saw the current T5 task system?

The one posted over on www.traveller5.com is years out of date.
I saw the years out of date one. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt that it's changed a whole lot from that one.

If you know something different, then clue me in.

I'd love to be wrong about what I said above.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
No, I was hoping you knew.
No, sorry, I haven't seen the latest. But, I'd bet money that the system isn't too far off from what you see on the T5 site. It will be some sort of add stat + skill then roll lower on a number of dice.

God, I hope they change this--the GM needs the opportunity to hide difficulty from his players when necessary.
 
Robject has indicated that the massed hatred has caused MWM to reconsider the T4.1 task system from inclusion in T5. No replacement has yet been seen.

The points I made were basically on the same line.

As a GM, I want players rolling the same thing EVERY TIME; the T4.x task system fails this. Heck, SW-D6 and WoD fail this, but at least they put the number of dice rolled at the fingertips and outside the difficulty numbers.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
Robject has indicated that the massed hatred has caused MWM to reconsider the T4.1 task system from inclusion in T5. No replacement has yet been seen.

The points I made were basically on the same line.
I knew I wasn't the only one feeling this way.

Thanks for posting the info--I like to hear that MWM is aware of the situation.

As a GM, I want players rolling the same thing EVERY TIME; the T4.x task system fails this. Heck, SW-D6 and WoD fail this, but at least they put the number of dice rolled at the fingertips and outside the difficulty numbers.
I actually really like the Star Wars D6 system (albeit, it's not Traveller). I think it's one of the best I've ever seen.

A player rolls his task, knowing his difficulty (we used the random difficulty option). Then, the GM rolls the difficulty roll.

This back-and-forth dicing...We had some bad-ass games using this method.

But, it's definitley not Traveller, and I wouldn't advocate its use with Traveller.

Like you, Traveller needs to be some sort of 2D6 system--maybe something like CTI or a version of the DGP/MT task system.

Heck, even unmodified DGP/MT would be better than T4.1.
 
As far as I can tell -- and I haven't been told, and I haven't seen stuff newer than last summer's go-round -- Marc is still on track with a modified version of T4's task system, with some research into a 2d6 adaptation.

Apparently, this is not an arbitrary decision. As you might remember, the task system and how it integrates with the things he wants Traveller to be able to do has been on his mind for ten years. At least.

Apparently, 2d6 might or might not be powerful or expressive enough for T5. Apparently, a simplification of the T4 system packs more oomf in it than the older systems, and probably for many reasons and uses.

I'm assuming Marc will post the task playtest when it's ready, and maybe we'll be able to see why he is offering it as a useful task system, and why its existence is justified. Then you can explain -- calmly -- why it isn't desireable.

Until then, our speculations tend to be vaporous and futile. FUD.

And for the record, it wasn't any mass uprising from the populace that moved Marc to look into using a 2d6 adaptation. It was Hunter's polite suggestion.

So if you're the fuming and spewing type, save your venom for when you've got something to complain about. We didn't know what to complain about regarding alien race generation until we had the beastie in our hands. Likewise Small Craft gen. Addendum: And both have benefitted from our playtest input.

Valid playtest will require that you try to curb your knee-jerk reactions and calm your T4 Trauma.
 
Originally posted by robject:
Then you can explain -- calmly -- why it isn't desireable.
I'm up for that.

I tend to vote with my pocket book anyway. I've got enought CT stuff to last me until I die. If I don't like T5, I just won't buy it--like I haven't bought T20 or GT.

Valid playtest will require that you try to curb your knee-jerk reactions and calm your T4 Trauma.
Sound advice.

Count me in.
 
Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
Then you can explain -- calmly -- why it isn't desireable.
I'm up for that.

I tend to vote with my pocket book anyway. I've got enought CT stuff to last me until I die. If I don't like T5, I just won't buy it--like I haven't bought T20 or GT.

</font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely. Forgive my rant.

In the end, we vote on these things in cash.

It's nice to have some input before the print run, and the tension to balance requirements for the sake of improvement and appeal is high.
 
Originally posted by robject:
Forgive my rant.
Nothing to forgive.

I've been around gamers for years. They're an opinionated, hard-headed bunch. Sometimes you've got to treat 'em like junior high-schoolers, or else they'll run over you.

You just keep doing what you're doing--I'd make the same rants, over and over, if I were in your shoes.

Say, whaddaya got now? Liasion-3 ?

W.
 
Here is something I posted awhile ago at the travellerdownport yahoo site

This is my solution to the system res problem for the old T4, but could work well for a newer version of this game

(forgive the humor)
_________________________________________________


I have returned!, for I have travelled afar and discovered that
indeed the universe is curved for I have arrived at the very point
from which I began!,........either that or my hyperdrive leans a
little to the right

anyway I'm here now,

I've just got around to reading Mark's (alberec) post and that got me
thinking about T4 ( wait I can hear them, the ghosts of good games
past, "a pox on you Miller, aaaa pooooox!" they wail) it must rank as
one of the worst game systems ever, it's juvenile (in a bad way) in
it's clumsy and inapt mechanic, it was meant to be a step forward
from the original traveller, but instead took a larger step backwards
and fell on its butt, (I'm guessing it was on a larger pair of stilts
at the time),

so anyway I started firing up a few of those neuron thingies in an
attempt to come up with what may be a solution
to the worst sinner, the task resolution, you see the problem is how
to make the stats relate to the skills, not easy to do in an elegant
way with the numbers concerned,

now I must warn you THIS IS UNTESTED I'm shooting from the hip on
this one but I think this gives a better curve overall

You must still roll under your related "STAT + SKILL" like the old
T4, (this also makes it compatible with CT for stat and skill numbers)

but with one of the following difficulty levels

Simple 1D
Routine 2D
Average 3D
Challanging 4D
Formidable 5D
Extreme 6D
Impossible 7D

looks tough hu?
well this is the new bit, you don't just add your skill to your stat,
your skill level is now also a dice pool, you add your skill dice
(equal to the level of skill you have )
to the difficulty dice level,

you then roll "all" the dice (both difficulty dice and skill dice)
and keep only the number of dice equal to the difficulty level, you
choose which dice to keep

so if you have Pilot-3 and you did something Challanging you would
roll 7D
(pilot skill-3 + Challanging difficulty level 4 = 7D) but only keep
the lowest 4 dice
(because Challanging is difficulty level 4)

if you had Pistol-4 and shot at something at a Formidable range you
would roll 9 dice and keep the lowest 5 dice
( Formidable is difficulty level 5)

you must always keep the number of dice equal to the difficulty
level, your skill rating simply gives you more dice to choose from,
thats it, just a simple patch,

So what do you think?

(I may sort out guns and armour next)
_____________________________________________

So...watyathink?
 
Well HtS, I suspect it would make those task rolls easier. If you bumped up the number of dice rolled per difficulty level, it might even eliminate the need for the "This Is Hard!" rule, which is needed to prevent the characteristic-heavy munchkin-ness related to T4 characters.

It would also require skill levels to be at CT and MT levels, rather than T4/T5 levels (which can easily be 7 for primary skills, and reach as high as 15).
 
Or:

I'm going to roll an Impossible task with my Skill-15 guy.... here's my 23 dice...
 
HtS: I didn't think T4 could be made worse. I have just been proven wrong.
 
HtS,

My apologies. This is getting a little mean-spirited, and I really hate that.

I started it--I shouldn't have.

You were just offering your own opinion.

Again, my apologies.
 
Just popped back to see...

and hu, you seem to be missing the point,
this is a work in progress (can't fix everything at once, char gen on list)

skills were going to max out at around 5,
as in the classic sense, (I mean wtf!? ,never seen anyone max out to 15 even in t4?!, )

I don't mind a stat maxing at 15, (even if it reflects superhuman degrees)

at the end of the day just try it, and try not to dump other system flaws t4 has on it,
 
(I mean wtf!? ,never seen anyone max out to 15 even in t4?!, )
Robject was talking about T5--a character will get more skills in T5.

at the end of the day just try it, and try not to dump other system flaws t4 has on it,
If you're just looking to fix T4, there's a very popular fix that you can get here:

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/task/kb20.html

This is a T4 fix that I wrote back in the day, and it's been extremely play tested (and there are percentage charts) by many, many T4 players.

Even though T4 has declined in poplularity somewhat, I still get an e-mail or two about it from time to time.

So, if you want an alternative to reinventing the wheel, you might want to check it out.
 
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