The problem with Steve Jackson Games
- Thread starter Seanr451
- Start date
My only thing about SJGames is that the 4th Edition books have been pushed back, even though I don't plan on buying them for quite a while. That and, after a year, I still haven't gotten that adventure for JTAS published in exchange for a membership. (LKW says he's busy, and while he likely is, I'm getting impatient.
Pull the other one, it has bells on it.
Steve wrote at least two 'Daily Illuminators' regarding the accident and mentioned it in others too. Given that you profess some knowledge of SJGames if just to bitch about their publication schedule, it seems rather queer that you didn't 'know' about Mr. Haring's accident. It must of been an oversight on your part. After all, only an utterly callous wretch would know the SJGame scheduling problems in such detail while both overlooking the 'Illuminator' columns and calling the injured party in question a clown.
As for bad mouthing you, I needn't bother. You're tarring yourself quite well enough.
So, again, Put Up Or Shut Up. Write materials, submit materials, encourage others to do so or keep your frothing cakehole firmly shut.
By the way, the corebooks are still not entirely released. Space isn't out, neither is Martial Arts. Kromm has told several parties who are actually interested in writing materials - instead of simply bitching about things - to wait until for the release of some rules when their suggested projects required it. Oddly enough, it seems you can't write a space adventure for 4e until Space 4e actually is out. And G:Traveller is included in that catagory.
Bill
I don't generally read the illuminator.
Despite being ignored by SJG when I email them regarding submitting material for that joke e23 I have still created quite a bit of Gurps 4th edition. You're welcome to check it out on my website.
Not going to shut my mouth and quit posting. Don't like it? Quit reading my posts. The more you flame me the more I'm going to post.
No one is suggesting that you shut your mouth. We all are only taking issue with what you have to say on one topic.
Sean,
I generally read your posts. When they deal with topics other than SJGames, they are informative and helpful. It is only when you start flogging the greasy spot that used to be a dead horse that I take issue. I even check your website regularly, for the same reasons I read your posts.
As for supposedly 'flaming' you. I called you on your statements that Mr. Haring was a 'clown' and that SJGames is 'incompetent'. I am not the only one to do so. Neither of your opinions has any basis in reality and the one regarding Mr. Haring was very objectional, even borderline sadistic.
Don't like us pointing out that you have an irrational opinions concerning SJGames? Don't post your irrational opinions concerning SJGames then.
Bill
Preface: I normally avoid this topic... because I dislike some specific cases of SJG mishandlings, and am not fond of GURPS, though I used to be... but I felt compelled to respond to this thread...
The problem with SJG is that they are too quick to announce a deadline and products.
When hiring freelancer hobbyists, this is a bad choice. It's one of their biggest buisiness model frustrations. I'm STILL waiting for CW VDS for the new edition.... what, 4 years after it was announced for "next year"?
They've been that way for 20 years. They have survived a lot.
And it is possible that SJG, out of professional courtesy, is going to let GT take a knee to let T5 get a foothold; he's that kind of guy when not being described as "the muchkin from hell with the glasses."
Further, MWM might have quietly pulled the plug, and SJG decided not to make a stink; I don't know.
SDH has always been a reasonable chap. If he didn't respond, it's probably because he didn't get the post, either to the spam killfile or by not being able to post a sane and measured response.
SJ, likewise, is one of the best selling game designers of all time. He's done THREE major RPG's, each setting standards for the industry: The Fantasy Trip, Toon and GURPS. He's got loads of popular game designs. He sheparded his company through a full-on attack by the Secret Service. He has worked with other industry leaders for years. He's said to be vital to GAMA.
I'm noted for vitriol... but this is a case where, seanr, you've crossed into ad-hominym. If you're going to make assertions, at least give credible supports for those assertions.
SJG makes one major error: giving dates before they know they can deliver. But that isn't incompetence, it's hopefulness. It hasn't put them out of buisiness; 30+ years in buisiness (1982-present) proves SJG is not run by the incommpetent.
The problem with SJG is that they are too quick to announce a deadline and products.
When hiring freelancer hobbyists, this is a bad choice. It's one of their biggest buisiness model frustrations. I'm STILL waiting for CW VDS for the new edition.... what, 4 years after it was announced for "next year"?
They've been that way for 20 years. They have survived a lot.
And it is possible that SJG, out of professional courtesy, is going to let GT take a knee to let T5 get a foothold; he's that kind of guy when not being described as "the muchkin from hell with the glasses."
Further, MWM might have quietly pulled the plug, and SJG decided not to make a stink; I don't know.
SDH has always been a reasonable chap. If he didn't respond, it's probably because he didn't get the post, either to the spam killfile or by not being able to post a sane and measured response.
SJ, likewise, is one of the best selling game designers of all time. He's done THREE major RPG's, each setting standards for the industry: The Fantasy Trip, Toon and GURPS. He's got loads of popular game designs. He sheparded his company through a full-on attack by the Secret Service. He has worked with other industry leaders for years. He's said to be vital to GAMA.
I'm noted for vitriol... but this is a case where, seanr, you've crossed into ad-hominym. If you're going to make assertions, at least give credible supports for those assertions.
SJG makes one major error: giving dates before they know they can deliver. But that isn't incompetence, it's hopefulness. It hasn't put them out of buisiness; 30+ years in buisiness (1982-present) proves SJG is not run by the incommpetent.
Aside from a discussion of "Where the universe is going" mega-plotlines a couple of years ago, Marc leaves the GT line in my hands. He has occasionally requested alterations of illos or text, but nothing major (I have a pretty good feel for what he will accept). He once remarked to me that with GT all he has to do is cash the checks : )
Loren:
Definitely did miss it... Don't care much for GURPS, and less for GT, and was openly hypothesizing...
I may not like it, But I do realize it's been a major cash source for SJG, and not a small one for MWM, either, in terms of game industry sized numbers.
The thread title piqued my interest... and the content pissed me off. Completely ad-hominym, ill-informed, and/or paranoid comments.
If the license hadn't been renewed, SJG would not have made a public stink, if I guess right... Just a quiet apology to the fans.
Definitely did miss it... Don't care much for GURPS, and less for GT, and was openly hypothesizing...
I may not like it, But I do realize it's been a major cash source for SJG, and not a small one for MWM, either, in terms of game industry sized numbers.
The thread title piqued my interest... and the content pissed me off. Completely ad-hominym, ill-informed, and/or paranoid comments.
If the license hadn't been renewed, SJG would not have made a public stink, if I guess right... Just a quiet apology to the fans.
It is the most common "error" of the business world. So common that one should never take such dates too seriously.
Since I'm a sucker for business/marketing topics....
As to product price. Target market is everything, I state the obvious. A hardcover book at $40 is dirt cheap from a cost of publication perspective and lower than or equal to the typical price of computer/console games. Of U.S. consumer psychology, a $15-$20 price point is the typical magic point, i.e., the don't think about it but buy point. Hard to reach for a hardcover book. For hardbound books that appeal to a loyal fan following, especially ones in their early to mid-thirties, an $80 price point seems very acceptable. The $100 and over price point is often psychologically unattractive. You are more likely to get someone to buy 3 $40 books than a box set of the three priced at $100. It's all perception but marketing and selling is very much about perception.
As to PDFs of works out of print. The profit on such works I'd imagine are very low since the price points seem to be $5, $10 and $15 max for such offerings. The business, accounting and legal headaches may just not be worth the trouble for the return. For example, I can't imagine a good accountant or lawyer charging less than a $100 an hour for their time. The business question then is, how many units do you need to sell to recoup these fixed costs and loss opportunity costs for spending time on having the pdf's put together (instead of some other project), even if fans scan them for free. The point being, there is a lot of overhead/cost and lost opportunity costs in business in addition to product production and labor.
Just one explaination of why SJG may not be idiots or bad business men after all.
That is certainly the advantage that I thought that Traveller would benefit from when I heard that GT was in the works. However, it has been up to individual referees to do the extradicting and very few of the standard GURPS products also reference Traveller (only Mars & marginally Space) as far as I could see. What I would want to see in the Fourth Edition is perhaps a more comprehensive inclusion of Traveller in all different worldbooks.
Sometimes, we tired old Refs do occasionally like to be spoonfed new ideas...
What's wrong is the lack of theoretical expansion of the GT universe, it remains trapped in CT mindset with foreshadowing of future Traveller history and what I would like to have seen a build up from CT into a brand new presentation of the future much as MT broke with CT. Here was a fantastic way to illustrate the best of Traveller - that being the worlds of tomorrow and all we got was 1950s Tech plus lasers/fgmps...
I had high hopes only to find that some childish things like the world books (exception Glisten), Humaniti & Star Mercs thrown in. Having said that there are some really first rate GT products: First In, Rim of Fire, Nobles, Sword Worlds. I wonder why more thought was not put into producing more of this kind rather than the former.
Whereas, I can say that I am happy with every GDW/DGP product that I ever owned as it met consistantly high standards...ok, maybe, not Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium...
SJG is company with a long established reputation in the gaming world and they could see what sold and what did not. Plus I am sure they have got feedback. So, what gives? (rhetorical question)
Sometimes, we tired old Refs do occasionally like to be spoonfed new ideas...
What's wrong is the lack of theoretical expansion of the GT universe, it remains trapped in CT mindset with foreshadowing of future Traveller history and what I would like to have seen a build up from CT into a brand new presentation of the future much as MT broke with CT. Here was a fantastic way to illustrate the best of Traveller - that being the worlds of tomorrow and all we got was 1950s Tech plus lasers/fgmps...
I had high hopes only to find that some childish things like the world books (exception Glisten), Humaniti & Star Mercs thrown in. Having said that there are some really first rate GT products: First In, Rim of Fire, Nobles, Sword Worlds. I wonder why more thought was not put into producing more of this kind rather than the former.
Whereas, I can say that I am happy with every GDW/DGP product that I ever owned as it met consistantly high standards...ok, maybe, not Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium...
SJG is company with a long established reputation in the gaming world and they could see what sold and what did not. Plus I am sure they have got feedback. So, what gives? (rhetorical question)
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
You have obviously missed the other thread on these very boards, where I announced that the GT license had been renewed. </font>[/QUOTE]While I am a die-hard CT/MT player and have no intentions of going with the GURPs Traveller ruleset... I'm glad to hear that your license has been renewed!
Even as a CT loyalist, I will say that GURPs Traveller material is very well written, and I have used 1 or 2 of the source books as background material for my own CT campaigns.
Loren, I do have one 'small' suggestion for you and the GT thing: when you make future source boooks for GT, umm why not consider doing what QLI and D20 is doing.... they write ALL their D20 material to be nearly 90% backwards-compatible with Classic Traveller? Do you know what that means? It means that their customers are not just limited to D20 players, but it includes the vast spectrum of the old Classic Traveller players.
Really, the majority of the source books from SJG are already somewhat compatible with Classic Traveller. All you have to do is once in a blue moon you'd write into your product like "Oh, and THESE are the corresponding stats for this starship for those who wish to use this in CT"
Simple as that... and then your GURPs Traveller products now becomes much more appealing to any campaign still using the Classic/MT rules.
I got the 4th edition rules for GURPS, just one thing I have't been able to get a hold of was any sort of Monster manual. There are recipes for creating opponents however. To make an Orc for example, you take the career template of a Barbarian, fill out a character sheet and then make the adjustments for orc, found in the Fantasy Book and then give the creature its weapon. It took me half a day to create an entry for Orc. You want something thats ready to play and throw at the PCs.
One interesting question is what happens if you include the GURPS Traveller Setting as part of the Infinite World's campaign, and what quanta would you put it in? An interesting speculation might be that it was Centrum Agents that saved the Emperor from the assassin. Of course Travellers Tech Level is way above that of the Home Timeline and Centrums. Generally Infinity's policy is to stay away from alternates like the GURPS Traveller setting, as the Imperium might easily be able to duplicate parachronic projector technology. The Traveller Earth (Terra) has already been conquered by the Imperium. Now Homeline circa 2028, doesn't want Imperium Starships built as conveyors, invading their Earth.
One interesting question is what happens if you include the GURPS Traveller Setting as part of the Infinite World's campaign, and what quanta would you put it in? An interesting speculation might be that it was Centrum Agents that saved the Emperor from the assassin. Of course Travellers Tech Level is way above that of the Home Timeline and Centrums. Generally Infinity's policy is to stay away from alternates like the GURPS Traveller setting, as the Imperium might easily be able to duplicate parachronic projector technology. The Traveller Earth (Terra) has already been conquered by the Imperium. Now Homeline circa 2028, doesn't want Imperium Starships built as conveyors, invading their Earth.
etherflyer
SOC-12
Yup. Bought some computer books for my niece this summer in Beijing: Chinese editions of standard SAMS books. 30 RMB (about $5) for a book that costs $50 in Canada, and that includes the cost of translating the book. CDs that cost $30 in Canada for 10 RMB (the same CDs -- I like Chinese music). DVDs that Sony sells for $40 going for 15 RMB (couldn't buy any, though, as my Mandarin isn't good enough to follow without subtitles).
These were legitimate products, not back-street pirate copies. There's a lot of mark-up happening somewhere in the publication chain...
