The New Twilight Sourcebook

[Olivera]

As an avid Twilight 2000 fan, I was surprised to hear that a new Twilight sourcebook is in the works. However, I have major reservations about what I have heard so far about the new Twilight book.

1) Why is it set in the past rather than the future?

Twilight versions 1 and 2 appealed because they describe the horror of world war 3 occurring in the near future. Setting the new Twilight book in the past destroys the 'what if?' scenario that was a major draw of the old versions.

People also loved Twilight versions 1 and 2 because it allowed characters to get hold of the latest military gear (and even equipment that was just on the drawing board). Setting the new Twilight book in the year 2000 (now four years in the past) restricts the game to weapons that were historically available at that time. The old twilight let characters get their hands on state of the art equipment, the new twilight book only allows equipment from the past. For example, the new Twilight book rules out use of the Stryker armoured vehicle, F22 Raptor or OICW rifles. Are people going to buy new weapon and vehicle sourcebooks if they exclude equipment developed during the last seven years?

Setting a new Twilight book in the past also smacks of laziness. If it is set in the past why buy it rather than just using version 1 or 2 books?

2) Why does it use T20 rules?

Part of the original Twilight's appeal was it's accurate portrayal of modern day combat - this necessitates use of a custom rules system. Basing a new Twilight book on D20 rules is downright laughable. Original Twilight fans loved the game because of it's realism. How do character classes, levels and traits fit in with that? Simply put, D20 rules have no place in a game that is meant to accurately depict modern warfare. Can the D20 system used in the new Twilight accurately model API/HE/HEAT/APDU/HEDP/ICM/WP/etc ammunition? Can it model the damage characteristics of different calibers? The recoil characteristics of individual weapons? The penetration characteristics of a round at different ranges? The different reload rates of bolt action, pump action, lever action and semi-automatic weapons? Indirect fire from mortars? The stabilization properties of different tanks? Reactive and spaced armour on vehicles? I doubt the D20 system can do any of this, yet that is what players want in a Twilight system.

3) Will the new Twilight book look more attractive and professional than the older Twilight products?

I have studied recent qli/rpgrealms D20 products, and in my opinion the artwork, layout, typesetting and production values of these products lags far behind most of the original twilight books, most noticeably version 2 of Twilight 2000. Can the new Twilight 2000 book offer better artwork than that found in the core version 2 rulebook? Can it offer better vehicle illustrations and colour templates than the version 2 vehicle handbooks? Again, I reckon the new Twilight book will be inferior in these areas.

To sum up, what will the new Twilight 2000 book offer me over versions 1 and 2? The original twilight players loved the 'what if' timeline and it's depiction of modern combat, yet the new twilight book is set four years in the past (and counting) and uses a wholly inappropriate rules system.

As an avid and long term Twilight fan, I feel that the new book is not what original Twilight players want.

 

[Nearside]

Wow, what a great thoughtful post...

I find it hard to disagree. I really liked the old Twilight system, though we tweaked it a little in our games.

In fact, we found ourselves using a variation of it in our Traveller games around the same time...

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by Olivera:
laziness

That was my first thought.

Then I figured that if QLI think they can make a profit selling it to a mix of completist collectors (let's face it, most RPGs aren't bought to be played) and D20 types who like the setting, well they're welcome to give it a go. It's not like anyone is forced to buy the book.

Still, I would also quite like to see a bold and inventive military RPG set in the year 2020.

 

[TKalbfus]

Twilight 2000 is now an alternate history, it is set in the Year 2000 in an alternate history, in that history the Cold War did not end and in fact exploded. Perhaps someone though the Soviet Union was crumbling and decided to kick in the door and the whole thing would come tumbling down, well they kicked it in too soon. The Soviet Union wasn't ready to go dying without a fight, it new its situation was hopeless with SDI being developed, so its only chance was to strike fast and hard while it still had a numerical superiority in conventional weapons over the NATO alliance. The Soviet Red Army and its Warsaw allies had their "asses kicked" and the NATO troops pressed their advantages too far and crossed into Soviet territory, this act unleashed the first use of nuclear weapons since the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The US retaliated in proportion to the first strike and then the Soviets reretaliated...

 

[Erik Boielle]

Twilight 2000 v2.2 already was explicitly an alternative history.

Its charm for me these days is a sorta funny nostalgia for those exciting days when details of russian hardware were just starting to become clear in the west, and Tom Clancy was still writting thrillers about defecting soviet sub captains.

Nout wrong with still telling that story.

Go out and play some Operation: Flashpoint to remind yourself what it was like to have a worthy opponent.

And theres the thing.

You can't easily update the scenario without reaching some time in to the future.

A three way war between the US, EU and china over the worlds remaining oil supply, or something?

You could do that, I suppose, but its not really immediate, and its not really Twilight anymore either.

So while possibly T2K has now become an alternative future like Cyberpunk (well, eighties on steriods cyberpunk) and Steampunk (Call the genre Clancypunk?) its still kinda cool.

 

[TKalbfus]

Well actually T2K is an alternate present, that is the way I'd like to play it. I'd like to play T2K set in June 16, 2004 just like today. Except the today in that world is not the today that I am writing this message. In the today of that world, the USA is a wreck, most likely power coverage would be spotty. In Westchester County from which I'm writing, you can climb a hill and see what's left of New york City in the distance. I suppose the people of my community in that alternate history would really hate the Russians, and even more so the French, because they were supposed to be our allies. A lot of people would have lost relatives 7 years ago, and many more would have died in the ensuing years. Besides the immediate deaths from the nuclear blasts, there was the radiation sickness that followed, and the disease and plague that was left untreated, then there were the bandits and the breakdown of modern society. Much of New York State was rural and the people here would have to move back to the farmland, the 8 million of us that are left. A number of county governments would survive after a fashion with national guard troops here and there. I think by this time a state government would have reformed; the natural inclination is toward the democracy that we were used to, though perhaps there are some warlords who would say otherwise. We would pull together and organize, take back our country and send out heroes to fight the bad guys.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

You foget that post Twilight their are no heros only people trying to suvive who later generasions will embeleish (motivasions if not actions) to create heros for future generations.

and D20 Twilight is nothing but a marketing ploy by the Borg of RPG's to drag all gaming down to the lowest choman denomator, why make it a stand alown game when you could just do it as a sorcebook for Modern and make sales off Modern and T2K players and ripoff two demographics insted of just parts of them.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Olivera:
2) Why does it use T20 rules?

Part of the original Twilight's appeal was it's accurate portrayal of modern day combat - this necessitates use of a custom rules system. Basing a new Twilight book on D20 rules is downright laughable. Original Twilight fans loved the game because of it's realism. How do character classes, levels and traits fit in with that? Simply put, D20 rules have no place in a game that is meant to accurately depict modern warfare. Can the D20 system used in the new Twilight accurately model API/HE/HEAT/APDU/HEDP/ICM/WP/etc ammunition? Can it model the damage characteristics of different calibers? The recoil characteristics of individual weapons? The penetration characteristics of a round at different ranges? The different reload rates of bolt action, pump action, lever action and semi-automatic weapons? Indirect fire from mortars? The stabilization properties of different tanks? Reactive and spaced armour on vehicles? I doubt the D20 system can do any of this, yet that is what players want in a Twilight system.

Funny, I heard the same things when we announced the development of T20.

Hunter

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by 313:
D20 Twilight is nothing but a marketing ploy by the Borg of RPG's to drag all gaming down to the lowest choman denomator, why make it a stand alown game when you could just do it as a sorcebook for Modern and make sales off Modern and T2K players and ripoff two demographics insted of just parts of them.

That would be interesting except for the fact that we don't own d20 Modern and thus make nothing off the sales of that book, and the fact that Twilight isn't based off of the d20 Modern rules...


Hunter

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

Sorry for the venom of my last post but I'v seen what D20 did to "Legend of the Five Rings" the game whent from storys to be told to monsters to be slay and tresure to steal (only in kimonos), thankfully T20 never made it to my neck of the woods so I have not bean exposed to munchikins trying to pass off a dungen crawl as Traveller ,I know the old hands can run a real Traveller game with T20 but their are so few of us (around my part of the world)that i'd be more likily to find a game of space munchikn, so the idear of D20 claming an other old favorite (infact the first RPG I ever played) kind of got to me

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by Erik Boielle:
can't easily

So?

Do it the hard way, then. That's why we pay money for professional product.


[edit: I don't wish to imply that QLI set T2020 in 2000 out of laziness. There are other, perfectly good reasons to do so. And it's not like I have wires in Hunter's head to tell me what he's thinking. However, as a general point about the industry, I'm underwhelmed by the words "can't easily". In a saturated, struggling market publishers have to do better than that. "can't easily" just isn't good enough.]

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by 313:
thankfully T20 never made it to my neck of the woods so I have not bean exposed [...]

If you don't know what you're talking about, why are you posting?

 

[TKalbfus]

313 said,

"You foget that post Twilight their are no heros only people trying to suvive who later generasions will embeleish (motivasions if not actions) to create heros for future generations."

"and D20 Twilight is nothing but a marketing ploy by the Borg of RPG's to drag all gaming down to the lowest choman denomator, why make it a stand alown game when you could just do it as a sorcebook for Modern and make sales off Modern and T2K players and ripoff two demographics insted of just parts of them."

Who says? I think heroes are created by the times they live in. If the times are not extrodinary, there are no heroes, just people earnint a living. There was a movie a few years back called "The Postman" starring Kevin Cosner. Basically a hero is created just by someone who wants to deliver the mail. The postal service is symbolic of the United States of America. The varous warlords don't want nationalism returning, because that would threaten their hold on their feifdoms. The Twilight scenario is a "light" nuclear war. There is enough destruction to break down American society, but not enough to destroy the American Character. What's left of America, with the major cities gone is the conservative hard-fighting core who are as stubborn as ever. Those people who wanted to give peace a chance have died, those who did not want to fight the maurauding warlords have succumed to them. The only people left who are not slaves are those willing to fight for their freedom and survival. A hard environment produces some hard characters, and those are what heroes are made out of.

The people trying to survive have no time to analyse how the war started or what the lessons of it were, they have to fight for their space. Those who carry signs, protest, and put up passive resistance are simply not going to survive, their time has come and gone. If there are any underlying causes that are thought about, i will be that the Russians did it, or the Commies, whichever you prefer.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

Their are heros in all times and places doing extrodenery things every day, they art the medico how save lives the police who prevent you from becoming victoms of herendous crimes the fireies who prevent your home feom burning to so much ash, the plublic serveant who sais no to crouption and incoptance in his or her department. but bacause they do thease things every day they go unnoticed and unapreacated, it is only when we nead "Heros" do we create them from those who all along deserved our thanks and some times thouse who did not setout to do any thing more noble than make their way in the world.

and "The Postman" movie (witch i enjoyed a grate deal)was not half as good as the book

 

[Badbru]

Also note that the "postman" character in both the book and the movie didn't "want" to deliver the mail. On the contrary he was a filthy opportunist who found that by pretending to deliver the mail he was given a warm bed and a hot meal (and in the movie a hot chick ) Later he may have changed his attitude's but they were not so noble initially. Not that I'd consider nationalism, (in my opinion the scourge of the modern world)to be a particulrly noble trait anyway.

 

[paladin2019]

Originally posted by Olivera:
For example, the new Twilight book rules out use of the Stryker armoured vehicle, F22 Raptor or OICW rifles. Are people going to buy new weapon and vehicle sourcebooks if they exclude equipment developed during the last seven years?

Ummm, no Strykers is a bad thing? The major benefits of the Stryker are only realized in formations. They are basically LAV 25's with a .50 cal or MK19 (no 25mm) and a lot of radios. They don't really add anything but a name to a game based on a small patrol with 1 or 2 vehicles.

F-22's? When have high performance combat aircraft ever been a factor in T2K?

The OICW. Great, now I need batteries in addition to ultra-rare ammo. The logistics of this weapon are along the lines of those for the G11. Most of the weapons will have been tossed aside due to lack of ammo and over-building.

2) Why does it use T20 rules?
<snippage>

Can't argue with most of this. A couple of idiosyncrasies of the genre added to the basic d20 rules should resolve most of these concerns.

 

[TR]

Fortunatly for any Twilight fan who hates the high tech gadgetry of the OICW (OSW, etc) the weapon by 2000 was still bogged down in testing and more testing... and with a suggested price tag of 25,000 to 30,000 per copy (and that's just the weapon) it's not something one is going to use every day after the bombs fall.

Although it would be kind of funny to see a gamer go through an entire adventure just to find one 20mm HE shell... I shudder to think what the 20mm ammo would cost per round, would be a astronomical sum to be sure.

Until Later

TR

 

[ecalupig]

And imagine the angst of the player who's character would have to shoot off that golden bb. Worse yet...missing. Hehehehe

Originally posted by TR:

Although it would be kind of funny to see a gamer go through an entire adventure just to find one 20mm HE shell... I shudder to think what the 20mm ammo would cost per round, would be a astronomical sum to be sure.

Until Later

TR

 

[getamungstit]

The whole concept of reloaded ammo in Twilight: 2000 was never fully fleshed out to my liking. Were the boys and girls of the 5th Infantry Division in Kaliz actually shooting home-made black-powder propelled lead castings through their M16s? If so the idea is ludicrous. The M16 is a bad enough weapon to maintain with high quality factory made ammo and certainly wouldn’t work with black powder.

Maybe the Kalashnikov type assault rifles could handle black-powder ammo and even then after a magazine or two it would be back to reloading by manual cocking. Even with an AK you would have to clean out a huge amount of gunk after a few magazines.

In Twilight: 2000 it became a simple act of collected spent brass and like magic you would have STANAG standard ammo by reloading. But brass is easy to get it’s the high quality propellent, projectiles and primer that are a bit harder to find lying around on the ground. Without huge factories turning out high quality propellent you would have to make it yourself. So rather than just policing up the spent casings it’s digging in the dirt for Potassium Nitrate, Sulfur and Charcoal to make black powder. To mention the even harder to make primers…

The G11 wouldn’t be the only weapon put out of service. If using black powder ammo just about every self-loading weapon would be out of service.

It would be back to bolt action if you’re lucky and muskets for the unlucky. Which wouldn’t be that hard to make as there are plenty of well made rifled barrels lying around the place in useless modern weapons.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by A. Gubler in the 24th Century:
The whole concept of reloaded ammo in Twilight: 2000 was never fully fleshed out to my liking. Were the boys and girls of the 5th Infantry Division in Kaliz actually shooting home-made black-powder propelled lead castings through their M16s? If so the idea is ludicrous. The M16 is a bad enough weapon to maintain with high quality factory made ammo and certainly wouldn’t work with black powder.

Maybe the Kalashnikov type assault rifles could handle black-powder ammo and even then after a magazine or two it would be back to reloading by manual cocking. Even with an AK you would have to clean out a huge amount of gunk after a few magazines.

In Twilight: 2000 it became a simple act of collected spent brass and like magic you would have STANAG standard ammo by reloading. But brass is easy to get it’s the high quality propellent, projectiles and primer that are a bit harder to find lying around on the ground. Without huge factories turning out high quality propellent you would have to make it yourself. So rather than just policing up the spent casings it’s digging in the dirt for Potassium Nitrate, Sulfur and Charcoal to make black powder. To mention the even harder to make primers…

The G11 wouldn’t be the only weapon put out of service. If using black powder ammo just about every self-loading weapon would be out of service.

It would be back to bolt action if you’re lucky and muskets for the unlucky. Which wouldn’t be that hard to make as there are plenty of well made rifled barrels lying around the place in useless modern weapons.

I'd say bolt action and Maxim style machine guns. Both are late 19th century weapons (1871 for the cartridge-firing bolt-action with blackpowder ammo) But you can't re-use barrels since IIRC the minimum useful rifle caliber for a BP weapon is around 9-10mm.

Michael