The March of Atheism

[Icosahedron]

OK, right from the top, I don't want anything posting here that will get this thread plunged into the pit. Keep it focused; keep it Traveller.

I was reading my new copy of 101 Religions today and it got me thinking: what if there was a Dark Empire, with an Atheist background. How would it most likely handle religions within or beyond its borders?

Would it attempt to stamp them out? infiltrate them? ignore them? take them over? would it depend on the religion? if so, in what way?

How would the religious communities cope with atheist overlords?

 

[jfetters]

That is an interesting concept. I am guessing it depends on the level of authoritarianism in the society. In the Traveller mold, the government would be a religious dictatorship (except in this case the "religion" would be atheism). And off the top of my head, those governments tend to high law levels anyway, based on world generation procedures (IIRC, law level is 2D6 + Gov - and I can't remember what Gov code represents Religious societies).

And to reiterate, proceed with extreme caution on this topic.

 

[Captain Midnight]

I was reading my new copy of 101 Religions today and it got me thinking: what if there was a Dark Empire, with an Atheist background. How would it most likely handle religions within or beyond its borders?

Would it attempt to stamp them out? infiltrate them? ignore them? take them over? would it depend on the religion? if so, in what way?

How would the religious communities cope with atheist overlords?

It's really going to depend on the nature of their belief, and on how central it is to their core self-image. If the Empire believes that "There is no such thing as the divine, and attempts to say that such things actually exist are profoundly wicked", then they'll be more vigorous about their antagonism to religious belief than a group that is atheistic in a manner only tangential to their belief that they are suited to rule. If they base their rule on "We thumped you before, and we'll thump you again if you don't do what we tell you", the religious beliefs of minorities or subject groups will be less important.

That's not to say they won't be monitored, as religious ideas can be an important catalyst for revolution. They may be imperfectly understood by those monitoring, which can lead to flawed strategies for keeping order, but doesn't necessarily have to.

The religious communities may elect to pursue some form of resistance, which might be covert or overt, and may be violent or nonviolent, depending on the tenets of the particular faith. A faith that places a high esteem on those who give their lives in its defense is less likely to covertly resist, while a faith that places a high value on peace is more likely to resist nonviolently (see Gandhi for one example, and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. for another). If the faith holds that the events of this life are inconsequential in comparison to those of the next phase of existence, then they may even discourage resistance, as being overly attached to the trappings of this world would be unwise.

 

[Major B]

Judging from history, religious organizations tend to go underground when confronted with a government that does not tolerate their beliefs.

If the government did not allow religious expression or only tolerates certain ones, then I'd expect underground organizations to be formed. If the government persisted in their persecution it would tend to have the opposite of the intended effect - while some would be persuaded to at least stop showing their beliefs, others would have their religious conviction strengthened when confronted with persecution. This would promote individuals who would be recognized as examples of religious virtue, and this would tend to attract more followers to their religion.

Historical dynamics of this phenomena are the Christians in the Roman Empire (before Constantine) and also in parts of India between Islam and Hinduism. I'm sure there are more that just don't come to mind right now. The end effect would (I think) be a more polarized population and you might see the same type of regional separations and balkanization that happened in India and resulted in Pakistan and Bangladesh splitting off.

If the dark empire was smart maybe they would try infiltration or some other method rather than brute force, but in the end I can't think of an example of any government successfully forcing any group to stop in their beliefs. The odds of an atheist government doing so are even more slim than most historical examples because the atheists do not have a substitute belief system to offer.

 

[sid6.7]

well

well the only examples we have of this are the old Soviet ,China and N. Korea
Nations, ALL religions suffered under those regimes. even still china
today is only 50% atheistic in nature...so one might conclude that
evenutally atheism looses ground.


however i was able to attend a catholic service in Hong Kong
a few years ago...and the gov't observation people attending
the service with badges and stuff was a bit un-nerving...i dont
know if that would be exactly atheism or just hard core politics.
and no i'm not catholic i went with a friend.

so in your dark empire theme it could really be anything you wanted
but i think it should lean to the "dark" side.....

my source on China's numbers was the DEC 2007 issue of Nat.
Geographic.

i hope i was gentle...i tried to be...

 

[Renaissance Man]

A faith that places a high esteem on those who give their lives in its defense is less likely to covertly resist, while a faith that places a high value on peace is more likely to resist nonviolently (see Gandhi for one example, and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. for another).

More recently, we could take the non-violent resistance of the Buddhist monks of Myanmar, who spearheaded a general protest against the regime based on more than just religion.

 

[Captain Midnight]

Judging from history, religious organizations tend to go underground when confronted with a government that does not tolerate their beliefs.

They also sometimes emigrate in large numbers. As examples of this, see French Huguenots, Mormons in the US, or Jews leaving Germany, Russia, and various Arab countries.

If the dark empire was smart maybe they would try infiltration or some other method rather than brute force, but in the end I can't think of an example of any government successfully forcing any group to stop in their beliefs. The odds of an atheist government doing so are even more slim than most historical examples because the atheists do not have a substitute belief system to offer.

I can't come up with many examples of groups totally eradicated that had a significant presence to begin with. However, it's not unheard of for groups to be heavily discriminated against and forced to leave in large numbers. It's not always going to be permanent, but it may well last for decades or generations.

It's also not exactly fair to say that an atheistic group doesn't have a "substitute belief system" -- they may actually have a reasonably coherent one, but it might explicitly deny the existence of any supernatural or divine entities, and instead draw strictly from humanist philosophies. While atheism is sometimes strictly an oppositional rejection of another belief system, it's also possible to define a set of guiding principles that has nothing to do with any sort of suprahuman entities or knowledge. It might not be the kind of thing that present-day people would find comfortable or familiar, but it can be done.

For one possible example... think of a culture that believes there is no existence beyond this one, and that the only way to honor the memory of those past is to make the lives of their descendants richer and easier. They might take a very expansionistic view of their place in the universe, and consider waste, pollution, and inefficiency to be disrespectful of the resources bequeathed to them by their forebears. Obviously, this would need to be fleshed out, as I'm just spinning this off the cuff, and there would be consequences I won't get to before it's time for supper, but that's a start. It could be a culture that completely rejects any an all forms of traditional religious belief (unless you consider "ancestor reverence" a religious belief), and it doesn't define itself in relation to any other culture.

 

[Major B]

It's also not exactly fair to say that an atheistic group doesn't have a "substitute belief system" -- they may actually have a reasonably coherent one, but it might explicitly deny the existence of any supernatural or divine entities, and instead draw strictly from humanist philosophies. While atheism is sometimes strictly an oppositional rejection of another belief system, it's also possible to define a set of guiding principles that has nothing to do with any sort of suprahuman entities or knowledge. It might not be the kind of thing that present-day people would find comfortable or familiar, but it can be done.

Point taken. The example I had in mind was that of Communism failing to weaken Catholicism with Poland as a case in point. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that, rather than lacking a substitute belief system to offer, the communist regime then simply did not have one that Polish Catholics viewed as a better alternative.

Maybe at a overly simple level the choices any suppressed groups have are to fight, flee, hide, or submit. However, a repressive regime may limit the group's ability to flee and will ruthlessly deal with anyone who fights, so in that case their options are more limited.

 

[deniable]

Given that the Imperium governs the space between worlds, it could simply be that a dark Imperium would allow things to develop on the individual worlds but work hard to stop the spread of anything that might unite multiple systems. This could be seen as an internal security function. Keep the population fighting amongst themselves. That may explain a lot of the Mercenary tickets as well. The 3I is stirring up all of the small wars to prevent a bigger revolution.

This could be the basis of a pretty nasty campaign.

 

[aramis]

Fundamentally, only religions with organized transmission of authority can be eradicated. And they are relatively straightforward: find out how they transmit authority, and kill all those who can do it.

For example, Catholics claim apostolic succession by the laying on of hands by bishops all the way back to the Apostles. (And there's documentation for most of it!) It takes two bishops or one patriarch to ordain a new bishop. If one seizes all the bishops, and prevents them from communicating, but lets the faithful see that they are still alive until they are all accounted for, and one permanently destroys apostolic succession of bishops. If nothing else, it would permanently alter the way it works.

Decentralized religions are far harder to eradicate.

 

[atpollard]

In the old Soviet Union, the Government attempted to 'educate the young' into the official 'religion' while suppressing other religions. Many historic examples exist where you cannot hold a Government Job, or perhaps Vote, or work in Education unless you are a member of the official party/church or whatever organization holds power.

In China, the objection was to any allegiance higher than that of the State. There are two churches in China - the Official Government Approved Church, and the Secret Illegal Church.

Please view this as 100% Traveller (101 religions) response to how a 'Dark Empire' might react.

 

[Icosahedron]

Thanks for your contributions so far, guys (in case I don't get an opportunity to say so later )

I'm drawing from this that the probable response of an atheist totalitarian regime would be polar - either they would ignore religion as inconsequential unless it formed the nucleus of resistance or they would attempt to wipe it out pre-emptively by a combination of ruthless genocide and UNreligious education, and run the risk of driving it underground.

I like the 'no allegiance higher than the state' rule, that's the sort of thing I pictured.

I wonder how effective the above techniques could be? How long could an underground persecuted religion survive? Years? Decades? Centuries? Milennia? Forever?

I wonder how effective the 'Final Solution' might eventually have been if Hitler had won WW2, for example? A lot of dictatorships seem to think that genocide is a potentially effective tactic, barring interference from 'outside'.

My thinking is that the likelihood of successful eradication of religion in the long term would be the major determinant of policy. If, ten generations hence, they could create an atheist universe, they might try it, otherwise they might just keep a lid on religion and target anyone who steps out of line.

 

[Valarian]

I wonder how effective the above techniques could be? How long could an underground persecuted religion survive? Years? Decades? Centuries? Milennia? Forever?

Why eradicate it? Any totalitarian regime needs to have a scapegoat to blame when things go wrong. It's far more convenient to have the concept of the ever present enemy poisoning the minds of the loyal citizen, so that you can arrest someone and charge them with membership of the offending group.

With the risk of being political, all of the totalitarian regimes that have been put forward as examples did/do use religion as a control mechanism. In the example of the communist regimes, this was/is the cult of personality and loyalty to the party. Hitler's regime used cult of personality and resurrected German nationality and folk lore as a substitute religion. None of these regimes were true atheistic regimes, a substitute deity was put in the place of existing deities. This is because religion is a wonderful way of controlling the masses.

I would suppose a true atheistic and totalitarian regime would be a technocracy. The scientific class would hold the power. Science itself may have become the state religion. In order to progress in the society, you would have to prove yourself in scientific, peer-reviewed research.

 

[Peter Newman]

According to a statistical analysis of MT's Grand Census (now decannonized), atheism is more common at higher TL's. Based on the TL of the home planet, the following percentage of 'religions' will be Atheistic, or Agnostic. [1]

TL
0-2 0% Agnostic [2] 0% Atheist [3]
3-5 2.8% Agnostic 0% Atheist
6-8 5.6% Agnostic 2.8% Atheist
9-11 8.3% Agnostic 8.3% Atheist
12-14 11.1% Agnostic 16.7% Atheist
15-17 13.9% Agnostic 27.8% Atheist
18-20 16.7% Agnostic 41.7% Atheist
TL 33+ 0% Agnostic 100% Atheist

Thus we can see that even at TL 15 most 'Religions' will be 'religions' and not 'agnostic or atheistic philosophies', but that (using this table) The Ancients must have been Atheists [4]. I suppose by the time you can create your own pocket universe you find no need to believe in a supernatural universe creating being. These tables reflect the statistical frequency of the religions themselves, and not of the peopke who believe in them. However the number of believers is bases on a random roll for Number of Adherants, which is modified only by Missionary Fervor which is another random roll. Therefore the characteristics of a religion do not influence the number of sophont believers it has. Therefore (assuming a randomly derived statistically significant number of religions in your TU) the number of believers will _somewhat_ rougly correlate with the table above.

Of course not all religions will be confined to one planet, and widespread religions are treated as having a TL of 3d6-3, so their most common TL will be found in the TL 6-8 column, Therefore if your TU features a number of interplanetary religions theis will tend to push the percentage of agnostics and atheists down. This analysis is based on the table alone, and does not consider Traveller canon religions, such as the Church of Stellar Divinity, nor on the notion that a number of Solomani religions have survived for over a thousand years already and some or all might well survive until the era of the Third Imperium.

[1] Based on the odds of rolling 2d6-2 + (TL/3 round down), rounded to the nearest 0.1%.
[2] Religion B - Agnosticism
[3] Religions C - Rational Atheism, D - Skeptical Atheism, E - Atheism, and F - Philosophical Atheism.
[4] Setting aside the canonical fact that Yaskodray created religions for Droyne and Chirpers. Canon does not say that he believes in these religions himself. However since the Ancient TL wasn't 33+ until he raised in up that high I suppose you could argue that Yaskodrays own original religious beliefs should be derived based on the TL present at the time of his birth, and are therefore quite likely to have been theistic in nature.

Data Per MT's Grand Census p.44 and p. 46 (fair use of a very small portion of a work copyright 1987 by DGP [5]), which notes that these tables are optional.

[5] No, I don't want to hear your Roger Sanger rant. Assume I agree with it and let it go.

 

[JohnMarsh]

I have nothing major to add that hasn't been said except to say
1) This is the most grown up internet discussion of any RPG / Religion issue I have seen - well done everyone
2) The higher tech level / lower religious belief is a world view of the person with the idea and not necessarily true generally e.g. in "The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven / Pournelle where they have Jump ships, there is a Universal Church and several other religions.
3) NPC's and possibly PC's are much more lkely to be highly motivated to resist / overthrow the dark Empire if it treads on issues of their Faith.
4) Take care with player's sensibilities about their world view.

But to reiterate this is a brilliant thread!

 

[atpollard]

I wonder how effective the above techniques could be? How long could an underground persecuted religion survive? Years? Decades? Centuries? Millennia? Forever?

While I would prefer a non-Christian historic example:

Rome tried for centuries to eradicate the Christian sect (for belief in an authority greater than the Emperor). During this time, their numbers grew.

The former Soviet Union tried for decades, but the Eastern Orthodox Churches refilled almost immediately after the 'evil empire' fell.

So at least Centuries, and perhaps Millennia. Forever is unlikely since the 'religion' would eventually outlast the government. Few of Earth's Governments have lasted a thousand years and none have lasted for 2000 years (the Third Imperium didn’t last 2000 years). Most Despotic Governments do not appear to last a century.

 

[Captain Midnight]

I wonder how effective the above techniques could be? How long could an underground persecuted religion survive? Years? Decades? Centuries? Milennia? Forever?

A lot may depend on how determined a ruling group actually was, and what resources they had available to them. To give it a Traveller context, it's going to be hard to be a closeted member of a religion when the Tavrchedl come by for their periodic mindprobe checkups.

"Citizen, are you happy?" "Yes, I am." "Are you in compliance with government regulations about religious belief?" "Uhhhhhh..." "Right, just step this way for re-education, please..."

This is going to require figuring out why a given regime is "atheistic", and just what that really means. You're also going to need to figure out how you want to handle psionics, and how much people are able to communicate and spread knowledge along without the regime finding out. If it just gets passed along via unreliable oral tradition, it might well change dramatically over time, and tactics for combating the spread of such a belief system might need to change as well.

 

[DaveChase]

I need just a wee bit of something clarified

OK, right from the top, I don't want anything posting here that will get this thread plunged into the pit. Keep it focused; keep it Traveller.

I was reading my new copy of 101 Religions today and it got me thinking: what if there was a Dark Empire, with an Atheist background. How would it most likely handle religions within or beyond its borders?

Would it attempt to stamp them out? infiltrate them? ignore them? take them over? would it depend on the religion? if so, in what way?

How would the religious communities cope with atheist overlords?

Is this culture completely with Religion and therefore Atheist?
OR
Is this culture Atheist because in its past it could never prove religious beliefs and became Atheist?
And/OR
Since Religion in a system of Beliefs/faiths that which can not be proven scientificly does this culture lack a set of beliefs as compared to most cultures that we know?
OR
Is this culture just so different that the Imperial guys just defined it as Atheist?

Dave Chase

NOTE: I am not at all considering this Atheist culture to be a type of Christian Science but that could be a possibility of form.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Few of Earth's Governments have lasted a thousand years and none have lasted for 2000 years (the Third Imperium didn’t last 2000 years).

They consider the Chinese Dynasties to have lasted over 3,000 years, tho they split them into Ancient and Imperial Dynasties.

I would suppose a true atheistic and totalitarian regime would be a technocracy. The scientific class would hold the power.

This could lead to some serious brainwashing scenarios. Brave New World and others in science fiction come to mind. Scanners that detect brain fluctuations that may indicate 'problems' could be in use. Psychotropic drugs to alter thoughts.

You could go in one direction and have it turn out like the Borg Collective in Star Trek or in another direction and be like the Zhodani without the telepathy.

Hitler's regime used cult of personality and resurrected German nationality and folk lore as a substitute religion.

Actually, quite a few people say that Hitler claimed to be Christian.

Link1

Link2

But that would be a topic for another thread.

 

[aramis]

It was Himmler, Heydrich, and Goebels who recreated the old wotanic religion, in part to bond the SS against the "outside" influences.

Hitler was probably aware, and did incorporate some elements in his writings, but was neither openly pro- nor anti-neowotanic.