The K'Kree-Vargr Wars

[Moose]

Right, that piqued your curiousity! I'm sure there are far more knowledgeable folks here than I, but has anybody else ever wondered about what the situation Spinward of the Lesser Rift must be like with both Vargr and K'Kree enclaves. After all both CT Aliens K'Kree and MT Vilani and Vargr agree about the K'Kree outpost in the Alpha Quadrant of Gelath/Gn'hk'r Sector.

Given the rabid vegetarianism of the K'Kree and the freebooting nature of the carnivorous Vargr (and the rather violent Red Vargr of the Trailing extents) surely there must have been, and continue to be some serious clashes. They must surely know each other are there...

But can I find anything?

Nope. Nothing canonical as far as I can tell. Some speculation from the Federation Development Agency but that's about it.

So, if you use (or abuse) the OTU, what happens around there? And when?

Is the challenge of the Jump-4 route across the Lesser Rift simply too much logistic and economic trouble to allow the righteous might of the K'Kree to break over the Vargr G'naak?

Are we looking at some of the paranoid conservatism of the K'Kree, still smarting from the discomfiture of the Hiver-K'Kree War (which seems unlikely)?

Are the K'Kree Outposts unusually passive, a sort of mirror-image of the Lords of Thunder?

Any thoughts?

 

[tjoneslo]

If you read through GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 2, some of the vinettes talk about the Vargr-K'kree interactions. ("Nothing smells like a shaved Vargr").

This is a slow motion cold war kind of scenario. The K'kree don't have the support required to go into full on war mode. They also recongnize that the Vargr are not a monolithic empire the way the K'kree are. But if the K'kree attack in their usual purge war mode, the Vargr will unite to stave off genocide. Since the Vargr have a higher TL, more people, more ships, and don't fight according to the K'kree way, the K'kree will loose. Badly.

Both the Vargr and the K'kree know that as long as the K'kree are somewhat subtle about it; conquer one world here, diplomatically take over another here, claim that outpost, and so on, there will be no great Vargr uprising. In return the Vargr corsairs raid the K'kree worlds for their own charisma. This is a low level but pretty much continuous war. Which the Vargr will loose, like being nibbled to death by ducks.

 

[Trent]

If you read through GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 2, some of the vinettes talk about the Vargr-K'kree interactions. ("Nothing smells like a shaved Vargr").

This is a slow motion cold war kind of scenario. The K'kree don't have the support required to go into full on war mode. They also recongnize that the Vargr are not a monolithic empire the way the K'kree are. But if the K'kree attack in their usual purge war mode, the Vargr will unite to stave off genocide. Since the Vargr have a higher TL, more people, more ships, and don't fight according to the K'kree way, the K'kree will loose. Badly.

Both the Vargr and the K'kree know that as long as the K'kree are somewhat subtle about it; conquer one world here, diplomatically take over another here, claim that outpost, and so on, there will be no great Vargr uprising. In return the Vargr corsairs raid the K'kree worlds for their own charisma. This is a low level but pretty much continuous war. Which the Vargr will loose, like being nibbled to death by ducks.

This sounds a lot like how muslims are invading europe today, very quietly, covertly, slowly expanding their influence, slowly bringing in their culture, laws, etc.

 

[aramis]

Let's leave the political commentary OUT of this thread, please.

 

[Trent]

Let's leave the political commentary OUT of this thread, please.

That was more of a social comment, actually.

 

[aramis]

That was more of a social comment, actually.

Arguing your case in the thread, when you got off with just an open warning, is not appropriate, either.

Seriously, if you want to take a thread outside the pit into political/religious real-world hot-button stuff, hit the quote of the post you reply to, click into the edit box, select all, copy. Then go into the 'pit, hit "post new thread", give it a related title, and paste it in, then add your political/religious/social stuff, and click post.

 

[veltyen]

If you read through GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 2, some of the vinettes talk about the Vargr-K'kree interactions. ("Nothing smells like a shaved Vargr").

This is a slow motion cold war kind of scenario. The K'kree don't have the support required to go into full on war mode. They also recongnize that the Vargr are not a monolithic empire the way the K'kree are. But if the K'kree attack in their usual purge war mode, the Vargr will unite to stave off genocide. Since the Vargr have a higher TL, more people, more ships, and don't fight according to the K'kree way, the K'kree will loose. Badly.

Both the Vargr and the K'kree know that as long as the K'kree are somewhat subtle about it; conquer one world here, diplomatically take over another here, claim that outpost, and so on, there will be no great Vargr uprising. In return the Vargr corsairs raid the K'kree worlds for their own charisma. This is a low level but pretty much continuous war. Which the Vargr will loose, like being nibbled to death by ducks.

I was trying to think of examples of this kind of model of invasion.

Colonisation of the Americas and Australia come to mind. Effectively the K'Kree are colonising Vargr space. Not smashing everything to pieces, just dropping in trading enclaves, mining rights and operations, always employing large numbers of locals and keeping them on side, until the locals choose of their own free will to join with the K'Kree.

I wouldn't think the Vargr would automatically loose. They are the perfect race after all. For each time a system is taken by the K'Kree some Vargr corsair takes a thousand K'Kree skulls as a prize, and with a higher TL that gives them a significant edge. But a lot of insidious creeping warfare.

I don't think cold war is quite the right description. Cool war certainly, but it lacks the intensive political machination and proxy warfare that makes a cold war. Both sides are a little more direct and obvious then that type of warfare would entail.

Sounds intriguing as a non-human-biased setting.

 

[Zparkz]

I could see this happen as it will be difficult to gather large enough Vargr forces under one commander/leader to stop a snail moving capret over the Vargr extents. K'kree on the other hand got the unit organization down pat, but lacks in the TL department.

Any large conflict would likely be a war of proxy by the k'kree, by getting others to do their fight, thus also getting the Vargr to consentrate on others.

 

[Trent]

I was trying to think of examples of this kind of model of invasion.

I cited an excellent one above.

Colonisation of the Americas and Australia come to mind. Effectively the K'Kree are colonising Vargr space. Not smashing everything to pieces, just dropping in trading enclaves, mining rights and operations, always employing large numbers of locals and keeping them on side, until the locals choose of their own free will to join with the K'Kree.

I wouldn't think the Vargr would automatically loose. They are the perfect race after all. For each time a system is taken by the K'Kree some Vargr corsair takes a thousand K'Kree skulls as a prize, and with a higher TL that gives them a significant edge. But a lot of insidious creeping warfare.

I don't think cold war is quite the right description. Cool war certainly, but it lacks the intensive political machination and proxy warfare that makes a cold war. Both sides are a little more direct and obvious then that type of warfare would entail.

Sounds intriguing as a non-human-biased setting.

I think the hivers might help the vargr out as they see the vargr as far less of a threat than the k'kree. Or they might manipulate the whole war for some reason only a hiver would get.

 

[veltyen]

I cited an excellent one above.

In the pit I would be happy to describe why I think you are wrong.

However it has been modded "anathema" here.

I think the hivers might help the vargr out as they see the vargr as far less of a threat than the k'kree. Or they might manipulate the whole war for some reason only a hiver would get.

I suppose it depends on how you play Hivers. I tend towards the arcane to the point of incomprehensible. You wouldn't be able to work out which side they were helping or why - more like the second case you put forward.

 

[DElrick]

I was trying to think of examples of this kind of model of invasion.

Colonisation of the Americas and Australia come to mind. Effectively the K'Kree are colonising Vargr space. Not smashing everything to pieces, just dropping in trading enclaves, mining rights and operations, always employing large numbers of locals and keeping them on side, until the locals choose of their own free will to join with the K'Kree.

I imagine it more like the Pacific War in WWII at the start of the island-hopping campaign, when it was still difficult to build up enough equipment to sustain an attack, provide a defense (including rooting out any stay-behinds who want to show you how bayonet drill works in their army) and also establish a springboard for the next attack.

I've just finished reading a history of the 8th Air Force in Europe and what I didn't realise was the amount of equipment and troops being scheduled for one front (Europe or the Pacific) and then swapped to the other front at very short notice throughout a lot of 1942 and into 1943 until industry and training caught up with the numbers required. I'd see the K'Kree having similar sorts of issues (although for different reasons obviously) - there are other calls on their resources on a number of fronts. Plus, the sheer amount of effort required to take each system (especially given the amount of troops they'd have to move) and then integrate it would argue a slow, steady advance over a longer period.

The other major problem for the K'Kree is that there is no central Vargr government to strike at (the dot map in Vilani and Vargr shows nearly a sector between the borders of the Two Thousand Worlds and the nearest Vargr state). This means that they have to isolate and take each Vargr world in turn and then do it all again from scratch on the next one.

A mini-campaign in a subsector close to the K'Kree front 'line' might be rather interesting and probably quite intense. I imagine you'd have various factions amongst the Vargr (negotiation vs war and everything in between), random raids/strikes in both directions (finally, an excuse for piracy/privateering in Traveller - sorry, I'll get my coat). Plus you'd have other races - Humans, Bwaps, etc. Maybe even a Hiver or two stirring things up... sorry, observing. With no idea when the K'kree build-up would break and trigger an invasion of the next world in their path. In short, everything you need for a good Traveller game except an ancients site.

 

[Moose]

This is shaping up nicely. But do the K'Kree do subtlety? Their hatred of meat-eaters is legendary: it is rabid, fanatical, and would take a very special sort of unconventional leader to manage. Would one of the few things to forge Vargr unity be the threat of extinction?

 

[tjoneslo]

But do the K'Kree do subtlety? Their hatred of meat-eaters is legendary: it is rabid, fanatical, and would take a very special sort of unconventional leader to manage.

The K'kree are, like many races, a study in contradictions. While they are fanatical, they are also timid and like to have stability and quiet. While they feel their destiny to conquer the universe, it really is only to make it safe for themselves.

In most cases the K'kree leadership has great difficulty in riling up their followers to go kill G'naak. They'd much rather stay home with the family. Fighting means separation, being crowded into small confined spaces, being forced to make a whole bunch of decisions without real leadership, blood, and other nastiness.

One of the reason the war in across the rift is as hot as it is, is because the Vargr can't leave it well enough alone. Every time one of those hot-shot Vargr corsairs goes out to make a name for himself and assaults a K'kree world, the whole herd gets in a tizzy. Then the K'kree leadership needs to go prove it can keep the herd safe, so it goes off and kills a few thousand Vargr and takes another planet.

If the Vargr had any sense, they would put a 4-6 parsec neutral zone around the current K'kree space. If the K'kree invaded worlds, the Vargr should slap them silly back across the line. Repeat with any corsairs.

This is what both the Hiver and the Imperium have done. The diplomatic approach of the line in the sand, backed by enough fire power to make it stick. The politics of this is part of the for the delays in expansion to trailing in the Gateway Quadrant. And why there are so many small interstellar states there.

Would one of the few things to forge Vargr unity be the threat of extinction?

If the K'kree could suddenly field a battle group capable of taking and holding a significant number of worlds all at once, the Vargr would undoubtedly respond in kind. Significant number would be 20 or more (half a subsector).

But don't forget, the Vargr are masters of the hit-and-run tactics. This war would not play out with large set piece battles like in the Imperium-Zhodani Frontier wars.

 

[BlackBat242]

But don't forget, the Vargr are masters of the hit-and-run tactics.

Kind of like a pack of wolves bringing down a moose?

<gdr>

:smirk:

 

[Moose]

While I really want to think and write further about this I discovered a similar thread in the "related threads" box - that is, Vargr/K'kree Bloodbath!... so now I have a little more light reading (and proof that there is nothing new under the sun(s).

EDIT: Much of that thread appears to be taken up with Starship Design, which is good - but not quite so relevant to the topic at hand, although the map is helpful.