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Omnivore
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Umm.. the space shuttle used a drop tank...
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The Island Clusters
- Thread starter Gray Pennell
- Start date
Yes, but unlike how recent drop tanks for jump drives[*] had been invented in the OTU (which was established in 1979, two years befor TCS was published), that was, AFAIK, established later than 1981, when DGP published the map of Reft[**].
[*] Not to be confused with other tanks used for other purposes but also called drop tanks.
[**] Or was Reft detailed in Atlas of the Imperium? That's one of the books I never got my hands on.
[**] Or was Reft detailed in Atlas of the Imperium? That's one of the books I never got my hands on.
Actually, if you can fit enough jump fuel into the hull (I'm not sure you can), the capacity of the jump drive is irrelevant. All that affects is how many jumps you need to perform. Still, I'd expect at least one deep space fuel depot on the 7-parsec route (at either end of the route) and two on the 8-parsec route (at both ends of the route.
As you say, you get problems with the power plant fuel consumption with a low-performance jump drive, provided you accept the canonical power plant fuel consumption rules. Since they are based on the unspoken assumption that maneuver drives are going full blast 24/7, in or out of jumpspace, I for one don't.
Hans
It does not use a jump drive drop tank.Umm.. the space shuttle used a drop tank...
Hans
Drop tanks added to a vessel's displacement which in turn effects things like gee rating and agility. For example, with drop tanks the Gazelle is only capable of 4g and without drop tanks it can achieve 5g. (Something which neatly mirrors the effect of drop tanks used in aviation both past and present.)
The presence and/or lack of drop tanks can effect more than just jump range, so drop tanks can and will be used with m-drives alone.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I can't check at the moment but I think drop tanks were TL12 in first edition HG.
Gray Pennell
SOC-12
I am just tossing this out there or maybe dropping it anyways when the writer wrote drop tanks are appear at TL7 maybe they where thinking of aircraft drop tanks? Which is about right sense we started using them on a large scale during WWII and perfected them just after.
So yes Drop tanks existed as of TL7 now jump drop tanks might come on later due to some hand waving of jump mechanics. This might be explain the TL7-TL 12 problem.
So yes Drop tanks existed as of TL7 now jump drop tanks might come on later due to some hand waving of jump mechanics. This might be explain the TL7-TL 12 problem.
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097-1105 ⑆Regina (Spinward Marches 1910)
By TNS Staff Writer
¶Officials of the General Shipyards on Regina announced that it has completed negotiations with Tukera Lines to locally manufacture L-Hyd drop tanks for use on high-capacity commercial vessels. General will assemble components at its more modern facilities on Pixie (Spinward Marches 1903). The first production examples are expected to be available within six months, at which time Tukera Lines will begin high capacity service from the interior. Component assembly will be carried out at General's more modern facilities on Pixie.
¶L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped with the new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in specially designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon conversion of the fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a safe distance from the vessel.
¶A spokesman for General Shipyards explained that local yards are not yet capable of manufacturing the long-storage capacitors required for the process, but that production of the drop tanks is possible, thus allowing the high capacity starships of the Tukera Lines to begin service to the Regina subsector.
¶L-Hyd tanks are not reusable, and thus increase the absolute cost per jump. However, experience has shown that the increase in cargo tonnage resulting from the elimination of internal J-fuel storage more than makes up for this, the press release explained.
¶The joint press release concluded by stating that local manufacture of L-Hyd drop tanks marks the dawn of a new era of commerce and prosperity in the Regina subsector. Following the announcement, common stock in Oberlindes Lines plummeted 27 points on the Regina exchange before trading was suspended. Officials of Oberlindes Lines were not available for comment. Ω
By TNS Staff Writer
¶Officials of the General Shipyards on Regina announced that it has completed negotiations with Tukera Lines to locally manufacture L-Hyd drop tanks for use on high-capacity commercial vessels. General will assemble components at its more modern facilities on Pixie (Spinward Marches 1903). The first production examples are expected to be available within six months, at which time Tukera Lines will begin high capacity service from the interior. Component assembly will be carried out at General's more modern facilities on Pixie.
¶L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped with the new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in specially designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon conversion of the fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a safe distance from the vessel.
¶A spokesman for General Shipyards explained that local yards are not yet capable of manufacturing the long-storage capacitors required for the process, but that production of the drop tanks is possible, thus allowing the high capacity starships of the Tukera Lines to begin service to the Regina subsector.
¶L-Hyd tanks are not reusable, and thus increase the absolute cost per jump. However, experience has shown that the increase in cargo tonnage resulting from the elimination of internal J-fuel storage more than makes up for this, the press release explained.
¶The joint press release concluded by stating that local manufacture of L-Hyd drop tanks marks the dawn of a new era of commerce and prosperity in the Regina subsector. Following the announcement, common stock in Oberlindes Lines plummeted 27 points on the Regina exchange before trading was suspended. Officials of Oberlindes Lines were not available for comment. Ω
(Emphasis mine).
It's not the drop tanks themselves that are the crucial technology, it's the capacitors without which drop tanks cannot be used for jumps.
Incidentally, I understand that MGT has retconned drop tank technology to be possible at a relatively early TL (9?) but to be less reliable at that TL than they become at later TLs. I believe there is an incremental improvement.
Hans
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Your recall is correct... although that seems to have to do with the "special high capacity accumulator"...
Copyright HG1
EDIT: Heh, I type too slowly, now I see Hans has beaten me to it
(sort of 
)
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It worries me sometimes that i can remember this stuff =)
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
CT LBB #3 Worlds and adventures: pages 14&15
TL6: missiles/missile launchers; television; rotary winged aircraft; fission
Sure sounds like WW2-Korea era to me...
TL7: pulse laser; hovercraft; non-starships; solar power
Sure sounds like 1960s+ to me.
So aircraft drop tanks are TL6.
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And that may be one of the factors precluding its more generalized use in military operations, If you want your fleet equiped with them (e.g. to be able to retreat on sight, as discussed in another thread about a year ago), you either reduce your fleet jump capability (and so its strategic response capability) or you spend quite a lot on tanks, detaching them in every jump (or at least those from a base where they can get them), as they are disposable.
I agree in that drop tanks may be used for MD, but they are, IMHO, more like those you both say that are used in airplanes since WWII, quite more easy to make and that need not to pump all its fuel in just a few moments for the JD, so I guess they can be more easily built.
IIRC we have already had this discussion before
.This quote, that it's canon, says drop tanks have been in service in the Imperium since about 1092-3, but the first Gazelle laid down (also canon, even if quite controverted, to say the least) was built before that.
So we have several possibilities:
- one of them is faulty
- when the TASNS says have only been in service , it means have only been in comercial service , or have only been in common service . That may be due to reliability problems, not being economical until high jump is achieved (maybe only for jump 6), or other reasons.
- before that it was only for military use (maybe for any of the reasons given above)
Your recall is correct... although that seems to have to do with the "special high capacity accumulator"...
Copyright HG1
EDIT: Heh, I type too slowly, now I see Hans has beaten me to it
Well, this may be interpreted in several ways. One of them is that those special high capacity accumulators must be installed on the ship, so no ship under TL12 may be equiped for using L-Hyd Tanks, but maybe the tanks themselves may be built at lower TLs.
Anyway, don't forget this was taken off from the rules in latter versions, hinting that the designers thought it was erroneous. In my version of the HG (the one on the books published by FFE in 2000), there's no TL reference for drop tanks and their cost is Cr 10000 per 1000 dtons of fuel.
Well, to mantain even a tenuous contact with the Cluster, those deep space fuel depots must exist, unless you can build at least a handful of ships capable to make it without refuelling (jump 7-8 fuel capacity, and, IMHO, the best way to achieve it is with jump 4 capability).
Those ships are quite easy to build in MT (where you 'only' need 25% of your ship tonnage in fuel to achieve jump 4, so with 50% of your tonnage as fuel tanks you can achieve it), but not so in other paradigms, where you need 70-80% of your tonnage to achieve those jumps, and with 5% to achieve jump 4, 3% to maneuver 1 (minimum) and 2% to bridge, you have only 10-20% left as crew accomodations, payload, etc...
In MT, where the power use is detailed, you can calculate that, of course (while in jump I turn off my MD to save power, etc...), but in CT/HG the fuel consuption is quite straightforward (you need X tons for 4 weeks), so those calculations are more to the referee judgement, as the rules don't provide for them.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The TAS bulletin is for the civilian use of drop tanks as far as i can tell from the entry.
If they are a TL12 invention requiring high capacity accumulators as written it stand to reason that the military will be using them for years before they become declassified for civilian use.
If they are a TL12 invention requiring high capacity accumulators as written it stand to reason that the military will be using them for years before they become declassified for civilian use.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Oh quite. That seems to be exactly what the rule says to me.
To paraphrase... Don't attribute to intelligence what is adequately explained as a mistake
I think this is just another bit that got dropped in editing haste, in error, when "fixing" HG from the first printing. But it could be either deliberate or accident. Clarification would be nice.
To paraphrase... Don't attribute to intelligence what is adequately explained as a mistake
Sorry for attributing it, but I tend to attribute intelligence to anyone (at least as much as I attribute to myself) and never assume for sure anything to be a mistake if it can be explained otherwise (even if I also consider the possibility it's a mistake).
And in this case, the mistake could be in the HG1 TL limits or in deleting them in latter versions. After all, one thing latter versions really fixed (or at least made better), IMHO, is not giving a fixed price to Lhyd-Tanks, but making them depend on its tonnage capability (unless it was already in HG1, as I guess you don't quote all the Lhyd-Tanks references there was there and I have no access to it to check).
Fully agreed here
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
My paraphrase was a bit tongue in cheek, I agree it could a mistake in either, or a change of ideas, or something else (like the HG1 jump governor* being deleted/ignored as the change to 2nd printing B2 and HG both included it in the jump drive or the idea was dropped entirely).
Yes, I skipped the actual drop tank costs, those are identical to HG2.
Personally I find the whole subject of drop tanks in CT such a mess, despite or because of the fixes in the second printings and later colour text additions that it is useless without so much house ruling as to be a benefit only as an inspiration. They aren't simply broken, they are totally borked.
* without which a ship burned it's entire jump fuel load regardless of the actual jump, eg. a far-trader with J2 drives had to burn 40tons for a J2 or a J1 prior to 2nd printing editions, UNLESS you bought a jump governor from HG1
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
LOL - the writers of High Guard made the biggest mistake imaginable - they got the size of jump drives and manoeuvre drives mixed up (assuming that the drive tables in CT, RCT, TTB, ST are correct).
They not only missed this error, they failed to spot it and fix it for second edition.
Unless they meant to make the HG ship paradigm completely incompatible with the basic Traveller rules - in which case they succeeded
They not only missed this error, they failed to spot it and fix it for second edition.
Unless they meant to make the HG ship paradigm completely incompatible with the basic Traveller rules - in which case they succeeded
Yes, Reft sector was covered in the Atlas.
LOL - the writers of High Guard made the biggest mistake imaginable - they got the size of jump drives and manoeuvre drives mixed up (assuming that the drive tables in CT, RCT, TTB, ST are correct).
They not only missed this error, they failed to spot it and fix it for second edition.
Unless they meant to make the HG ship paradigm completely incompatible with the basic Traveller rules - in which case they succeeded
I agree in that. And the same perecentages were kept in MT.
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