The enigmatic Strephon

[Carlobrand]

So, in Survival Margin, Strephon at one point speaks of having delayed revealing himself hoping to hear word of "evacuation from Longbow." Then he talks about not having heard from Pentecost, and in consequence not being able to explain where he was.

What is Longbow, and who is Pentecost?

He received word of the death of his family 7 weeks after the event, while at Depot. We don't know which Depot, but the same enigmatic passage says, "Depot/Core is a close enough substitute for Depot/Lishun," as if he were at Depot/Lishun and intended to pretend he was at Depot/Core. But Depot/Lishun's 43 parsecs from Capital - word can't get from Capital to Depot/Lishun in 7 weeks short of some very lucky misjumps. And word could reach Depot/Core in one week, two at the outside.

Where was Strephon?

 

[Lycanorukke]

What is Longbow,

Long Baseline Observation Window.

LongBOW I was built in the 800s at Lishun Depot as a spy device. A synthetic aperture telescope 40,000 km wide. It was used to spy on the Zho core expeditions.

LongBOW II was an even bigger scope built in 1103. Stretching from the Marches to Antares it was a synthetic aerture scope 160 parsecs wide with the sensor data collated at Lishun Depot.

He received word of the death of his family 7 weeks after the event, while at Depot. We don't know which Depot, but the same enigmatic passage says, "Depot/Core is a close enough substitute for Depot/Lishun," as if he were at Depot/Lishun and intended to pretend he was at Depot/Core.

It sounds more like he was on his way to Lishun (It was because Longbow 2 had detected something, the whole empress wave and the sparklies/Primordials thing IIRC) and then diverted. Problem is though, the Core Depot is way out of the way if he was heading to Lishun, and any others even further. Though given he would have been cruising around in a J-6, he may have been on his way back when the news was gotten. We dont know how long the double had been playing the role.

There's no shortage of problems with the Strephon thing, but I think at that point they didn't really care anymore as the Imperium was going to be mashed into the ground for TNE thus they could do anything they liked as it would be meaningless in the new edition - such as turning a double into the real one retroactivlry.

 

[robject]

[...] I think at that point they didn't really care anymore as the Imperium was going to be mashed into the ground for TNE thus they could do anything they liked as it would be meaningless in the new edition - such as turning a double into the real one retroactivlry.

I tend to think the opposite - that Nilsen knew exactly how he wanted to "get to" TNE from MT. The veiled references and enigmas in Survival Margin were teasers intended to be unwoven as TNE got published, and I think some of it did, and some of it didn't.

For more reading, see Nilsen's thread here on COTI (Is that stickied? If not, it should be!)

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=7434&highlight=dave

 

[Vladika]

Longbow seems pretty pointless from the get go. Core to the Zho capital? Who are we trying to kid? Info would be decades out of date using a telescope to monitor even at the speed of light.

Even with the monumental difficulty of spy operating in the Consulate, I
do think that would be better, and certainly quicker.

So The Emperor "sees" something, decades to late, and he trots off to personally investigate? I just don't see that happening.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Longbow seems pretty pointless from the get go. Core to the Zho capital? Who are we trying to kid? Info would be decades out of date using a telescope to monitor even at the speed of light

I'd say centuries. Its around something like 200psc from Lishun to Zhodane, so its great if you want to spy on someone who has been dead for over 500 years.

Though it was supposed to watch the Core Expeditions which had been happening since 5000 years before the imperium was formed, so they may get something from the 4th-5th expeditions, though even then they would be stretching the limit of their 'light cone' to see.

For more reading, see Nilsen's thread here on COTI (Is that stickied? If not, it should be!)

Ta for that, I have some reading to do.

I tended to skip a lot of the very old stuff because it turned into a almost unreadable mess (triple repeats, screwed up tags, etc) when the board transitioned.

 

[robject]

Longbow seems pretty pointless from the get go. Core to the Zho capital? Who are we trying to kid? Info would be decades out of date using a telescope to monitor even at the speed of light.

Even with the monumental difficulty of spy operating in the Consulate, I
do think that would be better, and certainly quicker.

So The Emperor "sees" something, decades to late, and he trots off to personally investigate? I just don't see that happening.

I know what you mean, but everything looks fuzzy until it's in focus. I don't know about the rest, but Nilsen tied the Empress Wave into Longbow II.

 

[mike wightman]

It's amazing what pops back up on these boards - over on the ask dave thread LKW turned up near the end, when asked about the real Strephon he had this to say:

My fault: When MT was in the planning stages, I suggested that one of the parties in the Rebellion be "The real Strephon" -- based on the career of Pugachev in Russia (an imposter claiming to be Czar Peter III).

As time passed, it became clear that the fans _really,_ REALLY wanted it to be Strephon, and would have lynched us is we had revealed he was an imposter . . . so we changed it, and in the process came up with a reason for him not to have been in the Palace.

 

[savage]

I'd say centuries. Its around something like 200psc from Lishun to Zhodane, so its great if you want to spy on someone who has been dead for over 500 years.

Though it was supposed to watch the Core Expeditions which had been happening since 5000 years before the imperium was formed, so they may get something from the 4th-5th expeditions, though even then they would be stretching the limit of their 'light cone' to see.


Ta for that, I have some reading to do.

I tended to skip a lot of the very old stuff because it turned into a almost unreadable mess (triple repeats, screwed up tags, etc) when the board transitioned.

I find the old threads informative and enjoyable.

TNE1248 had the Longbow (as I recall) identifying the core expedition and Avery goes off on a search in an AHL with a squadron...it was a mess.

Since Longbow has psionic elements its not a stretch because its not using jumpspace.

 

[Vladika]

TNE1248 had the Longbow (as I recall) identifying the core expedition and Avery goes off on a search in an AHL with a squadron...it was a mess.

So THAT is where he is...

Since Longbow has psionic elements its not a stretch because its not using jumpspace.

Seriously? A psionic telescope? Build, and used, by an Empire with massive psionic suppression. You know, just because "someone" wrote it, violating ANY background settings (Like That's new...), doesn't mean it has to make sense, and Marc did originate the "It also has to make sense". (And NO, that's NOT anti Marc. Simply pointing out HE likes things that make sense. So, all you "outside" writers, how about something that does make sense AND conforms to the OTU. Is that asking to much? (apparently so...))

So, for the guy who DID come up with this, WHY?

BTW, exactly what TL is that thing supposed to be?

 

[savage]

So THAT is where he is...

Yep. Sorry. Nobles are no longer needed. So plot device is to remove Avery so that it collapses into civil war. I think civil war in the Regency and Avery leaving are improbable or better put, "no way." I can see them blaming nobles, but they'd tie Avery down.

Seriously? A psionic telescope? Build, and used, by an Empire with massive psionic suppression. You know, just because "someone" wrote it, violating ANY background settings (Like That's new...), doesn't mean it has to make sense, and Marc did originate the "It also has to make sense". (And NO, that's NOT anti Marc. Simply pointing out HE likes things that make sense. So, all you "outside" writers, how about something that does make sense AND conforms to the OTU. Is that asking to much? (apparently so...))

So, for the guy who DID come up with this, WHY?

BTW, exactly what TL is that thing supposed to be?

Close, but no cigar.

More than likely based on replicating Ancient technology. Psionic suppression does not mean they don't experiment on it. After all, a feudal technocracy would probably consider it to be a "negative" mutation.

 

[rancke]

Seriously? A psionic telescope? Build, and used, by an Empire with massive psionic suppression.

I've always believed that the Imperium's higher-ups employed psionic bodyguards in secret and that the intelligence services did the same. Psionic adepts are just too useful not to. I also believe that psionic prejudice correlates inversely with social class. It's not the Law and the authorities that are the greatest threat to psionics, it's lynch mobs (not that individual nobles can't be just as prejudiced as the lowliest commoner -- it's just rarer).


Hans

 

[savage]

Just a thought but,
The risk of psionic employees being discovered would crush a nobles reputation with the public and the Moot. It would result in retaliation. It's not unlike the use of spy equipment during a political campaign today. Perhaps a regional problem of Sylea and Terra that is pushed onto the rest of the Domains, but doubt its class. Unless Marc chooses to write some great psionic, atrocity into a future product.

If that were the case, Zho would not be hated by leaders on such a high level. And those Zho would know 3I nobles are indifferent to psionics.

 

[epicenter00]

If that were the case, Zho would not be hated by leaders on such a high level. And those Zho would know 3I nobles are indifferent to psionics.

Anti-psionic prejudice is really just icing on the cake for the poor relations between the Zhodani and Third Imperium. It is not the reason for it, though I think a lot of people mistake it to be and I suspect many Imperial citizens believe it to be the case.

However...

The Zhodani attack the Imperium because Imperial expansion threatens the Zhodani Consulate. That's the reason for the Frontier Wars. Not because the Imperials are anti-psionic. The Imperium has poor relations with other neighboring groups because of their expansionism as well; psionics had nothing to do with relations between the Imperium and what would become the Julian Protectorate.

The Imperium primarily dislikes the Zhodani because the Zhodani attack them, not because the Zhodani use psionics.

That the Imperium are raving liars, thieves, and mental deviants is something that makes fighting the Imperium more palatable to the Zhodani. That the Zhodani are a psionic dictatorship with mind-reading happiness police makes fighting the Zhodani more palatable to the Imperials.

 

[rancke]

The risk of psionic employees being discovered would crush a nobles reputation with the public and the Moot.

Certainly not with the Moot if most everybody else is is doing it too. As for the public, historically kings and nobles have had heretics and jews and other proscribed people living at their courts despite Church, Law, and public opinion, so I'd say that it is not self-evident that this would be a problem. Certainly not in all places at all times. Besides, nobles are not immune to the common human assumption that they won't get caught because Fate won't let that happen to THEM.


Hans

 

[Quint]

Certainly not with the Moot if most everybody else is is doing it too. As for the public, historically kings and nobles have had heretics and jews and other proscribed people living at their courts despite Church, Law, and public opinion, so I'd say that it is not self-evident that this would be a problem. Certainly not in all places at all times. Besides, nobles are not immune to the common human assumption that they won't get caught because Fate won't let that happen to THEM.

Hans

This was certainly always my take on it as well. I also viewed the Imperium having a couple of shadowy agencies or departments that actively trained for psionics but kept it labelled under the "special warfare" sort od thing and viewed with about the same level of danger as bioweapons research and deployment.

But that there were also a handful for psychics out there with Warrents that made them "street legal" though understandably discrete.

D.

 

[savage]

I am unaware of any canon supporting either pro-psionic approach in 3I. By all means do share canon where this is clearly indicated?

In my view that would make 3I another version of Zhodani.

Now, I am not saying that a world or two does not have a pro-psionics stance. Secret or otherwise. I also suspect that some nobles are open minded on the psionic issue. For example, Domain of Deneb may be very anti-psionic and the Solomani Rim very open minded. This would cause regular debates in the Moot.

If you're suggesting a B5 style psionic police. I don't see any examples.

 

[rancke]

I am unaware of any canon supporting either pro-psionic approach in 3I. By all means do share canon where this is clearly indicated?

There's Braan Dilgadin, Norris' seneschal.

Apart from that, it's highly implausible that great nobles and intelligence services would eshew the use of tools as valuable as psionic adepts if there was any way they could use them. Which I submit there is.

If you're suggesting a B5 style psionic police. I don't see any examples.

In a setting as scantily documented as the Third Imperium, absence of evidence is not proof of absence.



Hans

 

[savage]

There's Braan Dilgadin, Norris' seneschal.


In a setting as scantily documented as the Third Imperium, absence of evidence is not proof of absence.



Hans

Hans,
This is pure assumption, a plot device. Absence actually is proof. There are far too many documents for something this important not to be clearly stated in a psionics book. But I'll keep my eye open for it. I believe this is a YTU concept. I don't dismiss it, but its not norm. I have plenty of MTU statements I clearly define, as such.

 

[savage]

Anti-psionic prejudice is really just icing on the cake for the poor relations between the Zhodani and Third Imperium. It is not the reason for it, though I think a lot of people mistake it to be and I suspect many Imperial citizens believe it to be the case.

However...

The Zhodani attack the Imperium because Imperial expansion threatens the Zhodani Consulate. That's the reason for the Frontier Wars. Not because the Imperials are anti-psionic. The Imperium has poor relations with other neighboring groups because of their expansionism as well; psionics had nothing to do with relations between the Imperium and what would become the Julian Protectorate.

The Imperium primarily dislikes the Zhodani because the Zhodani attack them, not because the Zhodani use psionics.

That the Imperium are raving liars, thieves, and mental deviants is something that makes fighting the Imperium more palatable to the Zhodani. That the Zhodani are a psionic dictatorship with mind-reading happiness police makes fighting the Zhodani more palatable to the Imperials.

I understand that Imperium expansionism is the primary political problem of the 3rd Imperium and the reason for the frontier wars.

The psionic dictatorship is the real catch for feeding expansionism. One has a reason to hate Zho's that is an excuse for financial gain.
The Imperium is too large and fragile for a large scale conspiracy against the public to work. I also think the lack of psionic nobles in canon is supporting evidence.

 

[rancke]

This is pure assumption, a plot device. Absence actually is proof. There are far too many documents for something this important not to be clearly stated in a psionics book. But I'll keep my eye open for it. I believe this is a YTU concept. I don't dismiss it, but its not norm. I have plenty of MTU statements I clearly define, as such.

I can't deny (nor do I want to) that it's an MTU feature. But I also think it's a canon-compatible concept. So I feel that prefacing my original statement with "I've always believed..." is quite sufficient to inform the reader that it's not something that's spelled out anywhere in canon (If it had been, I would have omitted the "I believe..." and simply stated it as a fact).


Hans