The enigmatic Strephon

[savage]

I can't deny (nor do I want to) that it's an MTU feature. But I also think it's a canon-compatible concept. So I feel that prefacing my original statement with "I've always believed..." is quite sufficient to inform the reader that it's not something that's spelled out anywhere in canon (If it had been, I would have omitted the "I believe..." and simply stated it as a fact).


Hans

Hans. Let me clarify. I read your notes as a "compatible" concept. I'm trying to suggest everyone keeps an eye open for supporting information. I can see segments of the population (as I mentioned) adapting this believe resulting in a schism. There is no evidence of that so it is an MTU concept for me.

 

[savage]

A very quick look through my books;
MgT Psion suggests the Imperium bans psionics, it is underground and very hard to get. It also provides classes for more open campaigns "B5-like" there is a psion scout.

In CT there was an article on Zhodani Philosophies
"...psionics. It is the possession of psionic abilities that is the root cause of all tension between us."

 

[whulorigan]

There's Braan Dilgadin, Norris' seneschal.

Apart from that, it's highly implausible that great nobles and intelligence services would eshew the use of tools as valuable as psionic adepts if there was any way they could use them. Which I submit there is.

For the sake of the discussion:

TNE: Survival Margin, p.5:

. . . It is now well known that Norris employed his psionic seneschal, Dilgaadin, for a number of unique roles. During Norris' reign it was often noted that Norris spoke through his seneschal quite often, and when asked why this was the case, answered, "Dilgaadin knows my mind on these matters." Norris also saved himself the time of personally writing or dictating by allowing Dilgaadin to psionically read his thoughts and intentions on an issue, and then draft a statement in his stead. This arrangement worked so well that only rarely did Norris draft his own documents, and these were said to be rather incomplete and in need of editing, so used was Norris to Dilgaadin completing his own thoughts for him. Although some Norris scholars attempt to divine which documents were written directly by Norris and which were filtered through Dilgaadin, most agree that they are indistinguishable: Dilgaadin's long association with Norris allowed him to use phrasing and wording identical to that of his lord.

It seems reasonable that other Nobles or Imperial Ministries might "secretly" employ psions for top-secret operations. Remember that the anti-psionic prejudice in the "modern" Imperium was due to a failed attempt at psycho-historical manipulation by the Imperial government in the late 700's. The results went well beyond what the Imperial government had intended.

CT: Supplement 11: LDNZ, p. 16:

. . . The reason large-scale psychohistory experiments are no longer conducted is due to the unpredictable results achieved by the only sizable experiment to date, conducted as a part of the psionics suppressions (q.v.). The unforeseen results of this experiment were so far-reaching that Imperial scientists concluded that their knowledge of the principles involved was woefully inadequate, and that further study was required. Imperial research into psychohistory is undertaken at a small number of research stations, and is carried out under the strictest of controls.


CT: Supplement 11: LDNZ, p. 15:
. . . Sixty-five psionics institutes held lmperial charters in 800. The suppression orders issued by Paula II, . . .

. . . Of these, actual records indicate that SO 83 and SO 96 were themselves revoked by orders published elsewhere. The result is that a cursory examination of the SO files will reveal all lmperial charters of psionics institutes to have been revoked; in actuality, two institutes have retained their charters, now under the auspices of the Ministry of Defense. One institute remains at its original site, at Terra (Sol 0207). The revocation order was cancelled in 1014. One institute, originally sited at Regina, has been reestablished at Wypoc (Lanth 0401), while retaining a low level recruiting establishment as part of the navy base at Regina. Both Imperial-chartered psionics institutes are under military control, and are engaged in psionics research. Their existence is of the utmost secrecy.

 

[savage]

Right. Thanks for more digging.

So, canon recognizes some need for psionic activities, but puts it under tight controls not during the Stephon's rule. It would be very bad for a noble to be caught utilizing psionics staff. It would make a good adventure. Like B5 those are probably registered military psionics limited to certain regions, etc.

Still for those interested. MgT has character classes for more open campaigns. I don't know about GT or any of the other versions. Perhaps in an old CT fanzine there is something. I might check T20 tomorrow.

 

[rancke]

So, canon recognizes some need for psionic activities, but puts it under tight controls not during the Stephon's rule. It would be very bad for a noble to be caught utilizing psionics staff. It would make a good adventure. Like B5 those are probably registered military psionics limited to certain regions, etc.

Could be. Possibly. But not actually spelled out anywhere in canon that I'm aware of. No mention of what controls exist. No mention of the consequences of being caught employing a psionic. No mention of licensed psionics in any way, shape or form. What you say is canon-compatible.

But it's not canon.


Hans

 

[savage]

MgT leaves it to ref discretion. Clearly, some will want a B5 organized since agency for registry and work. Others may want a lobotomy or outcast approach. I consider these newer canons to be fixed to old questions. This makes canon flexible on the issue under MgT. It is also possible different emperors took different levels of enforcement.

CT Canon 3I is clear that it is hard to obtain and banned. And that the public (nobles/non-nobles) have a fear of it. MgT later confirms it. If nobles utilized it extensively, it would be pretty well known and obtainable not unlike a different spin on the B5 universe. This is not flexible on the issue in 3I post yr800. Essentially, if they discover psionics, a player/NPC may be sent to the corners of the empire under military control. Potentially to be used against the Zhodani or Solomani not freelancing for nobles. I must wonder if B5 took a Solomani approach to psionics. Hmm.

There is another module that outlines anti-Zho/psionic sentiment in the 3I Spinward Marches. The noble x-officer wants to kill any of the Zho. I don't recall the module for a reread. unfortunately.

 

[Vargas]

Psionics is listed as one of the fields potentially studied at Imperial research stations going back to CT.

 

[savage]

Psionics is listed as one of the fields potentially studied at Imperial research stations going back to CT.

Ok, we study terrorism, hacking and security breaches/intrusions today.

 

[rancke]

If nobles utilized [psionics] extensively, it would be pretty well known and obtainable not unlike a different spin on the B5 universe. This is not flexible on the issue in 3I post yr800.

My opinion on this differs from your opinion. Or rather, I don't think that a noble having a secret psionic bodyguard or two or an intelligence organization having a handful of psionic operatives constitutes extensive use.


Hans

 

[savage]

My opinion on this differs from your opinion. Or rather, I don't think that a noble having a secret psionic bodyguard or two or an intelligence organization having a handful of psionic operatives constitutes extensive use.


Hans

IYTU that is fine. And I think its a great plot twist for certain nobles. Per the above canon, the military has two institutes for special miltary purposes. We also know that the Admiralty is not really at the whim of nobles. Although, I'm sure there is policy and reality differ. (Like the US President's war powers act. Its not a politically realistic direction to ignore Congress).

It's nice to see MgT provide a more open minded approach for refs like yourself.

 

[mike wightman]

Have people so soon forgotten Research Station Gamma?

The Imperium is conducting secret research into potential psionic communication across interstellar distances.

The IN is involved, psionic sophonts are kidnapped, enslaved and experimented on.

This, along with the previous LD quotes upthread, is proof enough for me that powerful Imperial nobles would secretly use psionics to further their aims.

Hans is right IMHO, there is enough circumstantial evidence to make this a reasonable assumption.

 

[rancke]

IYTU that is fine. And I think its a great plot twist for certain nobles. Per the above canon, the military has two institutes for special miltary purposes. We also know that the Admiralty is not really at the whim of nobles. Although, I'm sure there is policy and reality differ.

It's funny how when I extrapolate on existing canon, it is ATU stuff, but when you do the same it's Authorial Truth.

Now me, I think that your extrapolations are just as valid as mine. But no more than that.

IIRC, the story of the two institutes that were preserved makes no mention of just how they are used by the Imperium. Might be by the military, might not. Nor does it say that there are no alternative sources of psionic henchmen. AAMOF, I don't think nobles get their psionic henchmen from the Official Albeit Secret Imperial Psionic Institutes. The various intelligence organizations may -- probably do. But they probably have also developed alternative training facilities in the 300 years since the Psionic Suppressions. Come to that, they probably already had their own psionic training facilities long before the Suppressions.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Ok, we study terrorism, hacking and security breaches/intrusions today.

We do more than study, we employ and deny - in much the same way as the Imperium would cover up using psionics by saying they are just studying to know the enemy better.

 

[savage]

We do more than study, we employ and deny - in much the same way as the Imperium would cover up using psionics by saying they are just studying to know the enemy better.

Perhaps. However, it stated as clearly banned. Other Psionics Races openly state the negative effect in 3I. Hence, it looks more like they outcast/enslave and/or lobotomize.

 

[Quint]

...CT Canon 3I is clear that it is hard to obtain and banned. And that the public (nobles/non-nobles) have a fear of it. MgT later confirms it. If nobles utilized it extensively, it would be pretty well known and obtainable not unlike a different spin on the B5 universe. This is not flexible on the issue in 3I post yr800. Essentially, if they discover psionics, a player/NPC may be sent to the corners of the empire under military control. Potentially to be used against the Zhodani or Solomani not freelancing for nobles...QUOTE]

It's not that hard to obtain (Using CT because it's handier)

Any world Pop9+ on 11+, +1 per Pop over 9 for an Institute. Those are pretty good odds when you think about it. Finding it is 9+, +1 per Streetwise or Admin. Similarly, there seems to be an amazingly strong market for Psi Drugs - 8+ to find a dealer, +1 per Streetwise. Yes, there is prejudice, yes it is unhealthy to admit to having psionics - but there seem to be a fair number of them around...

Any hireling is Psionic on a 12, equal chance to be an informer. Penalties for discovery are 12+ lobotomy, 10+ lynching, 8+ tar-and-feather, 6+ prison, 4+ deportation (indicating that there is a better chance to be left alone (on a 2 or a 3) than to be lobotomized. Just the chance that you could be left alone is pretty amazing given what the "official stance" is.

Plus, I would just like to know how people are supposed to know that the nobles are using psychics? Plus, what does "extensively" mean? The Zhodani use psionics extensively, and I (nor anyone else) is suggesting that the Imperium is using them on anything close to that scale.

Nothing, anywhere in CT or MT, suggests that psychics are either automatically killed or are drafted by the Imperium upon discovery. You're think WH40K...

As a further note of who is likely to employ psychics? Megacorps - even if they have them carefully employed outside Imperial territory (doubtful if they are unwilling to push the law in most cases) megacorps like SuSag have still-existing Psi-Drug manufacturing facilities - you wanna bet they have some psionics on the payroll..?

D.

 

[savage]

It's not that hard to obtain (Using CT because it's handier)

Any world Pop9+ on 11+, +1 per Pop over 9 for an Institute. Those are pretty good odds when you think about it. Finding it is 9+, +1 per Streetwise or Admin. Similarly, there seems to be an amazingly strong market for Psi Drugs - 8+ to find a dealer, +1 per Streetwise. Yes, there is prejudice, yes it is unhealthy to admit to having psionics - but there seem to be a fair number of them around...

Any hireling is Psionic on a 12, equal chance to be an informer. Penalties for discovery are 12+ lobotomy, 10+ lynching, 8+ tar-and-feather, 6+ prison, 4+ deportation (indicating that there is a better chance to be left alone (on a 2 or a 3) than to be lobotomized. Just the chance that you could be left alone is pretty amazing given what the "official stance" is.

Plus, I would just like to know how people are supposed to know that the nobles are using psychics? Plus, what does "extensively" mean? The Zhodani use psionics extensively, and I (nor anyone else) is suggesting that the Imperium is using them on anything close to that scale.

Nothing, anywhere in CT or MT, suggests that psychics are either automatically killed or are drafted by the Imperium upon discovery. You're think WH40K...

As a further note of who is likely to employ psychics? Megacorps - even if they have them carefully employed outside Imperial territory (doubtful if they are unwilling to push the law in most cases) megacorps like SuSag have still-existing Psi-Drug manufacturing facilities - you wanna bet they have some psionics on the payroll..?

D.

Yes but they say its difficult for the public (not PCs). It is interesting isn't it. I think MgT made a good move. I recommend that product.

I'm not suggesting that they're not there. Corporations can leverage "heavy handed" ethics overseas today and even in the USA. So, no reason that it would not be like a "drug" culture leveraged as needed. It's clearly a phobia! I think the two military institutes are pretty convincing. As for WH40K? It's born in Traveller RPG. Have to love the eternal god, emperor committed to a machine for the last 10k years. Lucan did end up in a machine too.

Back to the Boss:
We see in interviews that Stephon was not a "severe" ruler. Yet, he was overthrown (MT) for not dealing with stagnation quickly enough. And possibly the Psionic Question. IMO

So, some nobles want the shinny weapon, as long as they have it. Others, without deep pockets, and the public have seen what happens and are terrified of it.

 

[Dagrill]

There's Braan Dilgadin, Norris' seneschal.
Apart from that, it's highly implausible that great nobles and intelligence services would eshew the use of tools as valuable as psionic adepts if there was any way they could use them. Which I submit there is.
In a setting as scantily documented as the Third Imperium, absence of evidence is not proof of absence.
Hans

I'm with Hans here, it's amazing what politicians think they can get away with
and what is uncovered is probably only a small percentage of what they've actually been up to.

So each year 1 or 2 Nobles will be found to be employing psionic individuals and the others will be roundly condemning them despite doing the same.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

So, canon recognizes some need for psionic activities, but puts it under tight controls not during the Stephon's rule. It would be very bad for a noble to be caught utilizing psionics staff. It would make a good adventure. Like B5 those are probably registered military psionics limited to certain regions, etc.

Still for those interested. MgT has character classes for more open campaigns. I don't know about GT or any of the other versions. Perhaps in an old CT fanzine there is something. I might check T20 tomorrow.

However, I may be paranoid, but if I was a Noble using a Psionic I wouldn't trust them unless I had some Psi training myself.

Although I've been watching the new version of the Tomorrow people with interest.

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

This is pure assumption, a plot device. Absence actually is proof.

No, it's evidence, not proof. Unless the subject has been dealt with specifically, in depth, in which case I agree that it would be proof.

There are far too many documents for something this important not to be clearly stated in a psionics book.

That would be a convincing argument if I believed that the subject had, in fact, been dealt with in detail. I'm not aware of this being the case, however.


Hans