The Clothes Make the Man

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Partially. Mostly because trews are traditional Scottish nethergarments and the small kilt was onvented by an Englishman in the 18th century. (Think for a minute: it's 10o C, there's a light rain, and a stiff wind off the Irish sea. You are going to spend all day walking through wet knee-high bracken without shoes or socks. Do you want a kilt or wool trouses? We scots made the senible choice.)

Mostly conceded. Except... as a kilt wearing Canadian of Scots descent on both sides, my standard weight kilt and woolen stockings do fine even in -15 C for a fair length of time. 10 degrees Celcius would be a joke! Hell, I wear *shorts* in 10 degrees Celcius. That's fall weather a lot of times here....

And the difference in value between trews and kilts probably wasn't lost on the Scots, who have a reputation for thrift... *grin*

It is a popular fashion statment among Canadian soldiers, I give you that. I don't think anyone wears it as a field or utility uniform anymore,

It won't fit well under an NBC suit and it probably isn't suited to crawling. Works fine in the square or line abreast, but not in bounding advance-to-contact...

and historically distictive field uniforms become dress uniforms in the next century. In fifty years I expect dress uniforms in woodland cammo.

Checked out modern teen fashion? Camo is cool again, just like it was in the 1980s.

The kilt may show up in some future units, but they will be no more common than shakos, kepis, Hussar's frogging, black pajamas and picklehaubes from other cultural traditions.

Maybe. I bet Bagpipes appear in more places than any other similar 'cultural' instrument, however.

Just because the USA has a stronger African influence than it does Scottish doesn't mean this is true in all places.

Where did that come from?

Your comment about Zouaves, which IIRC is a South African uniform (or at least that's where I recall seeing them mentioned, during the Boer War).

Are you telling me that Canadians don't listen to Rock 'n Roll? The American military culture was heavily influenced by the Prussians and the French as well as the British (AFAIK not African),

Though the British military tradition has been influenced by Indian, Punjabi, African, Afghani, Nepalese, etc. etc.

but for the last century or so we haven't borrowed our traditions from anybody (except we borrowed the Green Beret from the RM Commandos, but that was an accident.)

Heh, my unit all had green berets. Made excercises in NY interesting as the locals somehow figured we were all 'elite'.

Again, it all comes down to what you want in your TU. If you want marine dress uniforms to be pink tutus, you can probably justify it in terms of something like Vilani influence (maybe it has some historical significance for them). The good thing is, I don't have to justify kilts as Marine Dress Uniforms - there is at least one current canon reference to same!

Gurps Traveller Ground Forces.

I missed the reference. But I'll still argue that the kilt is an aberation. Remember that the FFW is 3700 years after the Black Watch gave up wearing the kilt, except on parade. How many martial traditions persist in our world from the Egyptian Middle Kingdom?

And yet, the Marines still have to roll to avoid Cutlass skill..... and the ranks all reflect Terran ranks (not what I would assume are Vilani ranks), etc.

I think a lot of the 3rd Imperium still bears evidence of the Rule of Man which bears clear relations to Solomani history.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Mostly conceded. Except... as a kilt wearing Canadian of Scots descent on both sides, my standard weight kilt and woolen stockings do fine even in -15 C for a fair length of time. 10 degrees Celcius would be a joke! Hell, I wear *shorts* in 10 degrees Celcius. That's fall weather a lot of times here....

My bad. I am metrically challenged. I meant 5 C to represent a brisk October day with a smirring of rain and a gentle 30 kph breeze from Iceland.

And the difference in value between trews and kilts probably wasn't lost on the Scots, who have a reputation for thrift... *grin*

Which is why it took an Englishman to invent the kilt.

Checked out modern teen fashion? Camo is cool again, just like it was in the 1980s.

Have you seen the new USAF blue camoflage? <<shudder>>

Maybe. I bet Bagpipes appear in more places than any other similar 'cultural' instrument, however.

I have no quarrel wi' the Pipes.

Your comment about Zouaves, which IIRC is a South African uniform (or at least that's where I recall seeing them mentioned, during the Boer War).

Not even close. They were French colonial troops raised in the 1830s from Berber tribesmen in Algeria. Tough light infantry emulated by volunteer units in Europe and the Americas, including regiments on both sides of the American Civil War.

Though the British military tradition has been influenced by Indian, Punjabi, African, Afghani, Nepalese, etc. etc.

My Grandfather used "all segarry" (pidgion for "all Sir Garnet Wolsely") for something that was properly organized, but then the 1st Battalion HLI was one of the few regular battalions to miss 1914 by being in India.

Heh, my unit all had green berets. Made excercises in NY interesting as the locals somehow figured we were all 'elite'.

Haw! Back in 1961 President Kennedy authorized the U.S. Special Forces, who organized at Fort Bragg. Arounbd 1962 the President was coming to inspect the base, and the SF types had to find a way to stand out in the crowd. One officer had been impressed by the RM Commando beret, so he got a couple of dozed cheap green berets. They didn't like them and planned to discard them after the Vist, but were unpleasantly surprised when that Kennedy had made them part of the SF uniform by Presidential decree.

Gurps Traveller Ground Forces.

Oh. I thought you said canon.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Checked out modern teen fashion? Camo is cool again, just like it was in the 1980s.

Have you seen the new USAF blue camoflage? <<shudder>>

Worst I've seen to date: Take US Urban Camouflage, remove the underlying white background/base colour and replace with blaze pink. It is... unimagineable. I imagine Vargr would find it 'stylish'.

Your comment about Zouaves, which IIRC is a South African uniform (or at least that's where I recall seeing them mentioned, during the Boer War).

Not even close. They were French colonial troops raised in the 1830s from Berber tribesmen in Algeria. Tough light infantry emulated by volunteer units in Europe and the Americas, including regiments on both sides of the American Civil War.

What units were dressed like this fighting for the Canucks in the Boer War then? I'll have to go back and investigate..... as I know that was where I saw the term... or maybe it was the guys that rode up to Rorke's Drift (some form of hobilars/cavalry) and rode away, after having already fought at Islawandha... maybe that's where I saw it. In any case, I assumed it was of African Origin. My thanks for the correction.

My Grandfather used "all segarry" (pidgion for "all Sir Garnet Wolsely") for something that was properly organized, but then the 1st Battalion HLI was one of the few regular battalions to miss 1914 by being in India.

My Grandad din't get so lucky. He enlisted at 15 and was on the front by 17 (they found out he was underage and wouldn't let him go over immediately) with the 16th HLI. He got to visit some of the lovely spots like the Somme, Mons, the Pursuit to the Rhiene, and the Occupation. Got home with some lung damage from mustard gas. And of course, by the time he got home in 1920, all celebrations were over and all jobs snapped up. Eventually this led to Canada.

Haw! Back in 1961 President Kennedy authorized the U.S. Special Forces, who organized at Fort Bragg. Arounbd 1962 the President was coming to inspect the base, and the SF types had to find a way to stand out in the crowd. One officer had been impressed by the RM Commando beret, so he got a couple of dozed cheap green berets. They didn't like them and planned to discard them after the Vist, but were unpleasantly surprised when that Kennedy had made them part of the SF uniform by Presidential decree.

I quite like a well formed beret, as opposed to a Tamoshanter, Glengarry, or Balmoral. Now, some of the Aussie and Kiwi hats were pretty cool. And Pith helmets look kind of neat.

When we went on ex down to work with 10th Mtn, we stopped for beer somewhere on the way home and a bunch of bikers were buying us beer... which was nice of them, though I think they may have thought we were 'green berets' and I think we might have failed to correct them....

Gurps Traveller Ground Forces.

Oh. I thought you said canon.

Hey! I may not *play* GURPS, but at least 'tis nae 'Forbidden Canon' nor has it been decanonized. So I just use it to draw source material (not that the canon status would stop me..... it just has a lot of good source material).

 

[Uncle Bob]

Your Grandfather was also in the HLI? I take back most of the bad things I've said about you.

When his kid brother was killed at Gillipoli my Grandfather went home from Boston and enlisted in one of the high-number HLI battalions in Flanders (might even have been the 16th). He made Corporal and got a belly wound. He was sent to Ireland on convalescent leave and overstayed leave to watch a football game.
As punishment they took his stripes and sent him to the "regular" battalion in mesopotamia, where he fought thr Turks from Baghdad to Mosul.

Your grandpa was also lucky. Neither of us should be here.

Oh, my bad. The 1st Battalion was in Flanders until 1916, but enough veterans were left to carry the traditions.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Your Grandfather was also in the HLI? I take back most of the bad things I've said about you.

When his kid brother was killed at Gillipoli my Grandfather went home from Boston and enlisted in one of the high-number HLI battalions in Flanders (might even have been the 16th). He made Corporal and got a belly wound. He was sent to Ireland on convalescent leave and overstayed leave to watch a football game.

Grandad had quite a time. I remember he didn't talk much about the war, but I do recall talks about losing men in the mud (one step off the boardwalk, goodbye), and the rats, and no-man's land. I remember him talking about gas, and the artillery, and all the dead horses. And about other soldiers looting jewellers etc. while he and the smarter ones hit abandoned grist mills etc. to have some extra food when the rations wagon didn't make it. And how 'wonderful' having the French on a flank was (preferred the Canucks or Aussies).

It wasn't till he was in his final stage of life, a bit of dementia, that the horrors started to come out. Like hiding in no man's land with his close boyhood chum, trying to quiet him so the nearby German patrol wouldn't here. He was making a lot of noise because he'd lost his arm. Or being buried up to the neck in mud from a nearby arty strike and having a friend suffer brain damage from suffocation in the same incident.

We have it easy....

As punishment they took his stripes and sent him to the "regular" battalion in mesopotamia, where he fought thr Turks from Baghdad to Mosul.

Your grandpa was also lucky. Neither of us should be here.

Yeah. My mom was RCAF and I was CF Infantry reserve. I remember Grandad at decoration in the cemetary and every cenotaph or memorial day that passes. The fact Rememberance Day isn't a national statutory holiday in Canada is a sad statement, IMO.

Anyway, thank God that those brave young men fought those terrible conflicts and survived, though many sadly did not. It would have been better if everyone had just taken out and shot the nobility who came up with the idea, mind.

Take care.... and remember...

 

[Uncle Bob]

Grandpa died in 1942, so I only know his stories second hand. Aparently he told very few about Flanders, or at least that Dad was willing to repeat to me.

 

[Murph]

Bob, it takes an Irishman to play the pipes and to pull off the kilt.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Murph:
Bob, it takes an Irishman to play the pipes and to pull off the kilt.

AAAAAAGGgghhhh... What an image you've put in my brain...

Out on the moors a lad in a kilt watches the sheep peacefully grazing. From over the hills comes the faint strains of an Irish piper. The piper draws closer and the pipes get louder until he sees the lad in the kilt. Suddenly he drops the pipes and rushes up to pull the lads kilt off, running over the hills waving it like a flag and laughing madly "It takes an Irishman to pull off the kilt!"...

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Murph:
Bob, it takes an Irishman to play the pipes and to pull off the kilt.

An Irishman in a kilt...
The kilt was invented by an English mill owner (named Rawlings?)I because the scots' plaids kept getting caught in the machinery. It was adopted by the Army and many highlanders and in a couple of generations people, even many scots, believe it is traditional.

So the kilt is a garment invented by an English boss to make highlander employees more productive. And some daft Irishman thinks it is an ancient Celtic costume and wears it voluntarily.

BTW, before anyone takes offense I'm half scots and half irish myself. So I would be a drunk except I am too cheap to buy a round.

 

[Aquinas]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
An Irishman in a kilt...
The kilt was invented by an English mill owner (named Rawlings?)I because the scots' plaids kept getting caught in the machinery. It was adopted by the Army and many highlanders and in a couple of generations people, even many scots, believe it is traditional.

So the kilt is a garment invented by an English boss to make highlander employees more productive. And some daft Irishman thinks it is an ancient Celtic costume and wears it voluntarily.

BTW, before anyone takes offense I'm half scots and half irish myself. So I would be a drunk except I am too cheap to buy a round. [/QB]

As a scot myself (and also Irish on my paternal grandmothers side) a Cupar of Fife I must protest. The Great Kilt (7m of heavy wool tartan held up by a leather belt) was not an English invention but tradition highland wear (the trews are a lowland beastie) the kilt (and the wearing of the tartan in general) was banned by the hanoverian pretenders to try and break the will of the Scots.

It was reintroduced by Sir Walter Scot (?), to give Queen Victoria and Prince Albert something to dress up in on their trips to Balmoral.

 

[Jame]

So Scots are cheap, huh?

Oh, I'm so sorry, I meant to type "thrifty." Now I know where my dad gets it...

(For those who wanna know, that makes me a quarter Scottish, and all from Daddy Dearest. I got my phenotype, and Germany on east, from Mom. Thank you.)

Before I forget, I've always figured that characters came with at least three pairs of clothes, middle class, and a week of underwear. If my PCs want more they're free to spend their money...

Also, I think I remember some fashion designers in GURPS Traveller. But in none of them are there any specific clothing lines or stores (e.g. Men's Wearhouse).

 

[Murph]

Most of mine wear either flight suits or BDU typ uniforms on ship, off ship, its hey whatever suits the climate/atmosphere/social level.

One of my players had many, many loudly patterned Hawaiian shirts that he wore for all social occassions.