^ Angus, when you're shaving your legs, watch out behind the knee; nicks there hurt like a S.O.B.! 
The Clothes Make the Man
- Thread starter Squid
- Start date
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
I seem to recall reading that Marines wore kilts in GT:GF, although that seems to be at odds with a rather neat presentation from (I believe) Challenge Magazine which showed the uniforms worn by the Marines in the Terran Occupation. I can't recall the issue number.
GT:GF seemed to like kilts and bagpipes for the Marines IIRC. They're very martial (the pipes) and flashy (the kilt and short jacket). And the kilt (as a kilt-owner and kilt-wearer) is an incredibly practical and warm piece of clothing.
I think the Imperium being the size it is, and probably integrating units from different traditions (Solomani, Vilani, Aslan, etc), it may well be that you have a sort of bland de-facto work dress uniform (fatigues or simple office working stuff) or two, a normal blando Standard Dress Uniform (just so everyone can look uniform) and a localized Special Dress Uniform - something that would bring out the regimental traditions of your Marine or Army Regiment or of your Navy Ship or Fleet. </font>[/QUOTE]Believe it or not that's almost exactly the way our regiment worked during my militia days
The CF had standard issue combat uniforms which could be worn tactically (makeup sleaves down, knit watch cap or rolled balaclava, came in white and olive drab and now aparantly in pixilated hi-tech camo). Or as a form of Garrison Dress. Precisely Rolled sleaves. combat boots spit shined Green Berets with regimental cap bage (Red for MPS, Maroon for Airborne until disbanded. Black originally for Armour until it bacame the headress for the restored blue uniform of the navy) Later Headress became more regimental Balmorals and Glengaries for many regiments.
'true' Garrison Dress. Tan pants Tan shirt, Berets/Glendgarries, Green tie. My regiment wore it's 'garrison' combat boots again. but some regiments had ankle boots.
Full dress - My unit wore cut away jackets and kilts. and dress shoes. other units wore other mixtures of CF general Issue and regimental issue. Enough elements were common to turn large multi unit formations into a sea of tan or green but each block had it's own colouful highlights.
Oddly, dead cow is terribly expensive. Who'd a thought?
Now mind, my original kilt set me back about $1100 AusD from Scotland. I expect to get the next one for more like $800 unless I need to get a bolt custom woven. If I want a great plaid, the amount I'll have to spend beggars the mind...
I was just thinking that on grav controlled ships and for people who like having tools at hand, the utilikilt makes a lot of sense. Scouts and Engineers might find these quite handy. And the ship is always a nice 18-20 deg C so no need to worry about dying from .... heat..... (heck, wool is warm enough... let alone leather....).
Unit? Service? (Myself, R031 Infanteer, Princess of Wales Own Regiment, retired, one half-term while at Uni)
Sometimes you'd seen boonie hats (like a khahki version of an angler/fisherman's hat) on excercise and when people were allowed to be 'enemy force', you'd see all manner of US and foreign gear show out. I noticed some guys somehow got away with wearing the much cooler jungle boots and US ripstop summer weight fatigues as enemy force... posh... much cooler than what we had on.
Whenever our unit members visited the US, they had good experiences. Everyone thought they were 'Green Berets' (ie SF) and bought us beer or wanted to trade for headgear.
I always found spit shining combat boots rather laughable. Dress Boots were made for that and you could get a coating that was a resinous kind of stuff that shined up like glass. Put some clickers on the bottom and you could look and sound pretty sharp.
C Scot R? SD&G? LSS?
The British Regmental system makes sense for a vastly dispersed Empire recruiting troops from all over (hmmm... 3rd Imperium anyone?). Anyway, that leads to a lot of different uniforms for different units from different places. But the colour and appearance is a neat bit of pageantry and helps to make the Empire look impressive but not oppressive (whereas a massly uniform armed force gives the impressive AND oppressive appearance... hello Zhodani Consulate...).
Add to which, standardized dress breaks down when you consider all the possible races in Imperial Forces (160 minor human races, Aslan, Vargr, Tursiops Galactus aka Dolphins, etc).
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Inter Pericula Intrepidi
Lake Supperior Scottish Regiment.
as for spit shining combats... heh yeah.. don't ask traditions to make SENSE.
Yanks always have cool toys. I still use my 'ranger blanket' that I purchased from 'kitmasters' as a comforter or a 'sleepover' cover.
For more on my take on the canadian military and how it relates to Traveller product check out my thread on Twilight 2000... Canada after the Twilight War.
Lake Supperior Scottish Regiment.
as for spit shining combats... heh yeah.. don't ask traditions to make SENSE.
Yanks always have cool toys. I still use my 'ranger blanket' that I purchased from 'kitmasters' as a comforter or a 'sleepover' cover.
For more on my take on the canadian military and how it relates to Traveller product check out my thread on Twilight 2000... Canada after the Twilight War.
Well met Laddie! I had a friend who was a member of LSS briefly!
And several who've attended Lakehead.
Me, I just lived in Dryden for six years and toured every logging road in Northern Ontario as my folks idea of 'a day out'. But that was a while back
And I *never* ask traditions to make sense in the
military. Perish the thoght.
On Canada in the Twilight War, did you ever read
the few pages from the Challenge Mag that covered
their take on it? I thought they did a pretty
interesting thing or two with Canada. Though
Vancouver Island and the Lower Mainland of BC
didn't look like a place you wanted to be. Not
that my living near Ottawa would have been any
great heck either. "Say, what is that bright
flas...."
And several who've attended Lakehead.
Me, I just lived in Dryden for six years and toured every logging road in Northern Ontario as my folks idea of 'a day out'. But that was a while back
And I *never* ask traditions to make sense in the
military. Perish the thoght.
On Canada in the Twilight War, did you ever read
the few pages from the Challenge Mag that covered
their take on it? I thought they did a pretty
interesting thing or two with Canada. Though
Vancouver Island and the Lower Mainland of BC
didn't look like a place you wanted to be. Not
that my living near Ottawa would have been any
great heck either. "Say, what is that bright
flas...."
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
heh. it was a while back for me. (11 years ago a metabolic illness sidelined me from that ... avocation. it was nice having my thyroid problem diagnosed after years of berating myself for my 'weakness' but obviously I was no longer deployable nor employable)
I attended Lakehead off and on in the late 80's working on my universal 1st year. now I'm on the single course every now and then plan working on upgrading from an RPN to RN.
If your friends are recent students. They may know me as the Secretary and resident Curmudgeon of CThULU (Cardless THeoretical Universes of Lakehead U.)
IT's a young club though. just finished it's third year of life. and I was only deeply involved for the first two.
I had friends in Dryden though. And past through it on my last Road trip to winnepeg (Warcon ix -- A warhammer 40 k tourney)
but I think we're getting a little OT. hmmm Didn't read that Challenge mag. Gonning to have to find it now I guess.
yep my days of Army clothes are done. my souveniers are so threadbare from constant wear you can see my under shorts through my combat pants.
Nowadays it seems I live in hospital scrubs and the occassional Nursing logo'd golf shirt.
I attended Lakehead off and on in the late 80's working on my universal 1st year. now I'm on the single course every now and then plan working on upgrading from an RPN to RN.
If your friends are recent students. They may know me as the Secretary and resident Curmudgeon of CThULU (Cardless THeoretical Universes of Lakehead U.)
IT's a young club though. just finished it's third year of life. and I was only deeply involved for the first two.
I had friends in Dryden though. And past through it on my last Road trip to winnepeg (Warcon ix -- A warhammer 40 k tourney)
but I think we're getting a little OT. hmmm Didn't read that Challenge mag. Gonning to have to find it now I guess.
yep my days of Army clothes are done. my souveniers are so threadbare from constant wear you can see my under shorts through my combat pants.
Nowadays it seems I live in hospital scrubs and the occassional Nursing logo'd golf shirt.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
ER... I'd like to but I can't seem to locate either the Email addy or a private message/email button in your profile...
hang on..
papagolfwhiskey@shaw.ca
That will reach me.
hang on..
papagolfwhiskey@shaw.ca
That will reach me.
Hey, Guys!
I never had anything to do with military service, so I can't speak on the subject of uniforms.
As for other attire, I have certain personal standards. For instance, I put in a lot of time as a belter. So, anytime I'm in space (shipboard, highport, or pressure dome), I'm never more than arm's length from a vacc suit... if not actually wearing one. And, I've gotten VERY good at getting into one in a hurry.
As for dirtside, peaceful casual wear consists of cargo pants, t-shirt, ballistic cloth vest, and whatever legal concealed weapon I can get away with (usually a boot blade). As you can probably tell, I'm a dress-down kinda guy.
I've managed to squirrel away a sizable amount of credits. So, on the few occasions I've had a chance to rub elbows with the upper crust, I've been able to convince reputable tailors that "Sir is not a tightwad, and Sir would damn well like his clothes ready by 1700 hours." When you can say "money is no object", and MEAN it, wondrous things can be done with a bolt of cloth.
On the whole, I prefer the casual wear or a vacc suit.
That's all for now. Later!
Capt. Michael T. Gideon
Far Trader "Queen-High Straight"
I never had anything to do with military service, so I can't speak on the subject of uniforms.
As for other attire, I have certain personal standards. For instance, I put in a lot of time as a belter. So, anytime I'm in space (shipboard, highport, or pressure dome), I'm never more than arm's length from a vacc suit... if not actually wearing one. And, I've gotten VERY good at getting into one in a hurry.
As for dirtside, peaceful casual wear consists of cargo pants, t-shirt, ballistic cloth vest, and whatever legal concealed weapon I can get away with (usually a boot blade). As you can probably tell, I'm a dress-down kinda guy.
I've managed to squirrel away a sizable amount of credits. So, on the few occasions I've had a chance to rub elbows with the upper crust, I've been able to convince reputable tailors that "Sir is not a tightwad, and Sir would damn well like his clothes ready by 1700 hours." When you can say "money is no object", and MEAN it, wondrous things can be done with a bolt of cloth.
On the whole, I prefer the casual wear or a vacc suit.
That's all for now. Later!
Capt. Michael T. Gideon
Far Trader "Queen-High Straight"
Kilts do not fit well inside battledress. That makes it a bad choice practicaly for marine utilities and a bad choice symbolically for marine corps dress uniforms.
Kilts are not practical in zero-G (particularly not if "regimental"). I can't see the Navy, Scouts, or Merchants wearing kilts either.
My Great Uncle Willy died wearing his kilt as a piper in the Scottish Rifles, so this isn't US of A prejudice. My arguements don't apply to my Grandfather's trews, though.
Kilts are not practical in zero-G (particularly not if "regimental"). I can't see the Navy, Scouts, or Merchants wearing kilts either.
My Great Uncle Willy died wearing his kilt as a piper in the Scottish Rifles, so this isn't US of A prejudice. My arguements don't apply to my Grandfather's trews, though.
If this logic pertained, which it doesn't, then no one would wear kilts, or a lot of other types of uniforms, very few of which would pass muster under an NBC suit.
Nor are many other forms of dress uniform. Most of them would restrict movement far more than a kilt (high collar dress jacket anyone?). Dress
uniforms are not meant for zero-G wear. And considering how much of each other's hides Marines see, I'm sure it won't bother anyone if on some rare occasion they happen to be in kilt when the power goes down (shouldn't happen....).
Depending on how you interpret a space (vacc) suit, you will find that it is necessary to evacuate as much air from the inside as possible in order not to have bubbles (with all the fun that entails with differing external pressure). Some may be gel filled. Hard shells can get away with having air inside. But soft suits won't. So many forms of dress that have buttons, things in the pockets or attached to the belt, etc. would be problematic in these situations. It seems likely to me that either a tailored vacc suit or a simple coverall would be the most common 'work wear' on ships. And marines would wear a wicking thermal sleeve underneath and they'd pop off the coverall and slip into their battle dress wearing nothing but the sleeve (think olympic speed skater). They won't be climbing in with trousers with belts and combat boots on anyway!
My Great Uncle Willy died wearing his kilt as a piper in the Scottish Rifles, so this isn't US of A prejudice. My arguements don't apply to my Grandfather's trews, though.
So the kilt, in a sense, is no less practical. In most AG fields, it'll hang fine. It can be removed by a quick peel (assume fastening is some super velcro or the like), faster than trousers. It may even be that you board vacc suits and battle dress nekkid... especially if they end up gel filled.
So I'm not sure your take on the kilt in actual service use really contemplates all the issues/alternatives....
I've always assumed that battle dress needs to be skin-tight on the inside (for a full discussion read "Forever War").
IMTU, the Heinies* fall into 2 groups - 'Skinnies' wear a skin-tight pressure suit into their suits (universally called 'cans'), either for modesty or for the 'pressure-bandage' effect that keeps wet-suited divers from bleeding to death when sharks mistake them for seals. The other group is the 'Buffies' who go into their cans in the buff.
*Heinies - Term used by battle-dress equiped personnel for themselves. Origin unknown, but believed to be pre-stellar Solomani.
Either way, they don't wear dress uniforms under the rig (although optical camoflage circuits are frequently set to 'Dress Maroon' on appropriate occasion). For those of us NOT from British Commonwealth coutries, kilts add a nice touch of the 'familiarly exotic', while sounding more martial than -
"Sergeant Zuul stepped onto the blistering tarmac, his undress sarong whipping in the scorching breeze of the landing jets."
IMTU, the Heinies* fall into 2 groups - 'Skinnies' wear a skin-tight pressure suit into their suits (universally called 'cans'), either for modesty or for the 'pressure-bandage' effect that keeps wet-suited divers from bleeding to death when sharks mistake them for seals. The other group is the 'Buffies' who go into their cans in the buff.
*Heinies - Term used by battle-dress equiped personnel for themselves. Origin unknown, but believed to be pre-stellar Solomani.
Either way, they don't wear dress uniforms under the rig (although optical camoflage circuits are frequently set to 'Dress Maroon' on appropriate occasion). For those of us NOT from British Commonwealth coutries, kilts add a nice touch of the 'familiarly exotic', while sounding more martial than -
"Sergeant Zuul stepped onto the blistering tarmac, his undress sarong whipping in the scorching breeze of the landing jets."
I thought the maroon MI uniform was undress (i.e. Service or Walking out) uniforms? At any rate, the kilt can certainly be worn for dress uniform, so can a blue bikini or a suit of maximillian plate. I am unconvinced that the kilt is inevitable, or even particularly likely, but it's YTU.
I expect most battledress troopers wear a liquid cooling undergarment underneath battledress. This may nor may not be combined with an elastic Space Activity Suit in case of depressurization, but naked seems unlikely.
I was thinking of floating skirts offending politicians and civilians, rather than each other. But ya'll have a point. IMTU merchant/scout/squid spacecrew will wear a space activity suit (a "skin suit") 24/7, and need something over it with pockets. I have been assuming a baggy jacket and cargo trousers, but a vest and utilikilt works almost as well.
I expect most battledress troopers wear a liquid cooling undergarment underneath battledress. This may nor may not be combined with an elastic Space Activity Suit in case of depressurization, but naked seems unlikely.
I was thinking of floating skirts offending politicians and civilians, rather than each other. But ya'll have a point. IMTU merchant/scout/squid spacecrew will wear a space activity suit (a "skin suit") 24/7, and need something over it with pockets. I have been assuming a baggy jacket and cargo trousers, but a vest and utilikilt works almost as well.
Well, it is hardly inevitable
One could chalk it up to the generations of Solomani influence.
Ask me why I hear bagpipes at funeral processions and such (such as the UN one the ohter day in Baghdad as they took the dead envoy to the plane) when the units in question have no highland heritage.... I think the answer is 'because it seemed to fit'. The kilt might just have been adapted for those reasons. Or maybe some other races out there used something similar - its a big universe.
I assumed a wicking layer, but the liquid cooling (or even a passive or electrical cooling system) are also valid suggestions.
Naked was more a nod to SST.... and if all the females were Denise Richards...
Good point. But I can be very certain they'd be pretty offended by zero G too.... so the Captain would be likely to see that the Grav Plates were working when any muckety muck came to town. And if they went out, that probably means something bad is going on and worrying about what the Marines *look* like is the last thing that should be concerning any passengers....
I think the most likely shipboard outer layer is a coverall for two reasons - the pockets you mention and the fact it is one-piece and easy to get on and off if you have to get into a vacc suit or into battle dress....
But this is why everyone's TU is slightly different
Uh, I never said that offended sensibilites were an important concern with marines, rather for other spacefaring services.
Allthough films made by the press services of marine operations might be a problem... especially if unedited film starts showing up on gay ⌧ sites.
In the ACW many militia wore the preposterous "Zouve" uniform but few (none?) wore kilts. Even in Scotland the kilt (feileadh beg) was only briefly worn as civilian dress (c. 1725-1900 in parts of the highlands) and in many regiments only the pipers wore/wear kilts.
http://www.scottish-history.com/kilt.shtml
Allthough films made by the press services of marine operations might be a problem... especially if unedited film starts showing up on gay ⌧ sites.
In the ACW many militia wore the preposterous "Zouve" uniform but few (none?) wore kilts. Even in Scotland the kilt (feileadh beg) was only briefly worn as civilian dress (c. 1725-1900 in parts of the highlands) and in many regiments only the pipers wore/wear kilts.
http://www.scottish-history.com/kilt.shtml
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
I think the Marines would shut the sites down rather quickly. Possibly using an ortillery strike...
The Navy can be kind of prissy, so you are probably correct
Ask me sometime about the story of the Infantry and the Biker Bar (Real World) and what happens when the Army takes it in its mind to straighten out some people who are doing unsavory things....
Many highland units wore Tartan Trews for some reasons of practicality and cost (kilts are expensive!).
And yet, in plenty of places, it is the dress univorm of choice. Throughout the Commonwealth, there are units where *everyone* wears the kilt. This is especially true in Canadian Highland units such as CScotR, IIRC. (Best friends served in one). Also, you'll find there are a surprising number of folk who wear them as formal wear with the appropriate jacket and shirt.
Just because the USA has a stronger African influence than it does Scottish doesn't mean this is true in all places.
Again, it all comes down to what you want in your TU. If you want marine dress uniforms to be pink tutus, you can probably justify it in terms of something like Vilani influence (maybe it has some historical significance for them). The good thing is, I don't have to justify kilts as Marine Dress Uniforms - there is at least one current canon reference to same!
Have fun!
Originally posted by kaladorn:
Many highland units wore Tartan Trews for some reasons of practicality and cost (kilts are expensive!).
Partially. Mostly because trews are traditional Scottish nethergarments and the small kilt was onvented by an Englishman in the 18th century. (Think for a minute: it's 10o C, there's a light rain, and a stiff wind off the Irish sea. You are going to spend all day walking through wet knee-high bracken without shoes or socks. Do you want a kilt or wool trouses? We scots made the senible choice.)
And yet, in plenty of places, it is the dress univorm of choice. Throughout the Commonwealth, there are units where *everyone* wears the kilt. This is especially true in Canadian Highland units such as CScotR, IIRC. (Best friends served in one). Also, you'll find there are a surprising number of folk who wear them as formal wear with the appropriate jacket and shirt.
It is a popular fashion statment among Canadian soldiers, I give you that. I don't think anyone wears it as a field or utility uniform anymore, and historically distictive field uniforms become dress uniforms in the next century. In fifty years I expect dress uniforms in woodland cammo.
The kilt may show up in some future units, but they will be no more common than shakos, kepis, Hussar's frogging, black pajamas and picklehaubes from other cultural traditions.
Just because the USA has a stronger African influence than it does Scottish doesn't mean this is true in all places.
Where did that come from? Are you telling me that Canadians don't listen to Rock 'n Roll? The American military culture was heavily influenced by the Prussians and the French as well as the British (AFAIK not African), but for the last century or so we haven't borrowed our traditions from anybody (except we borrowed the Green Beret from the RM Commandos, but that was an accident.)
Again, it all comes down to what you want in your TU. If you want marine dress uniforms to be pink tutus, you can probably justify it in terms of something like Vilani influence (maybe it has some historical significance for them). The good thing is, I don't have to justify kilts as Marine Dress Uniforms - there is at least one current canon reference to same!
I missed the reference. But I'll still argue that the kilt is an aberation. Remember that the FFW is 3700 years after the Black Watch gave up wearing the kilt, except on parade. How many martial traditions persist in our world from the Egyptian Middle Kingdom?
Many highland units wore Tartan Trews for some reasons of practicality and cost (kilts are expensive!).
Partially. Mostly because trews are traditional Scottish nethergarments and the small kilt was onvented by an Englishman in the 18th century. (Think for a minute: it's 10o C, there's a light rain, and a stiff wind off the Irish sea. You are going to spend all day walking through wet knee-high bracken without shoes or socks. Do you want a kilt or wool trouses? We scots made the senible choice.)
And yet, in plenty of places, it is the dress univorm of choice. Throughout the Commonwealth, there are units where *everyone* wears the kilt. This is especially true in Canadian Highland units such as CScotR, IIRC. (Best friends served in one). Also, you'll find there are a surprising number of folk who wear them as formal wear with the appropriate jacket and shirt.
It is a popular fashion statment among Canadian soldiers, I give you that. I don't think anyone wears it as a field or utility uniform anymore, and historically distictive field uniforms become dress uniforms in the next century. In fifty years I expect dress uniforms in woodland cammo.
The kilt may show up in some future units, but they will be no more common than shakos, kepis, Hussar's frogging, black pajamas and picklehaubes from other cultural traditions.
Just because the USA has a stronger African influence than it does Scottish doesn't mean this is true in all places.
Where did that come from? Are you telling me that Canadians don't listen to Rock 'n Roll? The American military culture was heavily influenced by the Prussians and the French as well as the British (AFAIK not African), but for the last century or so we haven't borrowed our traditions from anybody (except we borrowed the Green Beret from the RM Commandos, but that was an accident.)
Again, it all comes down to what you want in your TU. If you want marine dress uniforms to be pink tutus, you can probably justify it in terms of something like Vilani influence (maybe it has some historical significance for them). The good thing is, I don't have to justify kilts as Marine Dress Uniforms - there is at least one current canon reference to same!
I missed the reference. But I'll still argue that the kilt is an aberation. Remember that the FFW is 3700 years after the Black Watch gave up wearing the kilt, except on parade. How many martial traditions persist in our world from the Egyptian Middle Kingdom?