Tell me about Pocket Empires

[Icosahedron]

I fully understand. I'm thinking along the lines of a turn per week pace; I just don't have the free time to devote to Traveller that I used to.

Likewise. Let's see if anyone else is interested and take it from there.

I think we fundamentally agree. Your solution, however, is more detailed.

Yeah, I think it's just the problem I was solving was more detailed.

Good catch, oops. Clear proof one should not write multi-variable equations late at night. Please let me try again: TL squared * (1 + 0.2 * (size -5)) in hundreds of millions.

Example Earth = 7 squared * (1 + 0.2 * (8-5))
= 49 * (1 + 0.6)
= 49 * 1.6
= 7.84 billion

Example Rhylanor = 15 squared * (1 + 0.2 * (4 -5))
= 225 * (1 - 0.2)
= 225 * 0.8
= 18 billion. Earth at the same tech level would support 36 billion.

Seems to be in the ballpark.

Sounds reasonable. Bear in mind though, that the majority of Earth's population today is from nations whose effective TL is below 7. I don't think populations have peaked from the Industrial Revolution yet. You might be able to support 10 billion with TL5.

EDIT: Another thought is that your equation should factor in how poor the planet is. A desert world will have a lower max pop than a garden world of the same size.

The `tooth-to-tail' argument is a good one, but I think maintaining a TL-2 army that could engage a TL-15 army on equal terms would be ENORMOUSLY expensive, not equivalently expensive as written in the PE rules.

Not sure. I haven't had cause to apply myself to that problem yet. One thought is that it depends on standards. If you're providing those troops with a calorie balanced diet, centrally heated barracks, showers, daily clean clothing, etc, you could be right. OTOH, if they're living in teepees, foraging from the land and changing their clothes once a year whether they're dirty or not, then maybe they don't cost so much to support?

Maybe they would. It doesn't make sense to me (nor is it consistent with TCS). It is probably not worth worrying about, I would just be curious to hear the designers' rationale.



A mechanism already exists in PE for leaders to influence popularity with spending. I would think an unpopular leader's dictatorship would be less efficient because said dictator would have to put a premium on loyalty in his subordinates, thus having less efficient departments. The efficiency of theocracies is clearly debatable. Is the model used that of the lean and focused monastic orders in the 10th century, the excesses and waste of the church in the 15th century, or the economic ineptitude of modern day Iran? The rules indicate a vibrant and growing theocratic government, but history is replete with less enviable examples. Also, it isn't the hair shirts that break the budget, it is the pegs on which to hang them that cost so much.

Again, this isn't something I've flagged up in the past, so I don't have many thoughts on the matter.

I agree that if the habitation is available there should be no restriction to growth, but building the habitation should be more expensive, which should slow growth. Maybe you're right about the balancing effect of cold weather, but only at tech levels below the invention of Wii and Tivo

I think soaps and sitcoms were the breaking technology.

Thanks, and thank you for the counterpoint.

You're welcome. It's good to discuss.

 

[OIT]

Likewise. Let's see if anyone else is interested and take it from there.

Sounds good. I think a PE game with 4-5 players could be a lot of fun. Either milieu zero or a colony oriented game in the rim (Amderstun sector, rimward of Hadiji sector) at, or just after, the time of the Solomani Rim War might work.

Sounds reasonable. Bear in mind though, that the majority of Earth's population today is from nations whose effective TL is below 7. I don't think populations have peaked from the Industrial Revolution yet. You might be able to support 10 billion with TL5.

EDIT: Another thought is that your equation should factor in how poor the planet is. A desert world will have a lower max pop than a garden world of the same size.

Good points. Sigh, back to the drawing board...

Not sure. I haven't had cause to apply myself to that problem yet. One thought is that it depends on standards. If you're providing those troops with a calorie balanced diet, centrally heated barracks, showers, daily clean clothing, etc, you could be right. OTOH, if they're living in teepees, foraging from the land and changing their clothes once a year whether they're dirty or not, then maybe they don't cost so much to support?

This one I'm willing to try playtesting as written under the rules to see how it plays out before imposing a radical change.

 

[Icosahedron]

Well, we could playtest one or two things if we get a game going. Doesn't seem to be a lot of people clamouring at the door just yet, though, just the odd tumbleweed blowing by...

Perhaps you should post an invite on the PBP OOC forum.

 

[DaveChase]

Well, I would be interested but honestly

I don't have a clue about PE.

I know what it is, but I don't own it or anything related to it.

Dave Chase

 

[Icosahedron]

Join the club.
OIT has just bought it and given it a preliminary read-through, and I've had it a while, used it occasionally for campaign background, but not properly playtested it. (At one PE turn per regular game year, you don't get to use it much).

 

[aramis]

(At one PE turn per regular game year, you don't get to use it much).

Unless it is the focus of your campaign....

 

[OIT]

Pocket Empires Campaign

Alright! We're up to 2-3 players already: Icosohedron, DaveChase, and Aramis (if he is interested...). This is an open call for anyone else who wants to play. I think 4-5 players would be optimal, more than that and a single sector might be too cramped.

Materials needed:
1) Pocket Empires. It is available on pdf from Drivethrurpg for $7.
2) Micsrosoft Excel. PE has a fair amount of bookkeeping which a spreadsheet program would vastly simplify. I propose Excel for the drudgery, unless anyone objects.
3) Patience. I have never ref'd a PE game; I sure my learning curve will be as steep as everyone elses.
4) More Patience. Traveller is not central to my life and the amount of time I can devote has a finite limit. I propose a one turn per real life week pace, which will make for a fairly slow game.
5) Imagination. Naturally.

Campaign Details:
1) Setting.
a) Canopus or Aldebaran sector during the Long Night (which would allow Davechase to point to the night sky and identify the location of the game for his kids ). I would to keep the canon stellar data but re-generate to sector using book 6 to thin out the number of garden worlds.
b) Amderstun sector (rimward of Malorn sector - not rimward of Hadiji as originally posted), which has the advantage of being outside the scope of canon OTU, but still adjacent to it. This would be a lower population, colony oriented setting, also book 6 generated.
c) other. I'm open to ideas.
2) Start. Whatever setting we pick, it will take me up to a few weeks to build it, but we should be able to start in any case by late March. While I'm doing that, everyone else can generate their families/parties/clergy (as appropriate), choose their preferred form of government, decide whether to be indigenous to the sector or exterior interlopers, and create a backstory.
3) Rhythym. I propose we pick a day of the week for everyone to have their actions for a given turn to me and another day of the week for me to have results and other tidbits (intel reports, TNS equivalent bulletins, etc) out to the players.
4) House Rules. For a first game, I would like to limit changes to maybe one or two extra or midified rules.

What else?

 

[DaveChase]

Well for $7, I guess I am in.

But don't expect much, cause I have never even read through before this coming week.

Dave Chase

 

[OIT]

Yes to all the above. Questions after doing a quick read thru
It say you need T4 (Marc Millers Traveller). Do I need it for this game?
It reads like a BirthRight game (AD&D) were politics besides GNP, Resources, Military and such are going to be a factor, yes?

I don't have T4, nor do I have a burning desire to get it. Leader generation can be done with CT easily enough and that is probably a system everyone has access to. We could do a point system for assigning important skills (admin, leader, tactics, etc) or we could just all agree to be adults.

1. First I guess I will have to generate some kids, so it might take me about 3 years to find a willing to be paid mother. Guess you will have to count me out this game of PE
:rofl:
:rofl:

Then you'd better get busy, we don't want to have to wait any longer than necessary! :rofl:

Actually, in PE you get to create an entire extended family!

I don't care where its set as long as we all start close to the same start line of availabilties

Yeah, I want to be fair. There may be some differences in starts (astrography, for example) between players, but I don't want anyone to be cheated out of a fair shot in the game.

2. Where or to whom do we post this stuff. Being new my self, I would like some to at least check out my start up material to make sure I am doing things the correct way.

I'll post my e-mail once the players are set. Generating the family is covered in chapter 2 of PE (paid mother not required ). there is no set format for the rest, but some communication about how you see your empire, what your goals are, and a backstory will help me tailor the setting and make for better role-playing.

3. Sounds fine. I might suggest that there be probably 2 days between when we have to have our reports/turns in to you and when you tell us what happen(s). That gives you some time to look over everything and such before making the final turn report.

That would be good.

4. Since I am new to PE, please make sure to fully reference what those changes are, so that I can placecard them and not forget since I am learning PE for the first time.

Any rule changes will be agreed upon by all players before we start.

 

[Icosahedron]

I'll post my e-mail once the players are set.

How about just PM us with the email instead of posting it publicly. Might be safer for you that way
Dave Chase

Shouldn't we just open a thread on the PBP forum here? I'd find it awkward to play a game via direct emails, and since a main purpose of this game is playtesting, the presence of a few lurkers who could post suggestions in an OOC thread might help us - and there is the sharing aspect of giving our fellow Travellers something to read.

We will probably need to converse outside of the threads, of course, so Dave's suggestion is a good one there.

 

[Icosahedron]

At one PE turn per regular game year, you don't get to use it much.

Unless it is the focus of your campaign....

Well, this will be the first opportunity I've had to play it as a focus. Previously it's just been a background setting.

I have one current online game that has been running for a couple of years, in which I played a turn of PE to set the political/strategic scene for the LBB-level game and I have yet to play the second turn cos the main action hasn't taken up a year yet!

You don't get to learn the ropes of PE very quickly at that pace.

So I'm just as much of a beginner as Dave and OIT. Maybe more so, cos they've been avidly reading PE this week and I haven't picked it up in quite a while - in fact, I'm not exactly sure where it is...

 

[aramis]

One word of warning about T4 vs the other rulesets:

T4 has Massive skill receipt inflation.

Skill receipt rates in T4:
1 skill per year
1 skill for 1st term
1 skill for promotion (officer or enlisted)
1 skill for commission
1 skill for special duty
1 skill per 2 years for rankless services (making 6/term+SD)
ignoring up to 3 rank and service skills

thus 4-8 skills per term, instead of
CT 1-4 per term Bk2
CT Bk4-7 0-20* per term (heavily centered around 2 per term)
MT Basic 1-8 per term (2-5 for rankless services)
TNE 1-7 per term ignoring 1st term excesses in a couple careers.

*4 schools, making all skill rolls. bloody great rare; I've seen 10 levels in a term, tho'.

 

[OIT]

PE Game Characters

Icosahedron and Dave,
Good call about using the PbP thread and PM'ing my email. I'll start a thread in the PbP forum for our game and, once the players are set, I'll PM my email for off-line ref-player stuff.

Aramis,
Are you in?

Aramis and Dave,
My main goal is to run a fun and enjoyable game for all, so your points about skill inflation in T4 and the `nurture' paragraph in the PE rulebook are right on the mark. Page 90-91 of the PDF use a 4 skills per term metric for the quick character generation method. If someone wanted to be a munchkin, knowing our game will be almost exclusively PE with very little Traveller, he or she could use the `nurture' paragraph to build 38-42 year old characters with Leader-10, Admin-10 (or Tactics-20 and nothing for generals, Diplomacy-20 and nothing else for diplomats, etc) and no other skills and waltz through the toughest "impossible" tasks in the rulebook. To my way of thinking, that skews the game horribly.

We could convert the T4 task system to a 2D CT system, something like:

Difficult task = 8+ to succeed
Formidable = 10+
Staggering = 12+
Impossible = 14+

Relevant skill acts as positive DM, natural 12 = spectacular success, natural 2 = spectacular failure.

Therefore, a pretty good character in a given area (primary skill-3) would achieve difficult tasks most of the time 5+, formidable about half the time 7+, staggering tasks about 28% of the time 9+, and impossible taks only rarely 11+.

A really good character in a given area (primary skill-5) would complete staggering tasks about half the time and would find impossible tasks challenging.

DMs for hexidecimal characteristics (Int, Edu, End) could be something like:
1 = -3
2-3 = -2
4-5 = -1
6-10 = 0
11-12 = +1
13-14 = +2
15 = +3

Then players could generate characters via CT with the 'Lets all be adults' mindset in play (if some sends me a family of `randomly generated' CT Supp 4 nobles who all have Leader-8, Admin-8, Liaison-6, I'll start asking questions). The other, more draconian, method would be to assign each family member 5-6 points to be alloted to each of the PE relevant skills (Leader, Admin, Liaison, Tactics, Fleet Tactics, Survey - did I miss any?). Personally, I think we can make the former work, but it's up to you guys.

Tasks based on PE characteristics (culture, prestige, etc) could be used per the rulebook or converted to a system like the above.

Once the game is in play, I figure I'll be rolling most of the dice, so I don't want to get bogged down in task system mechanics. I really have no personal axe to grind about this or that system, but we should all agree on the system to use so each player can reasonably estimate their chances of succeeding at something in the game beforehand.

What do you guys think?

 

[aramis]

No, I'm not in. However, I figured I shoud make you aware of the big issue with T4...

Also, you might want to carefully check PE first, before adopting a different task engine... ISTR that a couple of tasks are reliant upon it more tightly than normal.

 

[Icosahedron]

I'm rules-easy.

This whole game is an experiment from my POV. Try something, if it works, great, if not, try something else.

I'm about as adult as it gets. <carefully unwinds fingers from behind back>.

Dave's points system for skills suits me.

 

[OIT]

Aramis,
Fair enough. If you change your mind just holler. thanks for the input, BTW.

DaveChase and Icosahedron,
Dave's system looks fine to me. We can go with that and keep the T4 task system per the PE rules intact.

Do you guys have any preferences on setting? The more I think about it, the more I think a non-canon version of the Canopus sector during the Long Night might work best.

 

[warwizard]

Is it too late to get into this campaign?