Technology & Progression

[Dragoner]

Been playing since 1979 and it has never mattered, a suit is a suit.

 

[kilemall]

Been playing since 1979 and it has never mattered, a suit is a suit.

Entertainment choice and that’s fine. I treat the vacc suits as mini spaceships and express how much of a spacer a character is and resource choices.

 

[aramis]

One if the issues with Traveller's technology system is the lack of efficiency and progression. As an example, Vacc suits in Traveller rarely get lighter, less expensive, or add additional features. This true of pretty much all components, equipment, and weapons. There is no systematic way to reduce cost, weight, or manufacturing time. There is no benefit to additional capabilities and if there are they are always more expensive.

I do recall in the old days a supplement or article that discussed technological progression of vacc suits, and that may have been DGP. There was even a modular build system for custom vacc suits in CT JTAS.

Should components and equipment get lighter, cost less, or add capabilities. Not just vacc suits as an example, but all technology?

Just one man's opinion, but I thought it would be a neat discussion.

Best regards.

That's not true of all editions; it's true of CT, for example, blatantly false for MegaTraveller... and yoyos about for other editions.

 

[Condottiere]

In the more bulkier versions, you need to develop a skill to use it effectively.

So skintight, or tracksuit would be rather more pragmatic.

 

[Dragoner]

One is more of a vehicle:



vs what would be typical in Traveller:

 

[RossWinn]

That's not true of all editions; it's true of CT, for example, blatantly false for MegaTraveller... and yoyos about for other editions.

Yeah, but isn't that part of the issue and not a solution. I am just working through the things that frustrate me in 2025, and tech progression is one of them.

 

[McPerth]

In MT WBH the vacc suits improve with the TL, being lighter and affecting less to DEX, as do the PLSS ).

Also, from TL14 on, tailored vacc suits exist.

 

[RossWinn]

In MT WBH the vacc suits improve with the TL, being lighter and affecting less to DEX, as do the PLSS ).

Also, from TL14 on, tailored vacc suits exist.

Again, Vacc suits may have been a bad example, but there isn’t one for Mongoose Traveller 2e, nor is there a general system for tech progression. There are pieces here or there, but not an overall system.

 

[kilemall]

One is more of a vehicle:

View attachment 6880

vs what would be typical in Traveller:

View attachment 6881

EVA vs inside hull pressure suits with oxygen lines next to seating.

 

[Condottiere]

What you want is the minimum necessary, to protect against vacuum and zero pressure.

As I recall, Pournelle's idea was to use the skin itself as the pressure regulator, and the rubber suit to protect against the vacuum.

I'm guessing some flexible suit, honeycombed to regulate pressure and temperature.

 

[coliver988]

And I'll just throw this out there about tech progressions: we usually get it wrong. Things jump and change in odd directions. You think Traveller gamers love to argue about star system generation? TL is the same. So really for me it is entirely IMTU. I have one planet that had TL 17 or so AI but no jump drives (it collapsed a few thousand years back; think one of these explains that system: https://traveller-ct.blogspot.com/search/label/pax stellar )

and of course, this book is an interesting read and mostly says things will suddenly change without a lot of warning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

an established set of rules for specifics on TL progressions is, to me at least, a fool's errand. Some things will get better/cheaper/easier to use, other things as mentioned in this thread (bolt rifles for instance) really won't progress.

And while it is a lot of fun to discuss it, in the end I'd just wing it using existing examples (World Builder - I have the Grand Census book and that vacc suit is there and all my Scouts have a tailored vacc suit of course). And Mongoose also has some detailed in a few places: I have the ship deck plans I backed on KS and they have Naval vacc suits detailed a bit if I recall. See https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/products/element-class-cruisers-shipbuilders-blueprints)

edit: corrected link

edit 2: and there is an old short story where most everyone else in the galaxy figured out FTL around the industrial Age. they try to capture Earth and we find that we just did not arrive at what was apparently something simple but using a different approach than we use for math. So things will be very different for a different set of parameters. Butterfly effect and all that.

 

[Dragoner]

Sushi EVA Gone Wrong by Sabakakrazny (Bryan Gibson) is one of my more favorite Traveller depictions:



He also did Orbital Repairs

 

[Dragoner]

And I'll just throw this out there about tech progressions: we usually get it wrong. Things jump and change in odd directions. You think Traveller gamers love to argue about star system generation? TL is the same. So really for me it is entirely IMTU. I have one planet that had TL 17 or so AI but no jump drives (it collapsed a few thousand years back; think one of these explains that system: https://traveller-ct.blogspot.com/search/label/pax stellar )

and of course, this book is an interesting read and mostly says things will suddenly change without a lot of warning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

an established set of rules for specifics on TL progressions is, to me at least, a fool's errand. Some things will get better/cheaper/easier to use, other things as mentioned in this thread (bolt rifles for instance) really won't progress.

And while it is a lot of fun to discuss it, in the end I'd just wing it using existing examples (World Builder - I have the Grand Census book and that vacc suit is there and all my Scouts have a tailored vacc suit of course). And Mongoose also has some detailed in a few places: I have the ship deck plans I backed on KS and they have Naval vacc suits detailed a bit if I recall. See https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/products/element-class-cruisers-shipbuilders-blueprints)

edit: corrected link

True, and in the end Traveller tech is there to satisfy story requirements, in furtherance of the game. Too much digging into the tech will create a level of crunch that most people won't find satisfying.

 

[mike wightman]

The MegaTraveller broad categories make lot more sense than the TL scale than Traveller applies in most of its iterations.

Era	TL range	Examples
Pre-Industrial	0 to 3*	From the stone age to just prior to internal-combustion engines.* *
Industrlal	4 to 5	Internal combustion engines, mass production, nuclear power, and miniaturised electronics.
Pre-Stellar	6 to 8	Personal supercomputers, interplanetary travel, and early antigravity.
Early Stellar	9 to 10	Fusion power, interstellar jump drive, and antigrav vehicles.
Avg Stellar	11 to 13	Sophisticated robots, large jump-capable starships, holocrystal data storage, personal antigrav belts, and extensive terraforming.
HI Stellar	14 to 16	Man-portable fusion power plants, antigrav suspended cities, huge jump capable starships, convincing pseudo-human robots, and age-retarding medicine (anagathics) commonplace.
Extreme Stellar***	17 and above

* personally I would have a tier for TL0
**the steam engine, as in the industrial version not the toys would be my dividing line
***needs a new name

 

[Badenov]

Tiny quibble, nuclear power isn't a TL 5 thing, much less TL4, historically, it's TL6. Nuclear weapons show up at the very tail end of TL5, but power comes second. That's if Earth's history is a model for this timeline.

 

[mike wightman]

I copied it across as is, I would change a few things.

 

[mike wightman]

The changed version

Era	TL range	Examples
stone age	0 to 1	early to late neolithic
Pre-Industrial	2 to 3	From the smelting of metals to just prior to steam engines.
Industrlal	4 to 6	steam engines, mass production, nuclear power, and miniaturised electronics.
Pre-Stellar	7 to 8	Personal supercomputers, interplanetary travel, and early antigravity.
Early Stellar	9 to 10	Fusion power, interstellar jump drive, and antigrav vehicles.
Avg Stellar	11 to 13	Sophisticated robots, large jump-capable starships, holocrystal data storage, personal antigrav belts, and extensive terraforming.
Hi Stellar	14 to 16	Man-portable fusion power plants, antigrav suspended cities, huge jump capable starships, convincing pseudo-human robots, and age-retarding medicine (anagathics) commonplace.
Pre-Galactic	17 to 20
Early Galactic	21 to 24
Avg Galactic	24 to 27
Hi Galactic	28 to 30
Pre-Singularity	31 to 32

 

[Condottiere]

1. Tools

2. Agriculture

3. Commerce

4. Smelting

5. Urbanization

6. Industrialization

7. Coal/oil/steam

8. Electricity/wired communications

9. Wireless communications/heavier than air aircraft

A. Fission

B. Computing

C. Fusion

D. Gravitics

E. Interstellar travel

F. Antimatter

 

[Dragoner]

TL 0: (Neolithic) No technology.
TL 1: (Classical) Roughly on a par with Bronze or Iron
age technology.
TL 2: (Medieval) Renaissance technology.
TL 3: (Pre-industrial) The advances of TL 2 are now
applied, bringing the germ of industrial revolution
and steam power.
TL 4: (Industrial) The transition to industrial
revolution is complete, bringing plastics, radio and
other such inventions.
TL 5: (Industrial) TL 5 brings widespread
electrification, telecommunications and internal
combustion.
TL 6: (Industrial) TL 6 brings the development of
fission power and more advanced computing.
TL 7: (Pre-Stellar) A pre-stellar society can reach
orbit reliably and has telecommunications satellites.
TL 8: (Pre-Stellar) At TL 8, it is possible to reach
other worlds in the same system, although
terraforming or the full founding of new
communities are not within the culture’s capacity.
TL 9: (Early Stellar) The defining element of TL 9 is
the development of the Jump Drive, which makes
space travel vastly safer, and faster.
TL 10: (Early Stellar) With the advent of higher Jump
numbers, nearby systems are opened up.
TL 11: (Early Stellar) The first true artificial
intelligence becomes possible, as computers are
able to model synaptic networks.
TL 12: (Average Stellar) Weather control
revolutionises terraforming and agriculture.
TL 13: (Average Stellar) The battle dress appears on
the battlefield in response to the new weapons.
TL 14: (Average Stellar) Fusion weapons become
shoulder fired
TL 15: (High Stellar) The development of synthetic
anagathics means that the human lifespan is now
vastly increased.

Kosmic Chapter 4 Equipment Download