• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

task systems and skills in ct v later versions

personally i don't like them . i.m.h.o. as soon as they were introduced , things started getting too complicated . it's simple enough for the ref to apply a dm with respect to the difficulty of the task .
also , i thought the range of skills in ct ( books 1-8 ) was just about right . if there are too many skills they tend to get too specific and it all gets a bit mechanical . its more interesting if the players have to figure out how to use their ( slightly broader ) skills creatively .

what does anyone think ?
any chance of t5 without a task system?
would this be a good thing ?
 
personally i don't like them . i.m.h.o. as soon as they were introduced , things started getting too complicated . it's simple enough for the ref to apply a dm with respect to the difficulty of the task .
also , i thought the range of skills in ct ( books 1-8 ) was just about right . if there are too many skills they tend to get too specific and it all gets a bit mechanical . its more interesting if the players have to figure out how to use their ( slightly broader ) skills creatively .

what does anyone think ?
any chance of t5 without a task system?
would this be a good thing ?
 
Yes and no?

First, it looks like the task system is here to stay; more to the point, an enhanced version of the T4 task system looks like what's going to be in T5. I've heard valid arguments against it and for it, but you're the first guy I know who's thought tasks are needlessly complex. Perhaps the common opinion is that the complexity offsets the benefit of a consistent, clean presentation?

Next, there are a lot of folks here who agree with you about skills; namely, that fewer, broader skills are more interesting and playable than a megalist of narrow skills. We even went so far as to propose some potential lists of around 60 skills on Traveller5.com, but it looks as though the official playtest list is an improved and enhanced version of the MegaTraveller or T4 list.

More specifically, he lists 145 skills, some specific, and some general. And he declared that they are "open season": he asked for suggestions and opinions. I suppose this forum and Traveller5.com would both be good places to voice your concerns.
 
Yes and no?

First, it looks like the task system is here to stay; more to the point, an enhanced version of the T4 task system looks like what's going to be in T5. I've heard valid arguments against it and for it, but you're the first guy I know who's thought tasks are needlessly complex. Perhaps the common opinion is that the complexity offsets the benefit of a consistent, clean presentation?

Next, there are a lot of folks here who agree with you about skills; namely, that fewer, broader skills are more interesting and playable than a megalist of narrow skills. We even went so far as to propose some potential lists of around 60 skills on Traveller5.com, but it looks as though the official playtest list is an improved and enhanced version of the MegaTraveller or T4 list.

More specifically, he lists 145 skills, some specific, and some general. And he declared that they are "open season": he asked for suggestions and opinions. I suppose this forum and Traveller5.com would both be good places to voice your concerns.
 
Disagree - the task system cuts down on arguments and allows everything to be standardised. I have used the DGP/MT system for years and don't think it is at all complicated.
 
Disagree - the task system cuts down on arguments and allows everything to be standardised. I have used the DGP/MT system for years and don't think it is at all complicated.
 
Good point -- it's likely to keep argumentative players from proposing alternate target numbers, and nails down the bonuses a character gets from his stats and skill levels.
 
Good point -- it's likely to keep argumentative players from proposing alternate target numbers, and nails down the bonuses a character gets from his stats and skill levels.
 
I have a hard time understanding how a task system can make it to complicated!

It makes it easy to determine a standard target number from a rough estimate of the action at hand.

Another very important benefit is that they make a task stand out on a printed sheet, and provides clean information in at a glance.

Presentation is very important in the RPG business of today!

A bonus feature is that it might shrink the wordage and make space for more information than the "chatty" format used in GDW's CT publications. But I'm not sure it does, it might just feel that way. :D
 
I have a hard time understanding how a task system can make it to complicated!

It makes it easy to determine a standard target number from a rough estimate of the action at hand.

Another very important benefit is that they make a task stand out on a printed sheet, and provides clean information in at a glance.

Presentation is very important in the RPG business of today!

A bonus feature is that it might shrink the wordage and make space for more information than the "chatty" format used in GDW's CT publications. But I'm not sure it does, it might just feel that way. :D
 
Originally posted by Cymew:
I have a hard time understanding how a task system can make it to complicated!

It makes it easy to determine a standard target number from a rough estimate of the action at hand.

Another very important benefit is that they make a task stand out on a printed sheet, and provides clean information in at a glance.

Presentation is very important in the RPG business of today!

A bonus feature is that it might shrink the wordage and make space for more information than the "chatty" format used in GDW's CT publications. But I'm not sure it does, it might just feel that way. :D
-------i suppose i just feel its too concrete , a bit like rping by numbers . ---i prefer to hear players tell me what they are trying to do , and then quiz them as to how they think they may apply their skills/abilities in that situation . tasks make me feel like characters are just " skill carriers" and that the action is pre-determinmed , like trying to roll a six to finish a board game . this reduces immersiveness for me , which is what i like best . the less the narrative is interupted , the better .
still , i seem to be soundly out-voted .


 
Originally posted by Cymew:
I have a hard time understanding how a task system can make it to complicated!

It makes it easy to determine a standard target number from a rough estimate of the action at hand.

Another very important benefit is that they make a task stand out on a printed sheet, and provides clean information in at a glance.

Presentation is very important in the RPG business of today!

A bonus feature is that it might shrink the wordage and make space for more information than the "chatty" format used in GDW's CT publications. But I'm not sure it does, it might just feel that way. :D
-------i suppose i just feel its too concrete , a bit like rping by numbers . ---i prefer to hear players tell me what they are trying to do , and then quiz them as to how they think they may apply their skills/abilities in that situation . tasks make me feel like characters are just " skill carriers" and that the action is pre-determinmed , like trying to roll a six to finish a board game . this reduces immersiveness for me , which is what i like best . the less the narrative is interupted , the better .
still , i seem to be soundly out-voted .


 
Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
i suppose i just feel its too concrete , a bit like rping by numbers . ---i prefer to hear players tell me what they are trying to do , and then quiz them as to how they think they may apply their skills/abilities in that situation . tasks make me feel like characters are just " skill carriers" and that the action is pre-determinmed , like trying to roll a six to finish a board game . this reduces immersiveness for me , which is what i like best . the less the narrative is interupted , the better .
still , i seem to be soundly out-voted .
Okay, I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from a little better now. If the rules/adventure present a task as "Routine, skill-a, skill-b" you think that takes away some of the fun from a character who doesn't have skill-a or skill-b but has skill-c and might, in a more freeform system, have been able to justify a way in which skill-c would've helped him on the task, right?

The plus side is that this makes the game more spontaneous and encourages player creativity and role-playing. The minus is that you'll get players slowing down the game trying to justify why Forward Observer should grant him a bonus on every task.

I think we can still fit this style of play into a task-driven game, though: there's an oft-overlooked special case in the MT task system where, at the referee's discretion, Int+Edu can be used as a +DM for ANY task (after the +1 Difficulty non-skilled penalty). It seems reasonable to extrapolate from there so that at the ref's discretion any skill could benefit any task (again after the non-skilled penalty). So, in the above example, if the player pleads a good enough case to the ref, he can make the roll at "Difficult, skill-c."

The task system looks like it's set in immutable stone so that it can stay consistent across all published material, but in actual play it can be just as freeform as you want it to. There's no reason why an individual ref couldn't take it even a step further and let the players themselves define the tasks: they decide what they're attempting to do and what skills/characteristics they want to apply to it and all the referee decides is the difficulty (and duration and special task types (hazardous, uncertain, etc.) if those are being used). If the ref feels the player's choice of skills/characteristics is inappropriate, he makes the task harder/Impossible.
 
Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
i suppose i just feel its too concrete , a bit like rping by numbers . ---i prefer to hear players tell me what they are trying to do , and then quiz them as to how they think they may apply their skills/abilities in that situation . tasks make me feel like characters are just " skill carriers" and that the action is pre-determinmed , like trying to roll a six to finish a board game . this reduces immersiveness for me , which is what i like best . the less the narrative is interupted , the better .
still , i seem to be soundly out-voted .
Okay, I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from a little better now. If the rules/adventure present a task as "Routine, skill-a, skill-b" you think that takes away some of the fun from a character who doesn't have skill-a or skill-b but has skill-c and might, in a more freeform system, have been able to justify a way in which skill-c would've helped him on the task, right?

The plus side is that this makes the game more spontaneous and encourages player creativity and role-playing. The minus is that you'll get players slowing down the game trying to justify why Forward Observer should grant him a bonus on every task.

I think we can still fit this style of play into a task-driven game, though: there's an oft-overlooked special case in the MT task system where, at the referee's discretion, Int+Edu can be used as a +DM for ANY task (after the +1 Difficulty non-skilled penalty). It seems reasonable to extrapolate from there so that at the ref's discretion any skill could benefit any task (again after the non-skilled penalty). So, in the above example, if the player pleads a good enough case to the ref, he can make the roll at "Difficult, skill-c."

The task system looks like it's set in immutable stone so that it can stay consistent across all published material, but in actual play it can be just as freeform as you want it to. There's no reason why an individual ref couldn't take it even a step further and let the players themselves define the tasks: they decide what they're attempting to do and what skills/characteristics they want to apply to it and all the referee decides is the difficulty (and duration and special task types (hazardous, uncertain, etc.) if those are being used). If the ref feels the player's choice of skills/characteristics is inappropriate, he makes the task harder/Impossible.
 
Ahh, I didn't realize that's what his argument was about. My apologies.

I see in his case, a task system would bind the referee's hands. So very right.

The reason the task system is useful to me is probably because it gives me a framework to start from -- and, for many tasks, that's enough for me. But task rolls, like the rest of a rules system, are guidlines for a referee to overrule when necessary.

The place where tasks would apply well in any case is in the character generation rules: in solo play, the rules serve as a proxy for Marc Miller.
 
Ahh, I didn't realize that's what his argument was about. My apologies.

I see in his case, a task system would bind the referee's hands. So very right.

The reason the task system is useful to me is probably because it gives me a framework to start from -- and, for many tasks, that's enough for me. But task rolls, like the rest of a rules system, are guidlines for a referee to overrule when necessary.

The place where tasks would apply well in any case is in the character generation rules: in solo play, the rules serve as a proxy for Marc Miller.
 
"What Are You Doing???"

That is probably my most used question to players. It is up to them to tell me what they are doing. My play is to present them with a situation and then it is up to them to solve it. After describing what they are doing or attempting I will assign a modifier to the task depending on their ingenuity or lack of if.

The Task System should be treated as a guideline not written in stone. It simply makes running the mechanics easier. The real challenge comes from being a good referee instead a reader and dice thrower.

LIW
 
"What Are You Doing???"

That is probably my most used question to players. It is up to them to tell me what they are doing. My play is to present them with a situation and then it is up to them to solve it. After describing what they are doing or attempting I will assign a modifier to the task depending on their ingenuity or lack of if.

The Task System should be treated as a guideline not written in stone. It simply makes running the mechanics easier. The real challenge comes from being a good referee instead a reader and dice thrower.

LIW
 
Hirch Duckfinder,

Now I see your point. Well, as Foster says, in MT you can use Int+Edu as a standard DM and it works beautifully.

But, sure, your way has its charm. It only feels so "fuzzy" that I'd have a hard time not giving in very often to insistent players. If I have a task system with set target numbers I have something to point at.

I think I need such a system as the one mentioned below. Maybe not everyone does.
 
Hirch Duckfinder,

Now I see your point. Well, as Foster says, in MT you can use Int+Edu as a standard DM and it works beautifully.

But, sure, your way has its charm. It only feels so "fuzzy" that I'd have a hard time not giving in very often to insistent players. If I have a task system with set target numbers I have something to point at.

I think I need such a system as the one mentioned below. Maybe not everyone does.
 
Back
Top