T5SS Update: X Starports

[whulorigan]

It was that there is only one thing (starships) you can't get at any class B starport, and if you can get it, the starport qualifies for a starport A rating.

This is why I like the MgT definition of a Class-B port: Can build spacecraft (including starships) of up to 5000 dton. Or in light of this discussion, perhaps it would be better worded: Spacecraft (including starships) no larger than 5000 dtons.

It is a pity that T5 did not adopt this definition as well.

 

[whulorigan]

IMTU, I'd tweak Aramis' post very slightly to reframe X as:

X means no guaranteed facilities at all.

That allows X to have a consistent interpretation for your intrepid adventurers - you can't count even on a place to set down the ship - but have many interpretations:

* Unsurveyed - completely unknown. Could be a TL-J world that'll refurb your quaint ship just for nostalgia, or could be a toxic hellhole that will dissolve bonded superdense.
* Unpublished - for whatever reason, the IISS and/or TAS don't have data, or don't want to share it. Shades of...
* Uncertain - the class B on a Balkanized world fell into the hands of a fascist regime who have closed it out. That news made it out, but the fact that there are many class C starports available in system wasn't.
* Unavailable - a perfectly serviceable port was shuttered to civilian traffic by the Navy, Scouts, etc
* Actually absent - not even a marked slab of rock. Maybe it's a waterworld with no platforms, of a desert world with only sand dunes and ice caps.

While Forbidden + Red Zone does convey the meaning of some of those, X captures the important data at the start of the UWP - Travellers can not assume any services are available.

That's probably the best rationale I have heard to date.

 

[rancke]

Along the same lines, isn't the difference between an X and E port just one thing ... a marked landing pad (even if it is just a slab of exposed bedrock)?

Until recently I would have agreed with you, but Wil pointed out a very important difference: with a class E starport there's the possibility of passengers, freight, and cargo.

With respect to Forine, I could imagine a large port dominated by bulk freighters that might not need to offer repair facilities ... a Class D port?
Sort of like the large cargo ports that lack cruise ship facilities.

So can I, but I can't imagine that there wouldn't be passenger traffic too, and the facilities to service it.

I am too unfamiliar with the other details to know whether Forine should have a large passenger facility as well and warrant upgrading to Class C (risk to human lives seems like a good justification for needing to be able to make proper repairs.)

Foring has a TL of 10 and a population of 6 billion. Do you need any other details? There'll be people traveling back and forth to Collace and Glisten all the time.


Hans

 

[KDLadage]

Perhaps you didn't realize what my argument was. It was that there is only one thing (starships) you can't get at any class B starport, and if you can get it, the starport qualifies for a starport A rating.

I get it... (I think). I just think that we (and by we, I mean Marc Miller) needs to decide if a Starport rating is the maximum of what can be available, or the minimum of what is available.




IMVHO, YMMV, yada yada yada...

 

[Selandia]

The case of Forine:coffeesip:

in T5,
P.306 establish no links between starport rating and passengers facilities (called passenger terminal at p 307).

There is no DM for psg demand based on starport rating at p.490. Demand dm are population and skill based.

Therefore, no fancy explanation is needed for passengers demand in relation to starport when matching the econimic narative to the UWP. For the cargo, "Galactic Ore Co." just own its loading facilities, a fuel refiner and a workshop to repair its ore shuttle. More than merely possible by the rules, this set-up makes a lot of business sense and is even expected.

Of course, other rule systems do make extensive use of starport rating, but there must be something right in T5 after all, once in a while

The unrefined fuel issue is weird, the ship's Chandler should be more than willing to supply refined fuel. It is like the demand is insufficient to justify the purchase of fuel refining Equipment. This however is not Forine specific, it is structural in the starport classification and would therefore answer to TI wide macro-economic considerations. So be it, I tend to fit all my ship designs with scoop and purifier to answer the problem to travellers....then if we all do this, who need refined fuel?

have fun

Selandia

 

[atpollard]

Until recently I would have agreed with you, but Wil pointed out a very important difference: with a class E starport there's the possibility of passengers, freight, and cargo.

Hans

Isn't marking the bedrock landing pad the 'facilities' response to expecting that a ship will land there to load/unload Passengers, freight and cargo?
(making it class E).
Landing in the middle of the Bonneville Salt Flats on a TL 1 world with no expectation of Starships or Trade is the equivalent of a Class X starport.

IMTU, I would expect to find a shed like a small railroad depot at the Class E port ... run by a man who sells tickets and stores freight when he is not running the General Store.
Landing on a world with a class X starport, I would expect to need to load up the air raft and try to find a town on my own if I wanted to buy or sell cargo or take on passengers.


[Forine ... I have no comment on*]
*"If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all" - Grandma Edna

 

[Selandia]

I think the Starport rating, if read as a maximum clears up a lot of potential confusion and allows some flexibility within the setting.

Keeping it on Forine

yes, and therefore, given the table on p.306, Forine could provide refined fuel, major repairs, sustain the need of a lot of traffic, but not been rated C because it would need a highport to do so (C= highport on pop 9+ world, and Forine is 9) and ref could justify the D by claim that HP is not present.

That would allow ship to find at least unrefined but most likely refined fuel. on any D+ straport. If you cant provide at least unrefined then you are "obviously" E.

Still How could a port acheive even C status w/o refined fuel? That stills bug me.

have fun

Selandia

 

[KDLadage]

Side Note: if the only difference between Starport A and Starport B is that the former has the ability to build you a ship... then this seems like something that would be better handled with a code somewhere to indicate the presence of a "Shipyard" and render that as something completely separate.

However... given the decades of history and the momentum behind that history, this seems highly unlikely (read: not gonna happen).

 

[rancke]

Side Note: if the only difference between Starport A and Starport B is that the former has the ability to build you a ship... then this seems like something that would be better handled with a code somewhere to indicate the presence of a "Shipyard" and render that as something completely separate.

I have proposed that class A be redefined to indicate the presence of (civilians) yards. Whether they're able to build ships or just boats would be indicated by tech level. Class B would have repair and annual maintenance, but not construction.

However... given the decades of history and the momentum behind that history, this seems highly unlikely (read: not gonna happen).

Sadly, I suspect you're right.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Along the same lines, isn't the difference between an X and E port just one thing ... a marked landing pad (even if it is just a slab of exposed bedrock)?
I viewed that as the difference between landing a 1920 biplane on a dirt landing strip or a farmer's field ... one is expecting someone to land from time to time, the other is not.

Not just the landing pad, but also people to do business with at the landing field.

This is evidenced by Type X having a DM-4 on TL, while Type E does not. (D & E both have no TL mod).
Likewise, a Typical Type E has hangars - according to the picture on p. 311. Not much else...

The differences between E&D:

• D can have a scout base; E cannot
• D has brokers, E does not
• D has definitely has unrefined fuel; E may or may not.

 

[simonh]

So can I, but I can't imagine that there wouldn't be passenger traffic too, and the facilities to service it.

It's a dictatorship, if the government decides it doesn't want people having unregulated contact with outside worlds and decides not to build passenger terminals to facilitate that, then that's what they will do. Think Russia or China during the cold war. They still traded in essential commodities with the outside world through government locked-down ports, but public access to international travel was severely restricted and discouraged. Maybe it's still possible with the right permits, but the port facilities for non-government or non-corporate trade and transit are extremely basic. There are many historical examples of this sort of setup. Just look at North Korea right now. The government controlled airports and sea ports are ok, but much low-level trade and travel goes on dirt tracks through benighted military checkpoints into china fueled by gas sold out of jerry cans.

Foring has a TL of 10 and a population of 6 billion. Do you need any other details? There'll be people traveling back and forth to Collace and Glisten all the time.

Only if they have permits, and only through badly maintained facilities intentionally meant to disuade such travel.

None of this requires any extraordinary feats of extreme conjecture, just look at the world around you, and recent history, for directly applicable examples.

Someone else mentioned unrefined fuel. Who says the government doesn't want people just turning up at Forine and conducting unregulated trade? Maybe they grudgingly allow it due to some wrinkle of local customs or law, or due to a treaty they signed that they very much regret, but that deosn't mean they have to like or facilitate it. Think Libya under Gaddafi. The oil industry had special facilities and dispensation to bring people in and out, but apart from that all outside contact was heavilly restricted. In much of the world, until recently, this sort of setup was actually the norm.

Simon Hibbs

 

[rancke]

It's a dictatorship, if the government dcides it doesn't want people having contact with outside worlds and decides not to build passenger terminals to facilitate that, then that's what they will do.

But that makes the starport class X, not class D. Class D means that they'll sell you unrefined fuel and allow people to take passage with you, send freght with you, and let you buy speculative cargo. But no matter how many juicy Imperial credits you wave, they won't sell you refined fuel, repair your ship or perform annual maintenance on it.


Hans

 

[simonh]

But that makes the starport class X, not class D. Class D means that they'll sell you unrefined fuel and allow people to take passage with you, send freght with you, and let you buy speculative cargo. But no matter how many juicy Imperial credits you wave, they won't sell you refined fuel, repair your ship or perform annual maintenance on it.

Sure. Like I said, they signed some open trade agreement treaty in return for some Imperial concessions, but that doesn't mean they have to like it, or go out of their way to make it work well. Maybe the starport is some kind of 'special economic zone', like Kaesong in North Korea or one of the native kingdoms inside South Africa during Apartheid, with slightly different legal jurisdiction than the rest of the planet.

In the 19th century, Madagascar would only allow trade or any other contact with white people at one rickety old port, but occasionaly traded with black africans more freely. Japan heavily restricted all trade and contact with the outside world and channeled it through specific ports, granting very narrow trading rights on a case by case basis, until Admiral Perry showed up and forced them to allow freer trade.

Alternatively, maybe their inability to sell you refined fuel isn't voluntary. It used to be common practice for trading nations (*cough* Britain *cough*) to sign exclusive monopoly deals with other nations on pain of gunboat retribution. For example Portugal had exclusive rights at Macao, while Britain had Hong Kong. Anyone else might be abe to try their luck at a fishing village, if the local magistrate was amenable. Perhaps the trading corporations responsible for all that locked-down exclusive trade put a clause in their contract that only they are allowed to buy refined fuel, to spike potential competitors. Maybe they are actualy the only ones even allowed to refine fuel. Britain used to sign exclusive deals with ports and principalities, e.g. to provide it's ships with bunker oil.

Simon Hibbs

 

[atpollard]

But that makes the starport class X, not class D. Class D means that they'll sell you unrefined fuel and allow people to take passage with you, send freght with you, and let you buy speculative cargo. But no matter how many juicy Imperial credits you wave, they won't sell you refined fuel, repair your ship or perform annual maintenance on it.

Hans

I thought that the corporate explanation worked fairly well ...

"Giant Mining Conglomerate" owns all of the mines and exports all of the resources 'throughout the sub-sector' (or whatever the book said).
It also owns the giant bulk freighters and maintains them at its own private facilities.
These privately maintained bulk freighters represent perhaps 80% of all planetary starship traffic.
The remaining 20% of the traffic supports a VERY impressive Class D Starport, owned and operated by the Imperial SPA ... but it does not justify the Imperial repair facilities of a Class C starport.

They may even have all of the other amenities of a Class C starport except the commercial repair facilities and fall just short of qualifying for Class C.

It is not a great story, but it fits with the Mining back-story of the world and it at least seems plausible.

There is a large Planetary Government Class A shipyard restricted to the Planetary Navy.
There is a large private Class C shipyard operated by a corporation for its own fleet.
The rest of the market will not support a third shipyard ... especially if the other end of those Passenger Liner routes is a Class B or Class A starport ... so the SPA Starport is Class D.

 

[simonh]

They may even have all of the other amenities of a Class C starport except the commercial repair facilities and fall just short of qualifying for Class C.

There is plenty of scope for starports that don't quite match any of the published classifications. On the debate of whether the listed facilitis for a starport are a maximum or a minimum, I fall in the minimum camp.

If I'm running a free trader campaign and the PCs turn up at a world, I expect the starport code to tell me what facilities the PCs can reasonably rely on being in place to support their activities. Anything above that is a bonus. If the features listed in the code are a maximum, then the code is next to useless because it means I can't reasonably rely on any of that being available.

Even within the monopolistic corporatin explanation, there are many possible alternate nuances. Is the corporation local and state controlled, or is it an offworld outfit? Maybe it's a trade alliance and you can actualy join for an annual fee (or some other obligation) and get access to their privateClass B port facilities? Does the world government actually want to provide bettter services to free traders, or are they prevented by contractual obligations forced on them by the corp? Or is it the government trying to limit offworld, contact, but Imperial treaties prevent them from closing it off completely?

Simon Hibbs

 

[Selandia]

Someone else mentioned unrefined fuel. Who says the government doesn't want people just turning up at Forine and conducting unregulated trade? Maybe they grudgingly allow it due to some wrinkle of local customs or law, or due to a treaty they signed that they very much regret, but that deosn't mean they have to like or facilitate it. Think Libya under Gaddafi. The oil industry had special facilities and dispensation to bring people in and out, but apart from that all outside contact was heavilly restricted. In much of the world, until recently, this sort of setup was actually the norm.

Simon Hibbs

Since I mentioned unrefined fuel, I'll pick up the point. From a gaming perspective, I agree with your argument that it could be justified. Idi Amin Dada, various crack pot, obscurantist or diabolicaly logical tyran, applying his mind to specific situations could turn out weird/tragic isolationist solutions to his problem, thus creating interesting gaming challenge.

From a rule perspective, how could you w/o a gaming explaination, allows a staport that does not provide refined fuel to be rated C flabergast me. C rating is broken for it always require an extraordinary explanation...short of relying on an unstated macro -economic factor.

I have no problem with explanations downrating to D or E a starport that should intuitively be B or C or even A. Elevating to C rate a starport that does not supply refined fuel ? See p.306, Refined fuel should be a breaking point between C and D not between C and B:rant:

By the way, unrefined fuel is the lamest way to restrict travel, it never prevented the PowSup to work, simply increased the risk of missjump. Many if not most ships (and certainly the regular on this run ) would have fuel purif plant anyway for operating cost and flexibility purpose. The really bad boys: Intruders, would have jump-out fuel anyway. Lord Kig Ilang Sad want his domain ignorant of the outside world and restrict travel? Fine with me, I just wonder why he would allow a Highport, major damage repairs, refuelling in 4D hrs (not 4D Days, 4D Hours) -that is the minimum requirement for C rate but no refined fuel?

have fun

Selandia

 

[mike wightman]

Any merchant line that want to risk its multi-million Cr. ships for the few hundred thousand credits it would cost to build a fuel refinery at every port they visit deserves to go bust IMHO.

It's another absolutely stupid feature of a thousand year old Imperium that doesn't have refined fuel available on every world visited regularly by merchantmen.

 

[atpollard]

In CT, if both Unrefined and Refined fuel were available, then it was way cheaper for a ship to install a purifier and buy unrefined fuel.

Has T5 changed that?

 

[Ulsyus]

By the way, unrefined fuel is the lamest way to restrict travel, it never prevented the PowSup to work, simply increased the risk of missjump. Many if not most ships (and certainly the regular on this run ) would have fuel purif plant anyway for operating cost and flexibility purpose. Selandia

Absolutely. It would take a TL9-11 tramp freighter with a dodgy service history to be most at risk in that instance.

In CT, if both Unrefined and Refined fuel were available, then it was way cheaper for a ship to install a purifier and buy unrefined fuel.
Has T5 changed that?

The B³ p.339 down the bottom lists Raw Fuel (gas) skimmed as free and bought at any ABCD starport as Cr100/ton. Refined Fuel (Gas) is down for Cr500/ton. A Fuel Purifier costs MCr1/ton and can handle 4tons/hour.

So it takes 2500 tons of purchased raw fuel or 2000 tons of skimmed/scooped fuel to cover the cost of the purifier. We don't have much on the maintenance cost of the purifier, or how long they'll last in terms of tons processed. So ultimately it is a matter of them paying for themselves, but cost-conscious builders my opt out of it to if trying to stick to a budget and allow the ship owners to pay for their fuel themselves.

 

[simonh]

From a rule perspective, how could you w/o a gaming explaination, allows a staport that does not provide refined fuel to be rated C flabergast me. C rating is broken for it always require an extraordinary explanation...short of relying on an unstated macro -economic factor.

Can't argue with that. It's never made much sense.

I mean I can retcon an answer if you like. Maybe each ship actually requires a highly specific fuel mixture tailored to it's power plant and drive characteristics. Most starports don't have the equipment required to enrich the fuel mixture to precisely align to the requirements of every possible drive configuration, but if your ship has it's own purifiers they are assumed to be tuned to your ship's requirements.

But that all just BS.

Simon Hibbs