From the way it's worded, I would assume that V1 here refers to the idea that when an NPC takes 10 points of damage in a round, he's out of combat, and when he doesn't, he's not. That would make V2 something else, unlike both V1 and V0, which I saw as an optional thing for people who like it. However with V2 apparently AWOL, people have been relying on V0. That's my take on things at the moment anyway.
T5 Question - Wound Severity?
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Supplement Four
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I see.
There are two hit systems in T5.
The easy one is the one used for NPCs. If damage is 10+, then take the character out. If damage is 9-, he is unaffected.
The other system is the one I cite above that uses CT style damage, but adds would severity for medical attention tasks.
T5 has confused this simple issue with labeling. V0 - V1 - V2 probably needs to be entered into eratta for clarity.
Based on on Rob Eaglestone told me (cited, along with Don, as co-author of T5), what I say here is correct.
If an NPC is hit, use the simple system as noted in the third line above.
If a PC is hit, then use this system...
T5 Wounds and Healing
When a character takes damage, he applies it to his three physical stats exactly the way it was done with Classic Traveller. This is on page 215.
If you look on the page that describes the Penetrate phase of the combat round (page 220), you'll see in the chart that Bullet damage must defeat armor, and if it does, the remaining hits are applied to C1, C2, and C3.
How the hits are applied to those three stats is described in the V0 Hit System on page 215.
So, Minor Wounds (any damage less than two stats at zero) can be healed by medical attention (by seeing a character with Medic-1 or better skill), of course, but it's not necessary. Three days of rest will completely heal him. (From page 215.)
Two stats at zero indicates a Serious Wound, and note the last paragraph that says these types of wounds can only be fully healed after seeing a doctor (Medic-3 or better).
If a character wants to quickly heal Minor Wounds or fully heal Serious Wounds, we turn to the Medic skill on page 165. There, Hit Location and Injury Severity (both from page 220) are used in the tasks for Diagnosis and Treatment.
There are two hit systems in T5.
The easy one is the one used for NPCs. If damage is 10+, then take the character out. If damage is 9-, he is unaffected.
The other system is the one I cite above that uses CT style damage, but adds would severity for medical attention tasks.
T5 has confused this simple issue with labeling. V0 - V1 - V2 probably needs to be entered into eratta for clarity.
Based on on Rob Eaglestone told me (cited, along with Don, as co-author of T5), what I say here is correct.
If an NPC is hit, use the simple system as noted in the third line above.
If a PC is hit, then use this system...
T5 Wounds and Healing
When a character takes damage, he applies it to his three physical stats exactly the way it was done with Classic Traveller. This is on page 215.
If you look on the page that describes the Penetrate phase of the combat round (page 220), you'll see in the chart that Bullet damage must defeat armor, and if it does, the remaining hits are applied to C1, C2, and C3.
How the hits are applied to those three stats is described in the V0 Hit System on page 215.
So, Minor Wounds (any damage less than two stats at zero) can be healed by medical attention (by seeing a character with Medic-1 or better skill), of course, but it's not necessary. Three days of rest will completely heal him. (From page 215.)
Two stats at zero indicates a Serious Wound, and note the last paragraph that says these types of wounds can only be fully healed after seeing a doctor (Medic-3 or better).
If a character wants to quickly heal Minor Wounds or fully heal Serious Wounds, we turn to the Medic skill on page 165. There, Hit Location and Injury Severity (both from page 220) are used in the tasks for Diagnosis and Treatment.
Can you give an example of combat using the following scenario:
John Popandopolis a player character is walking out of a local downport latrine. As he steps through the door he notices some one screaming Aslan proverbs to his right. He turns to find a grisley scene. A naked crazed human with a katana is standing over 2 dead human children and a severly wounded human female. He is poised both hands holding the katana with the blade pointed downward ready to stab the woman who John notices, is trying to protect a crying child in her arms from the crazed mans brutal attack. John is standing behind the man at range band 1 and already instinctively has his Re-4 drawn. His revolver does Bullet-1 damage. John is wearing civillian cloths with no armor value. The crazed NPC is armed with S-2 sword that does Cuts-2 damage. He is also buck naked, no armor.
John has the initiative.
Johns stats: 8A7785 Skills: Slug Thrower - 6, Fighting-2
Crazed NPC: 989577 Skills: Blades-5, Fighting-1
John Popandopolis a player character is walking out of a local downport latrine. As he steps through the door he notices some one screaming Aslan proverbs to his right. He turns to find a grisley scene. A naked crazed human with a katana is standing over 2 dead human children and a severly wounded human female. He is poised both hands holding the katana with the blade pointed downward ready to stab the woman who John notices, is trying to protect a crying child in her arms from the crazed mans brutal attack. John is standing behind the man at range band 1 and already instinctively has his Re-4 drawn. His revolver does Bullet-1 damage. John is wearing civillian cloths with no armor value. The crazed NPC is armed with S-2 sword that does Cuts-2 damage. He is also buck naked, no armor.
John has the initiative.
Johns stats: 8A7785 Skills: Slug Thrower - 6, Fighting-2
Crazed NPC: 989577 Skills: Blades-5, Fighting-1
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Supplement Four
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That's a hell of a visual and horrifying scene, RobM. You got my attention. Props. I'd be in your game any day. You Ref the way I do.
Does anybody have a problem with the revolver doing Bullet-1 Damage and the Sword ding Cuts-2 damage?
Even using the First Blood rule, it's unlikely that the revolver will even down the target.
If you're using STAMP, though, the sword bearing won't either, because he must attack before he moves, and he's too far away. So, he's got to spend a round moving to Johns (and I guess, on his Movement phase, Johns could also move, keeping range with the swordsman).
But, if that Crazed NPC ever gets on Johns, it's likely that one attack will down Johns, where as it's going to take several rounds, most likely to down the Crazed NPC with the revolver.
Even if Johns rolls max damage on the first shot, and it lands randomly on DEX, and then Johns rolls all hits and all max damage for every other round, it will take rounds to down the Crazed NPC with the revovler.
Round 1: Crazed NPC's DEX drops to 2
Round 2: Crazed NPC stats 923
Round 3: Crazed NPC stats 323
Round 4: Crazed NPC finally downed.
The best case scenario is that the Crazed NPC is dropped by the revolver in 4 rounds!
Hmm....not sure I'm happy with that damage system.
I've been a lurker on the list for a while, but I thought I would add my .02Cr.
It seems to me that Licheking's idea would work reasonably well to ameliorate this problem (if I am understanding him correctly). Since it is only based on wounds actually received after armor reduction (not total damage applied), it would not affect the game mechanic for armor/damage penetration. The actual points of injury received would then be based on a number of dice equal to the Severity of the Wound.
In RobM's example, the Bullet-1 against no armor in this case would do 1D of Injury, whose Severity would range between 1-3, since Bullet is defined as Total Hits / 2 = Severity. This would then translate to 1D to 3D points of actual injury points applied to C1, C2, & C3.
The Katana is Slash-2 (=2D), but Wound Severity for Slash is Cuts/3, which would make the actual damage range 1D to 4D in terms of actual injury points applied to C1, C2, & C3.
Thus, in each case you can get anywhere from a grazing shot/blow (1D) thru a puncture of a major organ (3D or 4D, respectively). This then becomes somewhat of a moderating position between the "dice of damage" vs. "dice of dice of damage". (Note also that the slash wound would continue to bleed out at 1-4 points (=severity) per round until treated). Further, it relates the damage directly to already established mechanics for the severity of wounds in general.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Any problems that would have to be worked out? (I haven't thought this through in depth).
It seems to me that Licheking's idea would work reasonably well to ameliorate this problem (if I am understanding him correctly). Since it is only based on wounds actually received after armor reduction (not total damage applied), it would not affect the game mechanic for armor/damage penetration. The actual points of injury received would then be based on a number of dice equal to the Severity of the Wound.
In RobM's example, the Bullet-1 against no armor in this case would do 1D of Injury, whose Severity would range between 1-3, since Bullet is defined as Total Hits / 2 = Severity. This would then translate to 1D to 3D points of actual injury points applied to C1, C2, & C3.
The Katana is Slash-2 (=2D), but Wound Severity for Slash is Cuts/3, which would make the actual damage range 1D to 4D in terms of actual injury points applied to C1, C2, & C3.
Thus, in each case you can get anywhere from a grazing shot/blow (1D) thru a puncture of a major organ (3D or 4D, respectively). This then becomes somewhat of a moderating position between the "dice of damage" vs. "dice of dice of damage". (Note also that the slash wound would continue to bleed out at 1-4 points (=severity) per round until treated). Further, it relates the damage directly to already established mechanics for the severity of wounds in general.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Any problems that would have to be worked out? (I haven't thought this through in depth).
Supplement Four
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Someone set me straight if I'm wrong about this, but I don't think the above is correct at all. I made the text bold.
Bullet-1 does 1D of Injury, yes. Roll 1D, and take that damage from C1, C2, or C3 as a whole die. If this is the first time the target has been hit, then damage to C1, C2, or C3 is rolled randomly.
Severity isn't used until a character with Medic skill attempts to heal the hurt character.
Like this...
Crazy NPC is shot by Johns' revolver, doing Bullet-1 damage. Roll 1D damage, and it's a 6. Randomly, we take off 6 points from the Crazy NPC's DEX, giving him physicals 929.
Now, let's say the police drop a net on the Crazy NPC and take him into custody.
If no one treats the wound, it will heal, automatically, in three days. Crazy NPC will be back up to 989 on his physicals.
But, the police let a doc see him.
Step 1: Hit Location.
Roll on page 222, on the Hit Location table, to see where the character is wounded. We roll a 7, which tells us that the character was injured in the torso (if we roll an 11 or 12 on this table, then Severity automatically equals 1, which is a graze).
Step 2: Severity.
If the wound isn't automatically a graze as noted in Step 1, then we divide damage by 2 to get the severity. 6 / 2 = 3.
Severity = 3.
Step 3: Diagnosis.
A medic cannot treat a wound, except to stabilize a patient (stop the bleeding, pain relief), until a diagnosis is made.
A medic will roll the diagnosis task. Note that I am unsure where the difficulty for the Diagnosis task is found. In one example provided in the book, the diagnosis task difficulty is 1D random (1D to 6D difficulty). It may be different for a gunshot wound.
Success on the diagnosis task tells the medic the severity of the wound. Failure means the Ref gives the medic an incorrect severity.
Step 4: Treatment.
Severity = Difficulty for the Treatment task. In the case of this Crazy NPC, the Severity is 3D, so it will be a 3D treatment task.
To repair an injured anatomic location
Severity (nD) < DEX + Medic
Uncertain (1D)
Step 5: Healing.
A successful Treatment task sets the character along the path of healing. The character will be fully healed in Severity squared days.
For the Crazy NPC, this will be 9 days, but we already know that the can heal completely in 3 days naturally, so that's how long it will take him.
If his Severity had been 1, then healing time could have been shortened to 1 day.
No. Read up on the Medical skill, page 165. Severity is only used to guide those tasks (Treatment difficulty, healing time, etc).
Note that Cut damage is nasty because it does indicated damage per turn, not just once, like Bullet damage.
And, I think that's wonky. Bullets can tear a person up just like cuts. You can bleed to death from both types of wounds.
I'm thinking that whulorigan and lichking explanation makes sense and that
injury is assessed per page 222 if damage penetrates armor along with the P phase right after penetration is assessed. Also its supposed to be used along with the master mods wound table 11 per errata. So in this case if John shot the crazed naked guy in the back, hit him and rolled a 6 for damage, divided by 2 for injury would give him a pretty good severity 3 common wound of 3d6 damage to be applied to a random c1,c2 or c3 stat right off the bat, or using V1 take him out of action if the amount of damage on 3D6 is greater than 10.
I would house rule that a hit to the brain (aka head for humans) would cause a severity x2 injury and would ad that to one of the torso shots as well on the hit location table. But that probably doesn't belong in this thread, and I would likely use that for only NPC's.... maybee.
injury is assessed per page 222 if damage penetrates armor along with the P phase right after penetration is assessed. Also its supposed to be used along with the master mods wound table 11 per errata. So in this case if John shot the crazed naked guy in the back, hit him and rolled a 6 for damage, divided by 2 for injury would give him a pretty good severity 3 common wound of 3d6 damage to be applied to a random c1,c2 or c3 stat right off the bat, or using V1 take him out of action if the amount of damage on 3D6 is greater than 10.
I would house rule that a hit to the brain (aka head for humans) would cause a severity x2 injury and would ad that to one of the torso shots as well on the hit location table. But that probably doesn't belong in this thread, and I would likely use that for only NPC's.... maybee.
The medical skill really doesn't tell you what happens if you fail and the patients condition worsens, except that treating the patient becomes harder. Common sense tells us that the patient would eventually die. If you associate the medic skill with wound severity on table 11 of the master mods it gives you a concrete effect of a patients condition when it increases in severity. Example if crazed sword guy is laid out by John's single shot and a medic tries to treat his sev3 wound but fails it increases to a sev4 wound and looking at wounds on master mod table 11 does 4D6 more damage to him to be divided among c1-c3. Eventially if the medic keeps messing up the guy will have all 3 stats reduced to 0 and die. And I agree bullet damage should cause bleeding as well.
Supplement Four
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Yep. The Medical rules are meant for Serious wounds--where two stats go to zero.
You really don't need the Medical rules for Minor wounds as your character fully heals in 3 days naturally.
If you fail a Medical task, the treatment becomes harder. And, you can only try Treatment once per day--so the wounded character stays wounded longer.
Note page 165: "The Referee determins three elements (through a process of logic, or through consultation of the Malfunctions Table).
Location details the anatomical or the biological location of the illness or injury. Injuries are anatomical; illnesses are biological.
Severity details how sries the illness is, and how difficult the treatment task is.
Diagnosis details how difficult the task of defining the illness is."
So, that, right there, tells you what Severity is used for. And, you can see Severity used in the tasks on page 165.
1. You use the Pallative Treatment task to stabilize characters (those that are suffering from cuts continue to take damage, for example. This task will stop that.)
2. You use the Diagnosis Task to find out the Severity of the Injury.
3. You use the Treatment Task (and Severity gives you your difficulty) to find out how long it takes the character to completely heal.
Supplement Four
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BTW, if you go by what you are saying, then T5 will be one of the most deadly games ever created for RPGs.
With what you are advocating, what kind of character can withstand Bullet-4 damage?
You are reading Mod Table 11 incorrectly. All that's showing you is that, if, as the Ref, you think a character should suffer Heavy damage from something, then apply 4D damage to him.
Look at the example on page 233. In that example, the Ref determines that two characters and a vehicle will take damage from falling lava ash. How much damage is determined by the Bad Flux roll, then consulting the BTSD table.
Eneri, in the example, gets a Bad Flux roll of -1. Looking on the BTSD table from the same page, we see that a -1 correspeonds with a Slight wound. Therefore, looking at Table 11, Eneri takes 1D of damage.
Aia, in the example, ends up with a modified Bad Flux roll of -2. That corresponds to Light Damage on the BTSD table. And, Table 11 tells us that Light damage is 2D damage.
The ATV in the example gets a Bad Flux number of 0. Looking on the BTSD table, that corresponds to a Scratch. Looking on Table 11, a Scratch means 1 point of damage.
That's how Table 11 is used.
Supplement Four
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@RobM
Rob, don't forget the effects of the attack type. Weapons fired with bursts or fully automatically add +2D to damage AFTER penetration is calculated.
SnapFire does +1D damage (and require burst or full auto).
It's the damage of single shot revolvers that I was questioning. The ABR-9, from page 240 (a TL 9 combat rifle) does plenty of damage at Bullet-5, plus 2D more damage if it penetrates when using AutoFire.
Rob, don't forget the effects of the attack type. Weapons fired with bursts or fully automatically add +2D to damage AFTER penetration is calculated.
SnapFire does +1D damage (and require burst or full auto).
It's the damage of single shot revolvers that I was questioning. The ABR-9, from page 240 (a TL 9 combat rifle) does plenty of damage at Bullet-5, plus 2D more damage if it penetrates when using AutoFire.
You are correct in your statement above. My comment was not to suggest that this is the way the rules are supposed to be read, but rather as something to consider as a possible errata or rules change in light of your comment that Bullet-1 does far too little damage (which is a point I agree with you on).
So, if a minor rule change as I mentioned above were made, could it be a step toward fixing the problem in the rules as they are stated? Or would it have other unforseen consequesnces that would "break" the system in a different wway?
Supplement Four
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Agreed.
I've been thinking that die modifiers could be used. For example, armor piercing rounds might do damage of 1D + 3.
Or, weapons could be given a Penetration value separate from the damage. For example, Pen 3 would lower AV 3 points, then roll damage and check for penetration normally.
For example, Bullet-1 AP 3 rounds vs. AV 6 armor.
Armor Piercing: Normally, Bullet-1 cannot penetrate AV 6 armor. But, Armor Piercing Bullet-1 rounds could. Apply AP 3. That lowers armor to AV 3. Then roll 1D and penetrate on 4-6.
High Explosive: High Explosive rounds could do extra Dice of damage AFTER penetration, not unlike a hit from AutoFire.
Discarding Sabot: Sabot rounds could increase the range of the weapon--or possibly add a modifier to hit (which, basically, decreases range on a lower scale).
Supplement Four
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RE: Wounds.
For all those that question my explanation of the healing rules in T5, take a look at page 232, Battle Damage.
There, you will see a system for any type of damage in the game (not just to characters, but to vehicles and systems, too). Note that Medical is in the Useful Skills list.
If you follow the process on that page, you'll see that the Medical Rules are just as I have described them.
Each task to "fix" something is basically broken down into two tasks:
Task 1: Diagnose the problem. Use Severity as difficulty. Make this task uncertain. If successful, you know the exact severity of the problem (wound).
Task 2: Fix the problem with a replace/fix/treatment task, using Severity as your difficulty.
It's all there on page 232.
For all those that question my explanation of the healing rules in T5, take a look at page 232, Battle Damage.
There, you will see a system for any type of damage in the game (not just to characters, but to vehicles and systems, too). Note that Medical is in the Useful Skills list.
If you follow the process on that page, you'll see that the Medical Rules are just as I have described them.
Each task to "fix" something is basically broken down into two tasks:
Task 1: Diagnose the problem. Use Severity as difficulty. Make this task uncertain. If successful, you know the exact severity of the problem (wound).
Task 2: Fix the problem with a replace/fix/treatment task, using Severity as your difficulty.
It's all there on page 232.
I think your idea for various types of ammo is a good idea regardless, but the above ammo types still would not deal with the apparent low damage potential of simple generic ball-rounds for pistol against an unarmored opponent. Perhaps the fix is as simple as increasing the damage of standard pistol ball-round from 1D to 1D+3 or 2D. I do not seem to recall that any previous version of traveller had any bullet doing only 1D of damage, even from a pistol. In CT: The Traveller Book, the only weapons that do 1D of damage were hands and foil.
In MT, pistols, even the body pistol, do 3 damage, and it was applied the same way as dice to attributes. I can only assume it is supposed to be an attempt to re-integrate damage and penetration (because the BP in MT has pen 0). And this is what we get for it.
Yeah, all this is really making me miss MT combat. Separate pen and dmg, simple.
Well if thats the case then bullet damage for a revolver needs to be increased to CT levels of 3D6. Bullet-1 could be a BB gun or something.
Supplement Four
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It's a Slight wound, according to Table 11
But, I definitely agree. Pistols need to do more damage.
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