thalassogen
SOC-12
You are right. I deleted my last message there and put it here.
You are right, I'll change that in my implementation.
You are right, I'll change that in my implementation.
T5 Errata Discussion Thread
- Thread starter DonM
- Start date
thalassogen
SOC-12
I just created:
UlVhMP-9 Ultimate Vheavy Machine Pistol - 9
R=5 Cr1,575 3.70kg QREBS=5+2 0+2 0 Effects=Bullet-17
and I think this cannot be true. Despite errata saying:
Pistol D1=1, Machine D2=2, Vheavy D=5, Ultimate D=2
==>
D1=1+5+2=8, D2=2+5+2=9, H1=Bullet, H2=Bullet
==>
Bullet-8, Bullet-9
==>
??? Bullet-17 ???
Shouldn't those values be added? When to ignore H1/D1 and when to keep it? Samples seem contradicting and I cannot find an explanation. What am I doing wrong? Please point me to the text passage I am missing the whole time.
UlVhMP-9 Ultimate Vheavy Machine Pistol - 9
R=5 Cr1,575 3.70kg QREBS=5+2 0+2 0 Effects=Bullet-17
and I think this cannot be true. Despite errata saying:
Pistol D1=1, Machine D2=2, Vheavy D=5, Ultimate D=2
==>
D1=1+5+2=8, D2=2+5+2=9, H1=Bullet, H2=Bullet
==>
Bullet-8, Bullet-9
==>
??? Bullet-17 ???
Shouldn't those values be added? When to ignore H1/D1 and when to keep it? Samples seem contradicting and I cannot find an explanation. What am I doing wrong? Please point me to the text passage I am missing the whole time.
thalassogen
SOC-12
Another GunMaker question/problem:
I am trying to compare a starship turret weapon against a portable one:
FCT-14 Fusion Cannon Turret - 14
R=4 Cr60,000 460.00kg QREBS=5 0 0+4 0 Effects=Pen-4 Burn-4
Recoil=Hi Loud=Vloud Flash=Bright Heat=Hot Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=No
AltFGP-14 Alternate Fusion Gun Portable - 14
R=4 Cr33,000 22.77kg QREBS=5 0 0-1 0 Effects=Pen-6 Burn-4
Recoil=Hi Loud=Vloud Flash=Bright Heat=Hot Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=-3
I tried to keep the TL the same and therefore I had to add "Alternate" to the portable weapon as "Turret" weapons automatically get TL+1. Adding "Alternate" increases the range of the portable weapon by one, yielding the same range for both systems.
Viewing the results, I have difficulties rationalizing them... The cannon is far too cheap, should have far better range than the portable gun, and its damage should be far higher - and at least not inferior. So why don't starships just mount arrays of AltFGP instead of FCT? The AltFGPs are cheaper, lighter, and more effective.
Any ideas what I am doing wrong here? Or is GunMaker that quirky? On intent?
I am trying to compare a starship turret weapon against a portable one:
FCT-14 Fusion Cannon Turret - 14
R=4 Cr60,000 460.00kg QREBS=5 0 0+4 0 Effects=Pen-4 Burn-4
Recoil=Hi Loud=Vloud Flash=Bright Heat=Hot Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=No
AltFGP-14 Alternate Fusion Gun Portable - 14
R=4 Cr33,000 22.77kg QREBS=5 0 0-1 0 Effects=Pen-6 Burn-4
Recoil=Hi Loud=Vloud Flash=Bright Heat=Hot Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=-3
I tried to keep the TL the same and therefore I had to add "Alternate" to the portable weapon as "Turret" weapons automatically get TL+1. Adding "Alternate" increases the range of the portable weapon by one, yielding the same range for both systems.
Viewing the results, I have difficulties rationalizing them... The cannon is far too cheap, should have far better range than the portable gun, and its damage should be far higher - and at least not inferior. So why don't starships just mount arrays of AltFGP instead of FCT? The AltFGPs are cheaper, lighter, and more effective.
Any ideas what I am doing wrong here? Or is GunMaker that quirky? On intent?
If I was trying to make an ACS Ship Turret weapons system and a GunMaker weapons system that were the same I'd aim to have the GunMaker output a weapon in the 200kg to 500kg mass range and then see about matching the other characteristics.
See the table at the bottom of p.253 for portability. I think that Ship weapons should fall into the Turret, Vehicle Mount and Fixed classes.
Second, as I understand it Starship Armor Values are x10 times VehicleMaker AVs. So logically a Starship weapon should do x10 the Damage Effects so your Turret should be comparing Pen-40 Burn-40 to the Portable weapon's Pen-6 Burn-4.
Just to be clear, you did design the Turret in ACS not GunMaker, right?
See the table at the bottom of p.253 for portability. I think that Ship weapons should fall into the Turret, Vehicle Mount and Fixed classes.
Second, as I understand it Starship Armor Values are x10 times VehicleMaker AVs. So logically a Starship weapon should do x10 the Damage Effects so your Turret should be comparing Pen-40 Burn-40 to the Portable weapon's Pen-6 Burn-4.
Just to be clear, you did design the Turret in ACS not GunMaker, right?
thalassogen
SOC-12
No I designed it in GunMaker and followed the guidelines on Portability. In GunMaker there is no indication that Turret Weapons get a 10 times damage increase...
Ah to answer my own question I can see you didn't.....
Checking p.342 I see that the minimum Mount for a Fusion Gun in ACS is a Barbette which is 3tons volume and 5D Hits. And very important the range is R=7 and a TL14 example would be R=9 and 9tons.
Thats why. Different design systems. If you were to port your VehicleMaker Fusion Cannon Turret over and mount it in an ACS ship it would have to treat any ship armor as AVx10
Porting the R=9, 9ton TL14 Fusion Gun Barbette back to Personal Combat would give 50D Hits I think, but I'm not sure if this should be Pen-50 Burn-50, or Pen-25 Burn-25?
Some guidelines or porting between Space Combat and Personal combat would be nice.
Checking p.342 I see that the minimum Mount for a Fusion Gun in ACS is a Barbette which is 3tons volume and 5D Hits. And very important the range is R=7 and a TL14 example would be R=9 and 9tons.
Thats why. Different design systems. If you were to port your VehicleMaker Fusion Cannon Turret over and mount it in an ACS ship it would have to treat any ship armor as AVx10
Porting the R=9, 9ton TL14 Fusion Gun Barbette back to Personal Combat would give 50D Hits I think, but I'm not sure if this should be Pen-50 Burn-50, or Pen-25 Burn-25?
Some guidelines or porting between Space Combat and Personal combat would be nice.
thalassogen
SOC-12
Hm, I understand your reasoning, but as I read GunMaker, Portability = Turret means "to be mounted in standard starship turrets". Ignoring ACS for the moment, GunMaker creates "quirky" results: a man-portable fusion gun being way better than a turret mounted cannon. It's this perceived discrepancy that I am asking about.
Lets examine exactly what Turret, Vehicle Mount, and Fixed mean compared to the ACS Turret.
First I agree that the intent in the Beta was that you could drop an ACS Turret into a VehicleMaker Weapons Mount, if I recall correctly it explicitly said that. I'd also agree that you should be able to take GunMaker weapons and mount them in ACS mounts.
The problem is that somewhere along the road to publication the importance and separateness of Turret, Vehicle Mount and Fixed seem to have been set aside in VehicleMaker.
VehicleMaker makes reference only to "Weapon Mount" as an installable component on p.300. Yes it does refer to vehicle mounts, turrets and fixed mounts, but only as pre-installed components on Military Vehicles ref. p.298.
They way I've been treating this is to use the definitions as a guide to what I'm actually designing. For example: I have a 1ton volume weapon mount installed on a Vehicle. I take this to mean that I can install 200kg to 100,000kg of weapons systems in that mount. If I install one big cannon of 500kg I understand that my vehicle has a turret in that weapons mount. If i install two or four very heavy machine guns massing 400kg say, then I understand that I have a twin or quad turret on my vehicle. In my head half the ton volume is inside and half outside like a small vehicle turret in the real world. If I install an oversized autocannon of 600kg+ then thats a vehicle mount and in my head suggests a modern MBT turret comprising a 1ton block on top of the hull. A really big weapons system like a pair of os autocannon or an ICBM modeled on an ACS missile needs a fixed mount which to me suggests the kind of turret you get on a modern self propelled gun or a missile erector/launcher like that found on a mobile ICBM launcher vehicle.
In other words turret in GunMaker does not directly equal a turret in ACS.
There is a corollary to this. An ACS Turret may have a volume of between 0.333tons and 4tons. You couldn't drop that directly into a VehicleMaker Vehicle Mount which is always 1ton.
Stated another way; Turret, Vehicle Mount and Fixed from GunMaker are all expected to have a volume of 1ton. The min/max mass parameters on p.253 are there to help you decide how many weapons fit in the 1ton volume and to interpret what kind of mounting is on your vehicle. Remember there are no rules on the subject of different arcs of fire for these different mounts, so its more of a design parameter thing.
First I agree that the intent in the Beta was that you could drop an ACS Turret into a VehicleMaker Weapons Mount, if I recall correctly it explicitly said that. I'd also agree that you should be able to take GunMaker weapons and mount them in ACS mounts.
The problem is that somewhere along the road to publication the importance and separateness of Turret, Vehicle Mount and Fixed seem to have been set aside in VehicleMaker.
VehicleMaker makes reference only to "Weapon Mount" as an installable component on p.300. Yes it does refer to vehicle mounts, turrets and fixed mounts, but only as pre-installed components on Military Vehicles ref. p.298.
They way I've been treating this is to use the definitions as a guide to what I'm actually designing. For example: I have a 1ton volume weapon mount installed on a Vehicle. I take this to mean that I can install 200kg to 100,000kg of weapons systems in that mount. If I install one big cannon of 500kg I understand that my vehicle has a turret in that weapons mount. If i install two or four very heavy machine guns massing 400kg say, then I understand that I have a twin or quad turret on my vehicle. In my head half the ton volume is inside and half outside like a small vehicle turret in the real world. If I install an oversized autocannon of 600kg+ then thats a vehicle mount and in my head suggests a modern MBT turret comprising a 1ton block on top of the hull. A really big weapons system like a pair of os autocannon or an ICBM modeled on an ACS missile needs a fixed mount which to me suggests the kind of turret you get on a modern self propelled gun or a missile erector/launcher like that found on a mobile ICBM launcher vehicle.
In other words turret in GunMaker does not directly equal a turret in ACS.
There is a corollary to this. An ACS Turret may have a volume of between 0.333tons and 4tons. You couldn't drop that directly into a VehicleMaker Vehicle Mount which is always 1ton.
Stated another way; Turret, Vehicle Mount and Fixed from GunMaker are all expected to have a volume of 1ton. The min/max mass parameters on p.253 are there to help you decide how many weapons fit in the 1ton volume and to interpret what kind of mounting is on your vehicle. Remember there are no rules on the subject of different arcs of fire for these different mounts, so its more of a design parameter thing.
To specifically help you out Thalassogen I'd suggest the following:
If you want to install a GunMaker Weapons system in an ACS Turret, treat the ACS Turret like the VehicleMaker Weapon Mount*.
Unfortunately you won't be able to treat GunMaker weapons systems as exactly equivalent to ACS weapons because they are designed for two separate combat systems; Personal combat and Space Combat. I think they should be usable, but there are no guideline written for converting Space Combat Hits to Personal Combat effects. The closest thing is Missile Effects which has been puzzling us on another thread.
*One aspect I'm not so sure about is how to cater for 0.5 and 0.333 ton turrets. If you can fit 200kg to 100,000kg mass in a 1ton turret what should the limits be for the smaller volumes. I'd think 200kg should be a hard floor limit (Although mounting personal, portable and crewed weapons should be possible). Anyone have thought on this?
If you want to install a GunMaker Weapons system in an ACS Turret, treat the ACS Turret like the VehicleMaker Weapon Mount*.
Unfortunately you won't be able to treat GunMaker weapons systems as exactly equivalent to ACS weapons because they are designed for two separate combat systems; Personal combat and Space Combat. I think they should be usable, but there are no guideline written for converting Space Combat Hits to Personal Combat effects. The closest thing is Missile Effects which has been puzzling us on another thread.
*One aspect I'm not so sure about is how to cater for 0.5 and 0.333 ton turrets. If you can fit 200kg to 100,000kg mass in a 1ton turret what should the limits be for the smaller volumes. I'd think 200kg should be a hard floor limit (Although mounting personal, portable and crewed weapons should be possible). Anyone have thought on this?
thalassogen
SOC-12
Thanks, Reban.
On page 247 the core rules say explicitly:
I have no difficulty ignoring that for a moment and making up my own justification/ruling for Portability, like you did.
But I do have difficulty justifying this gross difference in weapon output, aka damage. There seems to be an error in GunMaker and I want to help cleaning up GunMaker so that it may be used by T5 GMs without second thought. At the moment I am not sure whether to trust T5 for a new campaign or not.
On page 247 the core rules say explicitly:
I have no difficulty ignoring that for a moment and making up my own justification/ruling for Portability, like you did.
But I do have difficulty justifying this gross difference in weapon output, aka damage. There seems to be an error in GunMaker and I want to help cleaning up GunMaker so that it may be used by T5 GMs without second thought. At the moment I am not sure whether to trust T5 for a new campaign or not.
Using Alternate to keep the TL the same adds +1D to both Pen and Burn right? Thats in addition to +1TL and +1 to Range.
Alternate means the weapon uses an alternate technology to achieve its effects. To me that suggests its significantly different to the Cannon turret of the same TL. Exactly what makes it different is up to the designer, but the point is Alternate makes it significantly different to the Standard fusion cannon.
Yes there is a significant difference in output, but you aren't comparing like with like. There are real world weapons systems that operate on the same principles but lethality is different between portability and vehicle mounted versions.
Is your position that for two weapons at the same TL the portable version should always do less damage than the vehicle mounted version?
Incidentally there is nothing stopping one from mounting your Alternate Fusion Gun Portable -14 in a turret or mounting your Fusion Cannon -14 on a fixed stand or artillery carriage. Someone in Oversize Dress or a Armor with a Str of 5 could even carry the cannon.
thalassogen
SOC-12
When you remove "Alternate" then damage is the same, TL is one lower and Range is one lower, too. My expectation is that damage, range, and cost should go up with weight and TL - that's an oversimplification but I hope you get what I mean.
Why in the world should anyone install a cannon when the portable gun is nearly equivalent or even better? I just plain do not get that. One could argue that this is high-tech reality but guns usually seem to outperform cannons (except for range) in GunMaker. And that is stressing believability for me. Especially when both differ in size by factor 20 from each other. There is this gun carriable by one or two people and it performs "exactly" like this 20 times bigger cannon?
I am starting to think, that GunMaker should have employed multiplication instead of addition in some steps (like ArmorMaker). Or maybe this IS intended work that way but no where this was spelled out?
Currently I am getting a headache over all this and would really appreciated enlightenment.
Why in the world should anyone install a cannon when the portable gun is nearly equivalent or even better? I just plain do not get that. One could argue that this is high-tech reality but guns usually seem to outperform cannons (except for range) in GunMaker. And that is stressing believability for me. Especially when both differ in size by factor 20 from each other. There is this gun carriable by one or two people and it performs "exactly" like this 20 times bigger cannon?
I am starting to think, that GunMaker should have employed multiplication instead of addition in some steps (like ArmorMaker). Or maybe this IS intended work that way but no where this was spelled out?
Currently I am getting a headache over all this and would really appreciated enlightenment.
Damage can't be the same if you remove Alternate according to the figures you've given. Alternate gets "2" under the column D on table 5 on p.253. according to Errata 7.1 this is applied to both D1 and D2 on the fill form, so your figures are wrong somewhere.
Cannon starts out with 4 in the D1 column compared to Gun which has 2 in the D1 column. If both receive the same Descriptors, cannon should always end up with 2D more damage than the gun.
Let me see if I can recreate your two fusion weapons.
thalassogen
SOC-12
Yes, that's another point... when are D1 and D2 added? I asked that question already in the Errata Thread.
EDIT: For reference, I posted this on the previous page in this thread:
EDIT: For reference, I posted this on the previous page in this thread:
I'm adding (based on the fact they are in the same column). The example on p.258 looks broken when compared to the text.
I get:
Fusion Cannon Turret 14
Wx: R=4 60KCr 460kg B+4 Pen 4 Burn 4
Alternate Fusion Gun Portable 14
Wx: R=4 33KCr 22.77Kg B-1 Pen 6 Burn 4
[EDIT: Fixed the Effect numbers above so the following line now makes no sense] So the portable version does more Burn damage but is equal in terms of range and Pen. It comes in a smaller lighter package for about half the price. But its a Hi recoil weapon so you'll have to buy a soldier in Dress to carry it. So that's at least another 40KCr to actually deploy it.
Its not covered in the rules but a portable weapon should have less ammo than the cannon (unless of course you put it in a vehicle mount). Just looking at Fusion weapons I can't say if guns vs. cannons are broken, fusion isn't the same as conventional weapons.
I'll take a quick look at your machine pistol next.
I get:
Fusion Cannon Turret 14
Wx: R=4 60KCr 460kg B+4 Pen 4 Burn 4
Alternate Fusion Gun Portable 14
Wx: R=4 33KCr 22.77Kg B-1 Pen 6 Burn 4
[EDIT: Fixed the Effect numbers above so the following line now makes no sense] So the portable version does more Burn damage but is equal in terms of range and Pen. It comes in a smaller lighter package for about half the price. But its a Hi recoil weapon so you'll have to buy a soldier in Dress to carry it. So that's at least another 40KCr to actually deploy it.
Its not covered in the rules but a portable weapon should have less ammo than the cannon (unless of course you put it in a vehicle mount). Just looking at Fusion weapons I can't say if guns vs. cannons are broken, fusion isn't the same as conventional weapons.
I'll take a quick look at your machine pistol next.
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On all the weapons i have designed (over 300 now), i have only added TL effects to D1. You only get a portable weapon if the weight is between 20kg and 40kg or has hi recoil. Otherwise it starts to become crewed, turret or vehicle mount as the weight goes up. I agree that the Table probably needs to be reworked, why do portables get +1 range when turrets don't seems odd to me.
Guns and cannons differ in the Size of Missile they fire as well, which if you check into the missile rules would imply that they do different damage based on Size but again doesn't explain how much or how different these are. Other than a Size 4 missile does 1/10th the damage of a Size 5 (Starship benchmark) missile, and a Size 6 missile does double. I have mentioned this on a few threads and as yet no explanations.
I'm hoping that when Marc has finished errataing the Combat section we will all have a better idea of how things should look.
Guns and cannons differ in the Size of Missile they fire as well, which if you check into the missile rules would imply that they do different damage based on Size but again doesn't explain how much or how different these are. Other than a Size 4 missile does 1/10th the damage of a Size 5 (Starship benchmark) missile, and a Size 6 missile does double. I have mentioned this on a few threads and as yet no explanations.
I'm hoping that when Marc has finished errataing the Combat section we will all have a better idea of how things should look.
Ultimate VHeavy Machine Pistol -9
Wx: R=3 Cr 3.7Kg B+2 R+2 Bullet 10
Not sure how you got to Bullet 17. What I got was:
Pistol gives H1 Bullet and D1 =1
Machine gives H2 Bullet and D2 =2
VHeavy gives D =5
Ultimate gives D =2
Total = 10
That gives Bullet-10
I've also kept the range to =3 because I think in table 04 p.252 where you get an = it sets the maximum range, but like everything else I could be wrong. Looking at the ranges this means my pistol is for use at between 100m and 300m but your range =5 pistol is for 750m to 3km. I'm not sure any machine pistol would kit the side of a barn 3km away even if the pistol round carried that far.
Wx: R=3 Cr 3.7Kg B+2 R+2 Bullet 10
Not sure how you got to Bullet 17. What I got was:
Pistol gives H1 Bullet and D1 =1
Machine gives H2 Bullet and D2 =2
VHeavy gives D =5
Ultimate gives D =2
Total = 10
That gives Bullet-10
I've also kept the range to =3 because I think in table 04 p.252 where you get an = it sets the maximum range, but like everything else I could be wrong. Looking at the ranges this means my pistol is for use at between 100m and 300m but your range =5 pistol is for 750m to 3km. I'm not sure any machine pistol would kit the side of a barn 3km away even if the pistol round carried that far.
Errata says: "p. 250, 02 GunMaker, Weapon FillForm (clarification): For the FillForm, the D value from GunMaker 05, Burden and Stage (page 253) applies to both D1 and D2. "
So I'm just following that.
Amen brother!
thalassogen
SOC-12
And this is the answer:
Pistol gives H1 Bullet and D1 =1
Machine gives H2 Bullet and D2 =2
VHeavy gives D =5 (added to D1 and D2)
Ultimate gives D =2 (added to D1 and D2)
D1 = 1+5+2 = 8
D2 = 2+5+2 = 9
Total Bullet = 8+9 = 17
Concerning Range:
Pistol is R=2
Machine sets R=3 (I interpreted it the same as you)
Vheavy is R=*5 and for me that couldn't be true, so I interpreted it as R=5
Ouch! I see how that works, and also that it doesn't apply to D3, which has implications for the Alternate Fusion Gun Portable above. The Fillform is supposed to be the ultimate guide to the design, and that makes it very messy to use.
More clarification of the clarification please Don.
o: If you look at the tables again only Machine has =3 in the Range column. In line with other errata I assume the asterisk on the 5 is a typo. If not the design is broken in my mind because hitting things at 1000m (or up to 3km) with pistol ammo is unlikely to be viable.
At this point I have the same headache :nonono:
