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T5 discussions at rpg.net

Nope, me neither.

But then I've used GURPS Vehicles, GURPS Uplift, GURPS Bio-tech, GURPS Robots, and GURPS Space to fill in details IMTU - but I wouldn't say I was running GURPS ;)
 
I would
. In fact I was using GURPS Space and the GURPS engine to run the game, so I did call it a GURPS game.

I think there's a difference between saying "I'm running this game with CT rules so it's Traveller" and saying "this isn't Traveller because it's not being run with CT rules". It's like running a homebrew interstellar scifi game with Cyberpunk 2020 rules that obviously isn't set in the Cyberpunk 2020 Universe. It'd be somewhat hard to justify calling that a CP2020 game, though you could say it's run using CP2020 rules though.
 
Ahh, but I use the CT+ rules to actually run the game ;)

Characters are generated by LBB1+CotI+MT, combat is LBB1/4 weapons with T4/T20 armour rules, ships, ship combat, trade, world generation all LBB2 or LBB3 (or bits from Starter Edition).

I'm using an historical OTU setting at the moment, but the next will be proto-Traveller in the Spinward Marches (with a little surprise thrown in...).

I use the GURPS stuff converted to CT terms in order to flesh out the tech etc.

CT at its inseption was a set of rules for running games in your own universe, because at that time there was no OTU, that came later.

I'd have to agree that today the OTU setting is probably more recognised as the brand than the rule system, but an awful lot of the comments at rpg.net voice the opinion that Traveller should include lifepath character genaration, jump drives, no ftl communicators etc.
 
It's a continuum, Mal. I've seen CT games that were so houseruled that they no longer have any of the feel left.

I've heard of GURPS Games which captured the feel of traveller.

For me, the look and feel boils down to several things...
1) the task labels and their progression
2) Jump drive and it's caveats
3) Interstellar nobility with more patents than jobs by several orders of magnitude.
4) Simple and playable trade rules.

Realism has never been a major issue for me. Narrative flow, and a chandelier swinging space opera setting. The OTU isn't realistic. It is "age of sail" in space, complete with sword wielding soldiers and dueling nobles.

Firefly/Serenity is pretty clearly Joss Whedon's ATU... and a wicked good time. (I can't sell most of my players on the Sovereign Stone/Serenity RPG rules...)

But the very depth of the setting materials, and their difficulty to acquire, and the community's interconnectedness of older-edition-archaeology makes it intimidating.

GT's prolificacy is a pretty good thing for detail lovers. It does, however, define a lot of things in ways many GM's using other rulesets don't. THis can be a problem if one is part of mixed communities. It also provided the long awaited "Decent GURPS Space setting." (Not to cast any aspersions on GURPS Humanx nor Transhuman Space. They just don't appeal to as many, nor generally the same types. And Humanx is OOP...)

I do see a place for a new edition. I doubt Marc has the guts to do it the way it needs to be done, since the long term survival of the brand will require un-diluting the brand identity, and making the inter-edition-archaeology a formalized no-no. Undiluting the brand identity means pulling the various editions (which are making some ongoing cash for Marc, not a lot, but some) and releasing an edition capable of supporting a variety of play styles.

What it doesn't need is pointless table-rolling, proven unpopular approaches to tasks, competition with older editions, and "Not Invented Here" chauvinism.

It needs to be simple, direct, moderately realistic, playable, and readable. Both GT and T20 try real hard to do that (within the limits of their respective basal rules). T4 didn't.

Is 2007 the right time for T5? Probably not. The OTU needs a reimagining, not just a new coat of ink.
 
I think the only way it's going to get a re-imagining is if Marc realises that it's time for him to let go and let someone else take over the direction of the game.

It needs to start again with a blank slate. Problem is, TNE tried to do that and the CT grognards kicked up an enormous stink over it, which has probably scared off anyone else from trying that again. So instead we have rehash after rehash set in previous eras of the same, dull universe.

Firefly isn't an ATU. It's a totally separate setting, with no relation whatsoever to Traveller beyond the fact that it's got a bunch of people on a ship trying to eke out a living through legit and illegitimate trade. But IMO it's enjoyable and accessible because it doesn't have a ton of baggage associated with it. Plus, it's just cool. ;)
 
Joss stated it was his hombrew universe for an unnamed but popular Sci-Fi RPG. Considering all the traveller trappings (except Jump Drives), Traveller is the most likely candidate.

And TNE didn't "Blank Slate" the setting. At least not in any real way. It intentionally was the same setting suffering a darkening tragedy. That is a very big, very demoralizing turn.

The blank slate was 2300.
 
It's false to claim Firefly is a Traveller ATU though. It was influenced by it, sure, but there's nothing in that film that is linked specifically to Traveller. The ships were different, the history was different, the universe is different, there are no aliens, and the tech is different too. I know that some people want to see Traveller everywhere they go, but you're deluding yourself if you claim that Firefly is some form of Traveller - it isn't. Unless you're going to claim that any story revolving around a group of people ekeing out a living in a spaceship is "Traveller".

Funny, I thought you were always claiming that TNE was an alternate setting because the tech rules weren't there same ;) .

2300 wasn't a blank slate of Traveller though, it had absolutely nothing to do with it - it was a totally new setting (maybe you're going to claim that Cadillacs and Dinosaurs was a blank slate of Traveller too? ;) ).

I think most people know what I mean when I say blank slate - I mean take the existing Traveller setting and reinvent it from scratch. You said it yourself - it needs "reimagining". Take all the pre-existing canon, remove all the inconsistencies and contradictions and nonsensical bits and create a single unified history and setting that is realistic, sensible and reliable - that goes for stellar data, UWPs, ship designs, and history. Heck, add some more bits as needed to make the game more interesting to play. We've got a setting that spans from year 990 to 1248 now, there's plenty of room to do something there. Once that's done, declare all previous canon to be irrelevant and discard it.

That done, make a ruleset that is primarily relevant to modern gamers, but that the older fans can handle too. This should be elegant, usable, consistent and sensible without being so complicated and table-based that it obstructs roleplaying (there are plenty of systems like this today - e.g DP9's Silhouette system). Once that's done, that'd be the ruleset that defines the setting, and declare all previous rulesets irrelevant. Ideally this should be a generic scifi ruleset that is adaptable to any kind of setting (like Alternity tried to be, I guess).

So then you'd have a single reinvented consistent universe with a single consistent ruleset. Obviously it wouldn't satisfy everyone, but that was unlikely in the first place. Ironically, GURPS Traveller was the closest to this because it was basically its own thing. But right now we seem to be headed for a new system that most fans don't want anything to do with, coupled to yet another addendum of a setting that is groaning under the weight of its flaws and inconsistencies.
 
No. When I bought my first copy of 2300m it clearly then read and clearly now still reads "Traveller:2300 Mankind's Journey to the Stars"

Nice grey box. 2300 was a blank slate, and used what: was the DGP-CT add-on task system; would become the MT Task System; and is the general favorite task system over the last 15 years for Traveller.

It was, mechanically, a great traveller version. It wasn't the OTU from CT, but it was "Traveller" by YOUR definition from another thread... it bore the trademark.

And none of this contradicts the theory that CT, MT, and TNE are separate OTU's due to differences in physics...

Firefly, the series (the movie is titled Serenity), has the look and feel of Traveller, was based upon concepts from a role playing game, and while it lacks the J-Drive, it's a really consistent to CT. Mr. Whedon has admitted in an interview that it was based upon an RPG in print....

The FIrefly/Serenity Universe feels very much either Traveller or 2300 inspired, shares much of the tech paradigms (including low tech and high tech mixes due to trade) of CT, and focuses on the life of a tramp merchant. It is as close to traveller as any TV I've seen. I've not seen Serenity... yet.
 
You're just being difficult as usual, Aramis :rolleyes: . You know darn well that Traveller:2300 was later changed to 2300AD because GDW admitted that it had nothing to do with the (Classic) Traveller Universe. As far as I'm concerned, Traveller:2300 is a non-entity for the purposes of discussion - it was a marketting error that GDW made and was subsequently replaced by 2300AD. And either way, it was a totally different setting anyway.

And "closeness to Traveller" doesn't make a fictional universe "Traveller". Firefly does share a lot of elements with what people generally think of as Traveller, but the fact is that it just isn't Traveller. It's someone else's scifi universe that looks similar to it, that may well have drawn inspiration from it - but that's as far as it goes, and that doesn't make it "Traveller". Particularly given that nobody involved in Traveller had anything to do with the project anyway.
 
I'm being difficult? One could as easily argue that you are being intentionally clueless.

No, Traveller 2300 is and was, a Marc Miller game, in the overall traveller line, and is plenty of proof that GDW (not of need Marc, but the company) felt in the 1980's that Traveller was NOT the setting. They changed it due to popular demand... from both sides (CT and 2300 players).

Likewise, several of the other "Traveller" games are not tied to the setting. I'll grant that Invasion:Earth, 5FW, and AHL are; Mayday, Snapshot, and Striker are not (they're generic enough that the universe matters not). Dark Nebula and Imperium Claim to be part of the setting, but in reality, could be but do not add enough to be noticed, and the setting is pure chrome.

Traveller was a dumping ground for the GDW "Far Future" settings. That they'd consider the related rules to belong in the same line is sensible. It was a bad business move, but it was sensible. They didn't have the ease of player access now standard.
 
I personally think GDW put the Traveller logo on 2300 to draw Traveller fans to it and impulsively buy it without looking too close. They wanted the "buy anything with 'Traveller' on it" fan to purchase it and there were some out there. That way 2300 would sell some and maybe get it's own fan base started even though it was a different and very much a 'non-Traveller' game. Didn't work on me. I opened it and noticed 'stutterwarp' and said to myself, WTF is 'stutterwarp'? That ain't no jump drive. No thruster tech, completerly different "future history" than what had been in written in Traveller books before. Nope, that ain't Traveller no matter what logo they put on it.

I think alot of Traveller fans felt the same way I did and complained to GDW and they took the Traveller logo off due to demand. IMO, it was a bad advertising move that backfired. It was another mis-step GDW took that disappointed it's Traveller fanbase and weakened GDW's sales because of it. 2300's release right after MT and it's jolting changes to the "future history" coupled with 2300's big differences in tech and "history" led many loyal CT era fans to loose heart with GDW. As MT continued to 'destroy' the setting for many fans especially the supplement Hardtimes lead to the realitively complete loss of fans when TNE with it's setting shattering VIRUS appeared.

IMO
 
I'm not even sure why you're making a point of this, Aramis - you seem to dig your heels in over really insignificant things a lot of the time.

It really doesn't matter what you think Traveller:2300 was or what GDW's original intention for it was - the fact is, it's not Traveller now and it's not part of the OTU now either. That's all that matters. And it's not even relevant to the discussion so I don't know why you even raised it.

Getting back to something that's actually relevant to the topic at hand, I explained what I meant by "blank slate", evidently you misunderstood me and thought I meant "come up with an entirely new background", which isn't what I meant at all. I meant "disassemble/deconstruct the existing canon, get rid of all the nonsensical and conflicting crap, and put it back together in a way that it finally actually makes sense and is internally consistent".

All this meandering about what GDW did in the past is largely irrelevant - GDW aren't around today, and things are rather different and a darn sight less coherent nowadays. Right now we have Avenger (who seem to be the only Traveller producers actually interested in moving the setting forward), SJG doing their own thing with Interstellar Wars, SPL doing the Spica book, QLI which is for all intents and purposes a dead company, and Marc/FFE wandering off in his own direction completely oblivious to what anyone else wants, in the vain hope that everyone is suddenly going to drop what they're doing to use T5.

What Traveller needs to be IMO is a dedicated (and usable, which T5 isn't) generic SF ruleset, like Alternity was. Then the settings can be tacked onto that as independent modules. Currently the rules and settings are entangled together in a horrible intertwined mess, and they need to be extricated from that. Then you can call the rules "Traveller" and the setting that uses those rules "Third Imperium" or "2300AD" or whatever.
 
Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
No thruster tech, completerly different "future history" than what had been in written in Traveller books before. Nope, that ain't Traveller no matter what logo they put on it.
It's particularly baffling since it's quite obviously a continuation of the Twilight 2000 timeline, which also had nothing to do with Traveller... Would have made more sense to call it "T2k: 2300AD" if not for the fact that you have two different dates there ;) .
 
I think most people know what I mean when I say blank slate - I mean take the existing Traveller setting and reinvent it from scratch.
I really like the setting - the Third Imperium setting, I mean. I, personally cut off at Year 1111 and go an alternate route, but there's no reason why the information can't be consolidated. I mean, has anyone ever played out visiting 11,000 worlds? NO! So why print them all? Just print the important ones. I couldn't even begin to find the UWPs for the capitals of the Major Races. The limiting factor of Jump drive is what limits most games to a little corner of known space. This is one of the reasons for the information overload. Everybody wants to play in a different area. Or different part of the timeline. I think we're discussing here is really what someone wants in YTU instead of what's in the OTU.

Maybe I'm wrong.
 
Mal, if they wanted to play off the Twilight:2000 game they should have named it "Dawn:2300" and put blurbs on the box that clearly defined it as a game expansion of the T:2000 "history" and rules into the "space-faring future".

Putting "Traveller" on the 2300 game was GDW's (failed) ploy to introduce Traveller fans to GDW's new in house rule system used in T:2000. I think even at this eary time GDW wanted to eventually move all of their RPG's to these new rules. Plus it might interest some Traveller fans enough to buy Twilight 2000. Of course by TNE the Traveller fan had no choice, it was based on GDW's in house T:2000 rules and if you wanted to keep buying and playing in the "Official Traveller Universe" you had to adjust your game, rules and all, to TNE and it's history. IMO it backfired badly and partly led to GDW's downfall.

Followed by T4 which also flopped due to badly edited rules and a retreat into a un-interesting timeline/era (the founding of the 3rd Imperium, huh, why do I wanna play that knowing that whatever my PC does probably wont re-define future history). Big mistake that lost more original fans, fans that were getting older with families to raise and less game time to play. With what I've read of T5 it seems another mistake is being made. It seems like T5 is going to fall like T4 did as far as setting is concerned.
 
Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I think most people know what I mean when I say blank slate - I mean take the existing Traveller setting and reinvent it from scratch.
I really like the setting - the Third Imperium setting, I mean.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not suggesting getting rid of the 3I setting, just to trim out the (tons of) inconsistent crap and conflicting data and history from it.

Everybody wants to play in a different area. Or different part of the timeline. I think we're discussing here is really what someone wants in YTU instead of what's in the OTU.
The size is a problem, I agree.

Personally, I think the Spinward Marches would be so much better as a setting if (a) they hadn't been done to death so many times and (b) if they weren't part of something larger. If the entire Traveller universe was just the Marches then you could really go to town on the detail - a GT:Sword Worlds style book for each subsector would be rather good.

Heck, SJG have two out of three good 'regional' setting books (Rim of Fire is an excellent setting book, and Sword Worlds shows what you can do with just a subsector). Hopefully the Spica book that SPL is working on (and that I'm helping out with) can be of the same calibre. You just don't need a zillion systems (most of which are largely irrelevant backwaters anyway) in a setting.
 
Randy: T2300/2300AD was not rules compatible with any edition of T2K, any more than it was rules compatible with CT, nor TNE.

TNE 1 and 2.0 had only three difficulty levels, very different stat sets, and very different combat methodologies. And were mutually incompatible (one's a 3-18 stat, %ile skills game, the other a 1-10 stat, 1-10 skills game...) with each other. TNE was the jump of the main traveller line over to the House Engine.

It's closest mechanical relative is MegaTraveller.... although all GDW RPG's drew from the prior ones. Like MT, it's an outgrowth from CT's rules with DGP influences. Unlike MT, it was done in house, and is not the CTU.

Of course, the CTU wasn't really strongly the OTU at the time, either. MT was still a ways off, T2K was not even a similar system. And what would become the OTU was strongly present in the later CT supplements, but was only vaguely presented in the core rules (TTB and Starter both mention the CTTU pretty explicitly).

For Mal's benefit, the reason this matters is that, until 1996, Traveller was NOT "Marc Miller's". It was GDW's. It was a group project, for which Marc had the initial kicker, and from which Marc had been partially removed. It's important to understand the process. Especially when YOU, Mal, assert:
What people think is or isn't Traveller is another source of pointless argument. They're all Traveller whether we like it or not, because it says so on the cover. Obviously there's no obligation to like every version of the game that comes out, but it's pretty meaningless to claim that a version "isn't Traveller" when it clearly says that it is.
for the more primal discussion at hand, tho, a better comparison would be the old and new BSG series... same basic concepts, build anew from there. (I may find the new BSG disgusting, but it sells.) That is what is needed, and what Marc will most likely NOT do.

Just as BSG was held back by the original's campy nature, the variety of extended canon (Novels, comics, games), and even the nature of the characters. The new one took a good look, chose their commonalities, and literally dumped overboard all the rest of the old.

The CT, MT, TNE, and T4 supplements have, in a very real way, become baggage, of the same type as the old BSG setting.. T20 and GT both have the potential to likewise become baggage. GT has not tied itself tightly to prior editions. T20 has. If Marc wants to mold traveller to a new edition, he needs to do an edition free of the baggage.

Personally, I think the Spinward Marches would be so much better as a setting if (a) they hadn't been done to death so many times and (b) if they weren't part of something larger. If the entire Traveller universe was just the Marches then you could really go to town on the detail - a GT:Sword Worlds style book for each subsector would be rather good.
I've not seen GT-SW... but the level of detail presented in the Traveller Adventure was constraining enough for many.

Too much detail is as bad as not enough. Until I saw a map of "Known Space", I assumed the marches were a sector or two away from capital, not 4.
 
The thing that baffles me most about Traveller is how people insist that out-of-date editions are still relevant. Usually when a new edition comes out, the old one is supplanted by it. For some inexplicable reason, many in the Traveller community insist that what came first is correct and anything that came later isn't or has to agree with it. Given that the old stuff has so many problems it's bizarre that people insist on sticking with it. I blame some wacky misplaced sense of nostalgia, or perhaps the pseudo-religious zeal of some of its fanatics (it's called 'canon' for a reason, because people insist on treating it like religious dogma). But this is one of the major things that is holding back the game, because it only serves to put people off from making any of the changes that are desperately required to the official setting.

IMO the new BSG is vastly superior to the old one because it's dumped all the campy stuff overboard (I'm not surprised you loathe it, Aramis, given your apparent neophobia). Not that the old one isn't good taken in the right context, but it's a pale shadow to its descendant. Heck, I loved the old series but as soon as I saw the new one I was completely blown away by its quality. It's fine to be nostalgic, but when you cling to the past so much that it blinds you to good quality stuff coming out now, then it's getting silly.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
The thing that baffles me most about Traveller is how people insist that out-of-date editions are still relevant. Usually when a new edition comes out, the old one is supplanted by it. For some inexplicable reason, many in the Traveller community insist that what came first is correct and anything that came later isn't or has to agree with it. Given that the old stuff has so many problems it's bizarre that people insist on sticking with it. I blame some wacky misplaced sense of nostalgia, or perhaps the pseudo-religious zeal of some of its fanatics (it's called 'canon' for a reason, because people insist on treating it like religious dogma).
Or perhaps it has to do with the fact that the publishers (with the exception of SJG) specifically continued to build on the OTU as new editions were released, rather than clearing the slate and starting anew.

I don't see all of the "bizarre problems" that trouble Malenfant so, but my gearhead quotient is much lower than many other Traveller gamers - MTU tends to be personalized quite a bit, and coming up with a simple, setting-consistent handwave is usually enough to keep the action moving.

And that is, for me, the ultimate goal, and the reason I still enjoy Traveller (one of those crappy old editions, no less): it's fun. CT hits my sweet spot in terms of mechanics, providing sufficient detail without undue complexity, allowing me to run the kinds of games that I enjoy. I like the broad sweep of Traveller universe, specifically the story of the Imperiums and the spread of humaniti among the stars - it's an amazingly fertile history from which to draw in crafting adventures.

And that's what I look for in a game system: it's easy to run and provides the basis for exciting adventures. That's it.

I tend to stay away from the T5 discussions for a couple of reasons. First, I'm nowhere near arrogant enough to think that I'm any kind of expert on, "What gamers want today is...." What my experience tells me is that any game system is as good as its game master, that slicker-'n-snot systems are worthless in the hands of someone who just doesn't have it. I've yet to find the designer or developer who can overcome, or conversely improve upon, what the game master brings to the table, and the ultimate interface is and will continue to be not the gamers and rules, but the players and the game master.

Second, I'm just one lonely data point, and probably an outlier at that, but I know with iron-clad certainty what I like and what I don't, and try as they may, no one has been able to convince me that Traveller is "teh broken!!11!!11" and in dire need of "fixing," because I have more fun right now with this old, broken game than with a dozen other systems.

T5? I'll check it out when it's released. If it's cool, I'll buy it, and if it's in my wheelhouse I'll use it as my system of choice for running games set in the Third Imperium. Until then I will be playing in, and introducing new players to, my favorite old broken game, and having a lot of fun.
 
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