T5 discussions at rpg.net

[aramis]

Merxilex: it's clear that T5 is looking like T4.x

It also was clear that T4 didn't do well nor draw a decent new fanbase... it did bring a few, but not a whole terrible lot. It did not get a lot of extant fans, either. A new edition can survive either, but not both. I'm not certain the exact relationships, but I can say that it wasn't JUST the poor editing nor the mechanics alone that caused the failure.

T4 suffered from poor editing, poor management, not terribly good overall design, poor advertising, gearheadism, irrelevant art (aside from the excellent Elmore pencils) and corporate malfeasance by/at IG.

A cleaned up T4 (erratta applied, new art, decent editing) would still have mediocre design and gearheadism. Judging from what Marc's willing to be let be released (Specifically the MT CDRom), it appears that Marc does NOT understand the market need for quality control in current release materials.

Hunter has a better grip (pun intentional) on it, but still is not up to the standards of SJG or WWG... but few others are, yet. Even SJG routinely publishes errata. Seldom more than a couple of entries per item. If we needed to catch everything in playtest, we'd have needed another YEAR of playtest, at least. I do know that T20 second printing had some errata applied.

(My T20 comps wound up being 2nd printing, and some of the errata items were corrected.)

CT doesn't have a lot of Errata. There is a little.

MT NEEDS a retypset version with the errata applied... desperately. I'm certain the fans can/would do so. Hell, If Marc would let me, I'd be happy to layout a new MT version... but I've no track record and can't commit to a firm schedule due to Grad School.

TNE has somme significant errata issues, few but profound. (Several Tables in FF&S!); it's good enough that adding the errata sheet at the end should cover it on the DTRPG stuff.

T4 has so much, it is in as bad a shape as MT, and probably has about the same fan base... but theirs are in good shape, and the discount bins still have T4 stuff... which won't sell at 10%!

 

[Plankowner]

Avenger is trying to update and retool Classic Traveller. That might be more like what people want T5 to be than what T5 will end up being.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
Avenger is trying to update and retool Classic Traveller. That might be more like what people want T5 to be than what T5 will end up being.

Yes, at least half (maybe more?) of the folks who express a preference seem to want CT+.

I think ACT (Avenger Classic Traveller) looks pretty sharp.

 

[Malenfant]

So the question really is this - why the hell does Marc continue on regardless when he surely must know by now that nobody is really interested in his vision of T5?

Personally I think in part he's just pig stubborn and doesn't want to accept that his "vision" is out of date and largely irrelevant (and done better by others already), and part is that he knows there's going to be people who say they'll buy anything he does regardless of quality or whether or not they actually are going to put it to any use.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So the question really is this - why the hell does Marc continue on regardless when he surely must know by now that nobody is really interested in his vision of T5?

Presumably he doesn't actually think that's true. He may, of course, be wrong.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Screw rules, just publish settings.

Word.

 

[mike wightman]

I think in the present rpg climate I'd be looking at producing a series of Traveller setting books powered by d20M/F, and a duplicate series powered by the new OGL Mongoose RuneQuest.

 

[aramis]

A pure setting book won't do so hot, either... it must be tied to some successful system (GURPS, Hero, RM/SM, etc) with enough rules material to make it playable. And, based upon Marc's lack of concern over tables creating huge swaths of new races, etc, it's pretty clear his view of the Universe isn't exactly, um, "canon friendly." (Loren's is far closer to mainstream fanbase.) So, even if T5 is system-less or -light, it likely won't be the 3I we know, even if it IS the 3I.

The pure setting books I've seen have limited fan appeal... most have a house system tied in to the assumptions. For example, the old Atlantean System by Bard Games, and the Arduin series by (I can't recall whom) both very clearly hung themselves off of a D&D/AD&D framework, but were darned near fully playable on their own.

 

[Malenfant]

Maybe a signal that he could understand would be a total boycott of the T5 playtest. If everyone just up and left it (assuming anyone is still there), with a parting note of "this is crap, we're not wasting our time on something that will be so unsuccessful and whose author doesn't listen to criticism", that might get the point across better.

 

[Merxiless]

I think he does it, because, like all creative artists, his vision doesn't match what is able to be created in reality, pretty much. And he's got courage enough to press on, DESPITE the naysayers.

I wasn't part of the T5 playtest, so *shrug*.

He knows there's going to be people who say they hate anything he does regardless of quality or whether or not they actually are going to put it to any use.

He might actually have a hit. Maybe not, but I'll reserve pre-judgement, until I see what hits the shelves.

If it's even halfway good, it'll blow d20 4th ed away. And if not, it's what? 30-40 dollars for the core book?

I've got 6 bookshelves full of games. One more won't matter all that much. To me. I even collect stuff from...was it...Phoenix Games? And old Judges Guild modules, just because it has Traveller stuff. A lot of it doesn't get used, I admit. But some of it does.

But if Traveller 5 fails, then perhaps we can see the stellar, stupendous fly off the shelves game designs of people here.

Seriously, I am looking forward to it. Call it a New Era of Gaming.

There are what? over 100 semi-regular posters here who are smart cookies. One wonders what even FIVE of them might create to fill the void of a dead T5?

Flynn is leading the charge, as we speak.

Or keeping the flame alive.

Either way, same difference.

How many T5 writers or new game designers will emerge, within 5 years?

The Far Future of Science Fiction Roleplaying Adventure is not yet written.

 

[Malenfant]

It's nothing to do with "courage to press on", he's just ignoring what everyone else is saying that could actually make T5 better. His supposed "vision" isn't even that exciting as it stands - it was visionary about 20 years ago but by today's standards it's over-complicated and unexciting.

I don't like Marc's work because I don't think it's any good, I don't dislike it just for the sake of disliking it. If he did write something that I liked then I'd give it the praise it deserves, but all I've seen of T5 is very amateur, archaic, poorly written, poorly explained, and overcomplicated. There are a lot of people here who could either improve that considerably (if only he'd listen) or just write something from scratch that'd be a lot better.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Merxiless:

If it's even halfway good, it'll blow d20 4th ed away. And if not, it's what? 30-40 dollars for the core book?

Collectors may buy obscure works, which is cool, that makes them librarians of a sort. We've got one of them in our game group, so if I need to consult anything Traveller I know who to go to.

But I don't collect, so if T5 isn't useful enough to me, I won't buy it. Moreover, books that sit unused on my shelves for more than a year are sold or donated.

I don't expect Traveller5 to be a big hit. It's a niche game. It might have modest performance.

I certainly find it hard to believe it is being released in one year. No way. It doesn't seem ready. Nearly every piece of it is in preliminary draft form.

I'm also not expecting Avenger Classic Traveller to be a runaway hit, even though I like just about everything I've seen of it.

I hope I'm wrong on both counts.

Huh. I suppose ACT could be released for Traveller's 30th birthday. That would be fitting.

 

[Berg]

I think ACT has potential.... on most of the forums I frequent there seems to be a desire for "lite" or streamlined games, and this may fit the bill.

So we'd have Hero Traveller for crunch (and Gurps if it keeps going), and ACT for the lighter fair... so where does that leave T5?

 

[aramis]

Merxiless:

Every failed line (At the moment, that's T4) undercuts retailer support for other products in the meta-line.

T4 Devalued Traveller as a whole.

Locally, GT and T20 both got very small initial orders based upon T4's failure to sell. (There are STILL T4 products unsold at that store, even at 90% off.)

If T5 launches and flops, GT and T20 will both suffer for it.

As will ACT.

 

[Peter Newman]

"Every failed line (At the moment, that's T4)" - Aramis

Didn't TNE fail too?

" undercuts retailer support for other products in the meta-line.

T4 Devalued Traveller as a whole."

Locally, GT and T20 both got very small initial orders based upon T4's failure to sell." - Aramis

Theres more to it then that, _most_ games get very small orders these days. Total worldwide distributor preorders for some (many?) role playing products are under 1,000 copies. Roleplaying games not written by WOTC just don't sell. Heck, even roleplaying games written by WOTC don't sell unless they're called Dungeons & Dragons. Heck even roleplaying games called Dungeons and Dragons have lost some of their luster, check out Hasbros business statements. At what point does roleplaying [1] stop being an 'industry' and become a vanity press?

Stores that order things that don't sell go out of business. Every store that goes out of business means fewer copies of the next game will be preordered, which means fewer games will be made, which means that the surviving game stores will have fewer games to sell, which mean some of them will close. It's like one of those rows of dominoes, push one over and they all go. As they die the bad stores blow everything out on ebay glutting the market and making customers unwilling to pay full price for anything.

If you want to create a game that people will actually play or that you'd actually make money at, you'd do a MMORPG....

Disclaimer: All views and opinions are (or at least might be) my own [2], and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of anyone else, such as my employers....

[1] CCG's, CMG's, miniatures games, and board games are in better shape, but that's another story.

[2] Although if you read what Ryan Dancey has to say on the industry, you'll seee it all explained more, and better, than I just did.

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Merxiless:
T4 Devalued Traveller as a whole.

Locally, GT and T20 both got very small initial orders based upon T4's failure to sell. (There are STILL T4 products unsold at that store, even at 90% off.)

Do they sell mail-order? Do they have a website?
90% off sounds like I could afford to buy some!

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Peter Newman:
Didn't TNE fail too?

Actually, it didn't.

One day, a truck rolled up to GDW with the returned copies of the Desert Storm Fact Book, and GDW didn't have the money to pay for it. The company folded.

TNE was doing about as well as any RPG game at the time (getting hurt by MTG), but it wasn't a failure. A lot of old fans didn't like it, but as many new fans were generated.

 

[aramis]

Boscos.com

Peter Newman, their ordering and games guy, is on here... PM him for exact info.

And TNE didn't fail, though Boscos does have a few TNE and MT items in the bins as well, they aren't at slash-n-burn pricing.

 

[Peter Newman]

"Originally posted by Peter Newman:
Didn't TNE fail too?
  Actually, it didn't.

  Once day, a truck rolled up to GDW with the returned copies of the Desert Storm Fact Book, and GDW didn't have the money to pay for it."

And if other things had sold better maybe they would have had the money to pay for it.

"The company folded.

  TNE was doing about as well as any RPG game at the time (getting hurt by MTG), but it wasn't a failure. A lot of old fans didn't like it, but as many new fans were generated."

I'm not talking about good or bad, I argued all that ten years ago on the traveller Mailing List and I'm too old, fat and lazy to do so again. I'm talking about how well it _sold_.

As a point of consideration take a look at one of the last, if not the very last, TNE books ever made - The Guilded Lily.
Take a look at the large font, were they padding the book to make length? Take a look at the illustrations, almost everything except the cover art is nothing more than clip art. The other interior art is somewhat crude black and white sketches. Take a look at the large margins. You can tell this was done as cheaply as possible. There's nothing wrong with a low budget games, but the fact that all GDW apparently _had_ was a low budget is a telling sing that they had problems.

It happens to be a very interesting adventure, but it's production values are amaturish, even for 1995.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Peter Newman:
Didn't TNE fail too?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Actually, it didn't.

One day, a truck rolled up to GDW with the returned copies of the Desert Storm Fact Book, and GDW didn't have the money to pay for it."

And if other things had sold better maybe they would have had the money to pay for it.
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually not.

GDW was strongly encouraged to produce the Desert Storm Fact Book by its publisher due to the wild success of the Desert Shield Fact Book.

It was vastly overprinted and did not sell many copies.

The cost to pay for the returns broke the company. In order for TNE to have saved the company by "selling better than it did", it would have had to have been outselling any RPG in the history of the industry to that point by a large margin. It is an unreasonable assertion to make that better sales from TNE could have saved the company from the Desert Storm Fact Book return debacle.

At best, better sales from TNE would have made the end of the company a little easier on its owners. (Barring the improbable scenario that somehow TNE had, in fact, outsold all other RPGs to that point by a large margin.)

Originally posted by Peter Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
The company folded.

TNE was doing about as well as any RPG game at the time (getting hurt by MTG), but it wasn't a failure. A lot of old fans didn't like it, but as many new fans were generated."

I'm talking about how well it _sold_.
</font>[/QUOTE]So am I.

Originally posted by Peter Newman:
As a point of consideration take a look at one of the last, if not the very last, TNE books ever made - The Guilded Lily.
Take a look at the large font, were they padding the book to make length?

I do not have The Guilded Lily, but I know what you mean.

Any company can do that, regardless of whether or not its failure is imminent.

TSR published FR10 Shining South, back in the late 80s.

The product was, and I mean this literally, 50% empty due to over-sized margins.

The likely circumstances are more related to not having a good enough product ready to go and having a printer slot open and ready to be lost, along with a go/no-go decision.

Originally posted by Peter Newman:
[...] but the fact that all GDW apparently _had_ was a low budget is a telling sing that they had problems.

I'd be interested in hearing the production story for the The Guilded Lily. I'll have to scan the Dave Nielson topic and see if he mentioned it or otherwise answered a question about it.