• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

T5 CDROM Progress Report

Does this mean Marc has released a beta version of a beta version of the rules so he can [get] twice as many rules written by other people who [paid] for the [privilege] to create his IP? What a business model!

I take your point, but that still doesn't change what is happening here. In essence, someone is selling a beta version of a game (in fact it's currently a beta of a beta), and is then going to use the customers to help build the full game and then charge those same customers yet again for the [privilege] of the final release! If paying for the [privilege] to work for someone is your idea of entertainment, then by all means. I'm not attempting to stand in anyone's way (not that I could). I'm just somewhat incredulous that it's happening and suspect many who have [paid] for the CD didn't [realize] it would pan out quite like this. Then again, they can ask for their money back.....

[Just walks away shaking his head....]

First, you pre-paid to receive a copy of the T5 rule set when it is released; and not to beta test it.

Second, there is no second. You paid for the privilege to have a copy sent directly to you when it becomes available.

Third, Marc is being nice enough to allow you to beta test the product to help ensure it is playable and the misspelled words, bad grammar, bad mechanics, and bugs are kept to as much of a minimal as possible. This is done so you are not purchasing a T5.5 like many people had to do for the 3.0 rules in D&D.

To sum it all up you paid the $35.00 to pre-order a copy of the T5 rule set, and Marc is allowing those who have already order the option to help play test the game to help eliminate errors and confusion.

I hope this helps put it all in perspective because you do have the option to either wait for the product to come out and pay for it then, or ask for a refund now and maybe purchase the product later.
 
First, you pre-paid to receive a copy of the T5 rule set when it is released; and not to beta test it.

Third, Marc is being nice enough...This is done so you are not purchasing a T5.5 like many people had to do for the 3.0 rules in D&D.

My understanding was that the CD-ROM was always a beta. Once it is sorted out, Marc will then publish the print version which you will all have to buy again. That is, you are paying to do Marc's work and then he'll ask you to pay again.

The argument that this helps eliminate shoddy rules like other shoddy companies have done, doesn't cut it with me. I pay for things in order to pay for other people's work, not my own. If the company can't get it right by themsleves, then I don't buy it, or I feel ripped off if I accidentally did. How many here would want to pay for Mongoose publications, do all their proof-reading for them, and then pay again for the second edition? Not many. But somehow it's different in this case.

I have absolutely no qualms with people paying for this with their eyes open. I also have no problems with Marc doing this if he can get away with it! I'm not saying he's misleading anyone, or is practicing in shady deals. All I initially pointed out was that it's pretty funny when you look at it; Someone gets other people to do his development, charges them for it and then charges them again for the final product. For instance, isn't this one thing the World goes mad about with respect to Microsoft's software?
 
I have absolutely no qualms with people paying for this with their eyes open. I also have no problems with Marc doing this if he can get away with it! I'm not saying he's misleading anyone, or is practicing in shady deals. All I initially pointed out was that it's pretty funny when you look at it; Someone gets other people to do his development, charges them for it and then charges them again for the final product. For instance, isn't this one thing the World goes mad about with respect to Microsoft's software?

I guess it all depends on the "doing Marc's work for him" that really is what is being called in to question.

It seems to be your opinion that this is the case. It's their opinion it isn't and if it is they don't care either way. *shrug*

Is it silly in the Microsoft sorta way? I have to say yup too.

But as they say,

to each their own.

And as long as Marc ONLY puts in what he intends to put in and not what his newfound helpers want put in so that it isn't some hod podge of multiple MTUs instead of an advancement of the OTU by Marc Himself then all should be well and good.

Otherwise it will be yet again, just another waste of time - with no offense to Marc intended - even if it isn't a kitbashed MTU it still could end up being a complete waste of time - until we reach the endgame of this endeavor we won't know for sure.

Jerry
 
Last edited:
Given Marc's prior performance, it's doubtful that forum participation, even in the pre-pay forum, will have much, if any, beneficial effect.
 
I didn't want to flat out say something like that since I have for many years tried to remain optimistic about new versions of Marc's game. Nonetheless, even with my optimism I can't argue with your sentiments and I must resolve myself to the fact that your's is the correct historical and likely future realism.

:nonono:


Jerry
 
Traveller has languished for a long while, but that is as much the fault of the fan base as the material released in the last decade. T5 is the hope of a new dawn.

I started Traveller in the early 1980s. While my collection is not complete, I do have lots and lots of stuff, including many Group One, FASA, and Judges Guild releases for Traveller. I have all of the GDW and DGP material, and more. I once published The Imperium Staple fanzine and am credited (along with 100 other folks) in the MegaTraveller ruleset.

I say all that to say that the coming of T5 is exciting to me. I am no longer the RPGer I once was (I am mostly a board gamer and hang out on boardgamegeek.com nowadays), but introducing Traveller to my children has been tentative to date, due to their age.

Having a new ruleset in T5, possibly one in which I don't have to mish-mash CT, MT, and my own stuff together is tantalizing. My oldest son is almost at the age when I first discovered Traveller. Perhaps there will be an in-print, coherent, up-to-date, ruleset to hand him.

Marc is welcome to my $35 no matter what happens. If nothing else, the joys of the past are worth more than that.

Cheers,
Herb
 
Marc is welcome to my $35 no matter what happens. If nothing else, the joys of the past are worth more than that.

Cheers,
Herb


I couldn't agree more; money well spent for the years of gaming, camradery and friendship. I hate to admit it, but there have been nights where I have spent more than that in a bar and was left with nothing but a hangover for memories the next day.
 
I couldn't agree more; money well spent for the years of gaming, camradery and friendship. I hate to admit it, but there have been nights where I have spent more than that in a bar and was left with nothing but a hangover for memories the next day.

While I understand this sentiment, I can't agree with it, perhaps because I'm really cheap. I pay for product. Granted, my paying up front implies belief that T5 will be worth the value.
 
Given Marc's prior performance, it's doubtful that forum participation, even in the pre-pay forum, will have much, if any, beneficial effect.

Hmmmm. Not all of us feel entitled to foist our own agendas off on a designer. And yet, that still doesn't mean that input is irrelevent. What it means is that a designer owns the product, and in the final analysis is the one obligated to put their name on it to stand or fail. Marc's prior performance suggest that he's willing to work on stuff within his ramework, and if it veers outside of that, the response is "no thank you"; unfortunately, the response (at least in the gaming community) tends to be very hostile to hearing, essentially, a rejection for cause.

Honestly, there's a level of entitledness in some fans that is little short of pathological sometimes -and internet forums do tend to concentrate them.

Look at it this way. You sell houses; You're painting your next potential house green and have a few friends over to help, I offer to help..you say sure..
then I say, "I looked at the color swatches you wanted help deciding on, but the issue isn't the color, its the front yard..you need to zeroscape it. It'll never sell"

You say "I'm painting my house, not remaking the yard; I want to sell it, and I don't think the yard is the issue.";

I say "no, this is what needs changing, I walk by it every week, and am sick of looking at it; so who would ever want to buy a house with a lousy yard, regardless of the color ".

You say..."well, I do sell houses for a living, and I thinnk I know what it needs, plus, this is what I budgeted and planned for"

I say " No, that was then, this is now, you're out of touch selling the same house as ever whereas I'm a house customer, or will be someday, and I know what i want, and since I'm smart and clever, I'm sure that thats the opinion of todays house buyers"

You say" No, I want to paint my house, thats what everyone is here for, they think it looks good, plus, not everyone wants a zeroscaped lawn; in fact its kind of niche feature"
I say,"then your helpers are a bunch of toady fanboy syncophants who only tell you what you want to hear, and idiots for volunteering to help for free; and the buyers you've worked with before are clearly idiots or boring old farts, and do'nt deserve consideration. me, I've been walking by your house for years now, and you have to redo the yard, I'm a gardener, and I know your garden is wrong, and BTW, the house needs to be lavender, and you have to add a second story. Did I mention that i am a gradener ? And an art critic.
You say, "My house my project, my choice, and what I'm doing is painting it green, after all, it's mine, i know it is, cause I get the mortgage bills until I sell it maybe you should work on selling your houuse the way you want to sell it ?"

and then...
I insult your planning and organization skills, your elitist attitude, your lickspittle helpers,( who I start arguments with) denounce your painting plan, your garden, and single story design, point out that your car is ugly, too, as is your dog; write an angry letter to the newspaper about your tyranny and unwillingness to listen to critics, tell every passer-by you have no interest in feedback from a professional, and are out of touch with the gardening and painting community, start up a bitter blog about how I now hate the site of your house, and then erect a sign overlooking the main road announcing that your house sucks and no one should ever buy it..

You end up standing there with a green paint bucket and brush, your hair blown back like the Coyote in a roadrunner cartoon wondering...what just happened ?

The fact that this is often done to unreleased rules, which is the equivalent of doing all the above over the phone, makes it even more remarkable.

And the punchline is, if it turns out that if you are a crappy painter.... you have problems selling the house...but I'm all comfortable still living in a broken down camper in my grandparents back lot.
 
Ooooh, lickspittle. Now there's a great word that doesn't get enough use. Thanks!


Heh. you are more than welcome...I can honestly also say that I don't get enough opportunities to use it, too....it's just great to use in ia rant, particulalry when one is already frothing...

:)
 
That was a good read Captain. Of course what could also happen is that once the house is on the market, everyone says, "Why the hell did he paint it green?!"
 
That was a good read Captain. Of course what could also happen is that once the house is on the market, everyone says, "Why the hell did he paint it green?!"


...and if it fails, that'll be the default reason every one hears about, as I spread the news that the HOUSE SUXXORS TEH WORST!

.....with no-one paying attention to the fact that there was a huge fetid dead carcass rotting into a pool of putrid fly and maggot infested slime in the crawlspace under the house, exuding a reeking malevolent stomach-turning stench into every single room of the house, causing instant projectile vomiting and explosive intestinal discharge in anyone who entered the house, let alone bought it........

Right. It was the color. You can bet I'll never paint a house green.

By the way, what should I do with this sickening pile of decaying chicken entrails and old lunchmeat ?
 
Back
Top