Marc investigated a 2D mechanic for Traveller5 early on, going as far as creating parallel task pages. He did this specifically because of the CT preference for 2D. He decided that it didn't give him the range he wanted.
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T5 - 2D Higher Is Better
- Thread starter Supplement Four
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Marc investigated a 2D mechanic for Traveller5 early on, going as far as creating parallel task pages. He did this specifically because of the CT preference for 2D. He decided that it didn't give him the range he wanted.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
What's interesting is that, although the multi-dice does have more range than the 11 results from the 2D, the multi-dice aren't as wide-ranging as one would expect. Realizing this was how I figured out how to crack the 2D puzzle.
The more dice thrown, the flatter the distribution. With many dice, you end up with several in the middle. There's not as much spread with the dice in the middle.
With the 2D conversion, one data point is used for several that are clustered together with the multi dice T5 system. That's why the 2D system can deliver results that are within 10% of the T6 system. When you throw 6D, there are 31 possible data points. When you throw 2D, there are only 11 possible data points. But the 2D results can be spread across the results of the 6D distribution because the 6D distribution has most of the data points clustered around the midpoint.
Take a look at the dice charts on pages 26-27. See the mid-point on the 6D table? Results 20, 21, and 22 are all the same. A 9% chance.
So, those results are all duplicate.
Then, the spread from there is very small. If you roll 23, that's just a 1% difference from rolling 22. Rolling 24 is just a 1% difference from rolling 23.
Here's the breakdown on 6D
6-12 are all a less than 1% chance. 6 is just as likely, for all practical purposes, as rolling a 12. These seven data points could be represented by a single number.
13-14 are both at the 2% mark. Both could be represented by a single number.
20-22 are at the 9% mark. All three could be represented by a single number.
28-29 are at the 2% mark. Those could be a single number.
30-36 are all less than 1%. Those seven could all be a single number.
MY POINT
If you roll 2D, you get 11 results, and all 11 are practical results.
If you roll 6D, you get 31 results, but 21 of those results can be combined into just 5 results. Meaning: Rolling 6D only delivers 15 practical results.
Therefore, the increased range you get from rolling multi-dice really isn't as wide as one would expect.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Which is why 3d is the sweet spot, 16 results each of which is also a practical result.
The other advantage to a 3d system is you get a better bell curve (normal distribution), and small DMs can have a noticeable affect. So skill levels of 1-3 and other DMs of between 1-3 can have a major influence on outcome.
But there is something that just feels right about rolling 2d when playing Traveller
The other advantage to a 3d system is you get a better bell curve (normal distribution), and small DMs can have a noticeable affect. So skill levels of 1-3 and other DMs of between 1-3 can have a major influence on outcome.
But there is something that just feels right about rolling 2d when playing Traveller
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
But there is something that just feels right about rolling 2d when playing Traveller
Agreed. 2d6 is Traveller, the way d20, AC, and Hit Points are "D&D".
Well, we tried it last night. It was strange going back to just 2D after playing with nD for some months. I'm not sure if we'll stick with it, we'll chat about it over the next few days, and the next game is in a couple of weeks so there's not rush just yet.
As for 2D being Traveller - it's just dice rolls mate, that's all. IMO Traveller is far more the 3I and spending a week or so in J-space and the local and world governments interface through the nobility with the 3I. However, if when you play you prefer to roll 2D, 3D, D20, or 2.25D8 then fill you boots and enjoy the game :]
For me it's the probabilities that make it. Trav may need to switch out of the D6 mode to attract modern RPG'ers...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Switch to what? GDW tried a d10 based system in T2300, and then moved TNE across to their d20 rules.
T20 tried marrying Traveller to OGL d20, and then there are the GURPS and Hero Traveler experiments.
FATE Traveller?
T20 tried marrying Traveller to OGL d20, and then there are the GURPS and Hero Traveler experiments.
FATE Traveller?
A D20 or D%. Like most other popular RPG's.
It's all just maths, it doesn't matter what's rolled as long as the game itself is enjoyable and engaging! A crappy game setting with amazing and flashy dice to roll is still a crappy game.
At this point I'm talking marketing. Most people (<30) couldn't do math if their life depended on it. It is a familiarity thing (mktg) to use D20, etc. As long time Trav players we aren't the demo for expanding the game into the mainstream RPG'ers.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Well, you're used to one thing. Play that for several months. Then switch. You'd have to give it some time for people to get used to it--three to five sessions sounds about right.
But, it is your game. Use what fits your taste.
On the one hand, it all is just dice and math. But, I don't agree that it doesn't matter. Too many people prefer a higher is better system. And, some of us reject non-2D systems for Traveller. I hated the fact that TNE went to d10, and even back then, I used a 2D system instead.
It wasn't because of the math. It was because of what I said earlier. Some games get a "fee". And "atmosphere" about them. With D&D, it is character levels, Hit Points, multiple types of dice for a lot of things but the d20 for attacks. You can change it a bit, as when 3E D&D flipped the AC to where higher is better. That was accepted. And, non-weapon proficiencies were accepted and accepted again when they were turned into Skills. The introduction of Feats were accepted.
But, D&D still felt like D&D no matter if you were playing 1E AD&D or the newest 5th Edition.
Traveller, to me, feels like 2D, in the same vein. I reject TNE, T-Hero, T20, and GT because those games have a very different feel. MT feels like CT. From what I've seen, MGT feels a lot like MT and CT.
The T5 mechanic doesn't fit.
(Of course, there are other things I dislike about it besdies the "feel" issue.)
I disagree completely, totally, and vehemently. I'll use 2D6 when I'm playtesting adventures or trying to get a feel for rules, but for my own games I use D20s and D100s. If I was stuck somwhere with only D6s at hand, I'd use three of them.
The only good thing that can be said for 2D6 is that it's better than 1D6.
Traveller is a set of tropes. If the die resolution system allows for the emulation of those tropes, it is, or can be, Traveller. If the setting embody those tropes, it is, or can be, Traveller.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I used to run a sic fi game for a group that hated Traveller because of its 2d6 - they were fans of polyhedral dice.
So I stole from cortex and used d4, d6, d8, d10 and d12 for skills, characteristics and damage dice.
They loved it...
My latest project is hacking 5e D&D into some semblance of Traveller.
So I stole from cortex and used d4, d6, d8, d10 and d12 for skills, characteristics and damage dice.
They loved it...
My latest project is hacking 5e D&D into some semblance of Traveller.
TNE wasn't d10. It was 1d20 for success, with d6's for damage.
T2K 2.0 was 1d10, but T2k 2.2 was 1d20. either with d6's for damage.
They all work better when the damage dice are d10s instead of d6's...
I dislike the roll low aspect of TNE.
But not as much as I dislike the stat-emphasis.
Nor as much as I dislike the d6's for damage (due to verisimilitude issues with small caliber handguns).
Nor as much as I dislike the setting change.
I don't mind the d20 at all.
The multi-die-roll low, however, has a number of issues...
1. the slowing down of task rolling due to having to wait.
2. the inability to easily handle open-ended tests. (eg: Roll Xenology, and tell me how hard a difficulty you made...)
3. the clumsy handling of uncertain tasks.
4. the bell curves making stats even more vital than in TNE
5. the roll high mode.
As for higher is better... my statistically valid, but not very well targeted, and not properly documented, informal surveys of 5th & 6th graders have a bias towards roll high. between 65 and 75% in every class. (The computer with the raw data is nonfunctional at the moment.) After about 150 students asked, I was well aware of the pattern. These kids are largely untainted by experience with RPG's...
Ask them to play a card game where the lower card wins, they have trouble. Ask them to play the same game, but where the high card wins, and they don't.
Perceptual issues are huge. Even tho' the odds are exactly the same, the experience isn't.
Fully agreed in this point.
Personally, the changesI most disliked in TNE and T4 was the fact that, unlike CT/MT, stats were far more important than skills. I've always seen CT/MT as a skill based game, where stats were usually secondary, something that changed in TNE and latter in T4.
With all the merits S4 suggestion here might have, it still keeps this stat decisive feeling, so not changing this fact.
But that's a matter of personal liking/disliking, not that it makes the game better or worse.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I agree totally about the preference. So, I'm not defending it here--just explaining that the This is Hard rule goes a long way to making skills quite important.
For example, if you've got a Stat-7, Skill-3 character doing a Difficult task, he's got a 92% chance of success with the E-System (and about that with the T5 System).
If you drop skill by just one point, so that the character is Stat-7, Skill-2, doing the same Difficult task, the This Is Hard rule is activated, making the task a Formidable one. And, the chance of success drops to 28%.
92% drops to 28%.
That's a pretty big influence of skill in the system (Either the E-System or similar numbers with the T5 System).
Basically what the rules say, with the TiH rule, is that: Easy tasks require Skill-1. Average tasks require Skill-2. Difficult tasks require Skill-3. Formidable tasks require Skill-4. And so on.
If you don't have the skill requirement for the difficulty of the task, then the task becomes much, much harder.
Another way to say this is: If you haven't learned the expertise to deal with a certain level of problem, then you have a real hard time of succeeding.
Does that not make the influence of skill alive and well in the T5 System (as well as the E-System)?
Heh. This is slightly off topic, and yet perhaps not so much after all. As I have reluctantly been persuaded, Skill-2 corresponds to a professional level of expertise. Yet somehow I feel that a trained professional should be able to deal with difficult tasks. That's why I hire a plumber or a carpenter to fix things for me: to deal with difficult tasks. If I were to adopt this TiH system, I would take it to mean that Skill-1 corresponded to apprentice, Skill-2 to journeyman, Skill-3 to master, and Skill-4 to expert. (I would, of course, house-rule character creation to provide one or more skill-3s for most fully-trained characters).
And then I'd feel compelled to change to 3D6 or D20 or D100 for skill resolution. :devil:
Hans
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
First, I remember TNE actually using the full range of polyhedra and not just D20 and D6. But that is beside the point that was being made.
Have any of you examined how Mongoose handles the High Stat issue? Die modifiers instead of straight stat value effect. 9-11 is +1, 12-14 +2, 15 +3, low stats have penalties of similar value.
Seems to me to be a reasonable compromise, still allows high stats to have meaning while not overwhelming skills. Especially when you use the non-skilled negatives.
Have any of you examined how Mongoose handles the High Stat issue? Die modifiers instead of straight stat value effect. 9-11 is +1, 12-14 +2, 15 +3, low stats have penalties of similar value.
Seems to me to be a reasonable compromise, still allows high stats to have meaning while not overwhelming skills. Especially when you use the non-skilled negatives.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Coming from a CT perspective, different skill levels means different levels of expertise. Skill-2 in Engineering is not necessarily equivalent to a Skill-2 Navigator.
But to this point that you make:
That's pretty much how CT defined the Medical skill. Skill-1 is basic knowledge in the field. Skill-2 is a skilled nurse or paramedic. Skill-3 is a doctor, and so on.
One of the things I dislike about the Mongoose system (and all standardized task systems, for that matter) is that a +1 to EDU is a +1 to everything covered by that stat.
A +1 to DEX is a +1 to Dancing as well as manual Piloting as well as firing a pistol. All three are very different skills.
A +1 EDU helps the character with being a Lawyer, Historian, and Writer.
I don't think, if you go to Law school, that is helps you write best sellers or know the particulars of the Barbarian invasions of Rome. Yet the stat increase does help in all those areas.
Yes. Law school should net one a Law 2 (or 3 depending on version) and not a +1 to EDU stat.
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