T20 or D20?

[GKar]

I've tried starting a few Traveller games online, I really like the universe, but one of the problems I have is finding players. The main reason seems that they aren't that keen on spending money on the books. In truth, I can't really blame them. It seems harsh to spend at least $30 just for a game that may or may not get off the ground.

Which brings me to my quandary, D20 Modern and Future are free.

My thoughts then were to use the Traveller Universe, which is massive, excellently organized and a great place to run adventures; and just use the D20 rule set.

Immediately though I come across problems since there are none of the Traveller aliens, the starships are fairly massively different as are the weapons.

So, what is everyone else's advice? What sort of game should I try to run?

 

[mbrinkhues]

Multiple options in decending order:

a) Get T20

The changes in the damage and hitpoint system as well as the vehicle rules alone are worth the money. Far better IMHO than the D20 stuff. And at least look at Gateway to Destiny, the settings book for T20, no matter what system you choose

b) Get the MT CD-ROM

Older Systems but there you get the complete set of rules and adventures. The second edition is out/should soon come out. MT is basically a fixed and compiled CT with some updates. There was quite a bit of errata for the printed version (Still available on the Net).

c) Get the CT rules compilation

All books and supplements for Classic Traveller in two large binders. Granted, the rules are old and a bit cluncky and scattered over multiple documents. But quite a few people still use them

d) Get GURPS Traveller

If you are already into GURPS (3rd Ed) than the E-Books of their Traveller Version are nice. This is the most cohesive univers since it is based on the third edition (TNE) of Traveller and some 20+ years of prior refining. But ONLY recommended if you alread play GURPS, otherwise it get's costly and complex (GURPS Basic Rules are 4th Ed. now)

e) Try to find TNE

The last of GDW (Game Designers Workshop - The original Traveller Writers) Traveller variants. I like the system (Being a Twilight/Merc GM) but the background is so-so. If you track down the rules (No reprints IIRC) also get the 1248 Supplements.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

As A referee, I use T20, but also use d20 future/Modern/Past. I tend to merge them, taking things that work for me from each.

Some of the things in d20 work really well, like the alien species format, the campaign formats, it also has a lot of good, solid basic ideas and elements from several games I used to enjoy all in one package (Gamma World, Star Frontiers)

But, t20, when backed up by all the awesome CT materials (and things like Gurps/MT for additional background info and ideas) and the many excellent online sources of astrogation maps, etc. makes it a good basis for a game. I find the automated programs that fans have made (like Heaven and Earth or High Guard Shipyard) make gammastering Traveller a lot more manageable operationally.

There are only subtle differences in mechanics like skills, hit points, but ultimately the games compliment each other nicely.

 

[Rover]

I have never gamed online. I prefer Face to face.

as for rules I really love T20. But if your players are leary to plonk down the big $$ for a rule book. Would the T20 Lite rules work for you?

It is a free download at: http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/catalog/pview.pl?action=view&stocknum=elib0000&h=header_ea&s=

Players can use it and decide later if they want the full book.

R

 

[GKar]

Thanks for all the comments people, keep them coming.

Just to clarify, I have the T20 rules but the players tend not to want to spend the money for them and since I'm not seeing them face to face, they'd have to buy them as well. D20 is free (in SRD form) so most of them are happier to go with that.

Unfortunately, living way out in the boondocks of Australia finding gamers to play with face to face is not an easy task. I've looked at Traveller lite but with only one class available (the Merchant) it's kind of limited.

 

[Rover]

The Lite rules cover abilities, skills, feats, combat and some other general aspects of the game.

Aside from Character generation it pretty much covers what you need to run a game. Maybe you as the GM could Pregenerate the characters with input from the players. It may not be perfect, but if you as the GM have the main rulebook and the players have lite it should be playable.

R

 

[BetterThanLife]

Why do the players need the books? If you are using dedicated Internet RPG software, especially with automated character sheets, such as Klooge or GRiP, only the GM needs the book. For character creation, you can use PCGen with the T20 ruleset. Then if the game gets going, and they want to buy rulebooks they can.

The T20 rules are well written and do a very good job of giving you the feel of CT using the D20 base rules.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Any source/link to the PCGen T20 sets?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Any source/link to the PCGen T20 sets?

You have to join the Yahoo group.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/T20_PCGEN/

 

[BetterThanLife]

Once you have your characters created for the campaign, you can create sector and subsector maps using Galactic or Heaven and Earth and the SEC file for the part of the galaxy your Traveller campaign is taking place in. (Maps are easy to send using Klooge and fairly easy using GRiP.) You can send them the sec files so they can look up UWP's of planets themselves, and use one of the online Library Data archives for general background information.

 

[BetterThanLife]

One other point, if you go the Klooge or GRiP route, I have the character sheets already done for running a T20 campaign in both of them.

 

[redwalker]

T20 is usable, but I've recently seen Spycraft 2.0, which eliminates a lot of d20 crud.

Spycraft 2.0 is better designed, better tested, better edited, etc.

Spycraft 2.0 is intended for use with modern-day superspies, but it has a section on how to tweak it.

Another alternative would be to use Space 1889. It's practically the same rules as Classic Traveller. It might be hard to find, however.

The whole discussion might be obsolete in another month if Marc Miller suddenly drops an awesome-bomb on us with T5... here's hoping.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Red Walker:
T20 is usable, but I've recently seen Spycraft 2.0, which eliminates a lot of d20 crud.

Spycraft 2.0 is better designed, better tested, better edited, etc.

I'd disagree obviously

The whole discussion might be obsolete in another month if Marc Miller suddenly drops an awesome-bomb on us with T5... here's hoping.

In a month? Not very likely at all.


Hunter

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by Red Walker:
T20 is usable, but I've recently seen Spycraft 2.0, which eliminates a lot of d20 crud.

Spycraft 2.0 is better designed, better tested, better edited, etc.

Spycraft 2.0 is intended for use with modern-day superspies, but it has a section on how to tweak it.

If it is still as rampantly schitzo as 1.0 was, I'm not even slightly interested. Test all you want. Without a clear goal, you're doomed regardless.

"Better edited"? This IS AEG we're talking about, right?

T20 has a few rough edges, many of which are related to the D20 license it was released under. Some are ergonomic, some conscious decision, and a few are purely mechanical. It's still the best "hard" adaption of D20 I've seen.

The whole discussion might be obsolete in another month if Marc Miller suddenly drops an awesome-bomb on us with T5... here's hoping.

Yeah, "here's hoping" the release doesn't do more harm than good.

 

[drmike]

I have to agree with BTL. Players don't need the rules except for chargen. I have been running a T20 game using Klooge for several months now and none of the players have the books. If they have questions they just ask me. Without the players getting wrapped up in the rules it allows them to play more and quote rules less.

On a side note I'm a terrible typist and we use Xfire as a VoIP client to talk real time while using Klooge for maps, images, and combat. So far it has worked really well.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
T20 has a few rough edges, many of which are related to the D20 license it was released under. Some are ergonomic, some conscious decision, and a few are purely mechanical. It's still the best "hard" adaption of D20 I've seen.

After Refereeing a T20 campaign for 2 years I ran into two issues. (And I saw them before they affected the game.) Big ship combat has major issues. The dual scale for vehicle sizes is an additional one. (The TA's vs. the THB.) is the other. Just bear in mind that deadly combat is indeed deadly, very quickly. Non-deadly combat will last for days. So if you shoot someone they tend to get seriously wounded in a hurry, but you can have an epic (The Quiet Man comes immediately to mind) brawl.(It isn't quite as bad as CT, where whoever gets hit first loses, but it is close.)

 

[hunter]

Suggestions on fixes? Not the deadly part (don't want to change that ), but on the dual scale for vehicle sizes and non-lethal combat. Ship combat I am working on to a degree. I just reposted my working High Guard20 rules back in the Moot.

(BTW love the Quiet Man reference! One of my favorite movies)

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Red Walker:
[qb] T20 is usable, but I've recently seen Spycraft 2.0, which eliminates a lot of d20 crud.

Spycraft 2.0 is better designed, better tested, better edited, etc.

Spycraft 2.0 is intended for use with modern-day superspies, but it has a section on how to tweak it.

If it is still as rampantly schitzo as 1.0 was, I'm not even slightly interested. Test all you want. Without a clear goal, you're doomed regardless.</font>[/QUOTE]Without a clear goal, eh? I'm not TOO sure what you are getting at, but I will say this much: Spycraft 2.0 benefited from a lot of introspection and rethinking. It is an excellent iteration of D20 in several veins.

"Better edited"? This IS AEG we're talking about, right?

Touche.

However, in answer to the question, no. Spycraft 2.0 is now under the care of Crafty Games. The first printing was under AEG and had some errata. The second printing will be out in June, will fix all that, and the errata that has emerged since then is short. (If you want it in PDF, the second printing is available now.)

Anyways, I have toyed with the thought of taking Traveller D20 chargen careers and snapping in Spycraft classes. But that's a lot of work.

Getting away from the major ports, I think Spycraft has a lot to offer. For my T20 game I will be running at GenCon, I fully intend to borrow the chase rules and other dramatic conflict rules. That should be a fairly painless port.

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by Frank Mikes:
I've tried starting a few Traveller games online, I really like the universe, but one of the problems I have is finding players. The main reason seems that they aren't that keen on spending money on the books.
(...)
So, what is everyone else's advice? What sort of game should I try to run?

Do you know the players in question already? Or are you going to be canvassing for potential players?

You are right that D20 Modern is better recognized; this is something I was weighing in considering my own PBP. T20 is close enough that you could do better. Some parts of T20 (autofire and ship combat are two that come to mind) are WAY better than D20 Modern future.

I considered letting players make characters with D20 Modern/Future (perhaps porting some T20 chargen material, e.g., making the classes into advanced classes) and then using the good stuff in T20 on the "back end".

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by Psion:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GypsyComet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Red Walker:
[qb]
Spycraft 2.0 is intended for use with modern-day superspies, but it has a section on how to tweak it.

If it is still as rampantly schitzo as 1.0 was, I'm not even slightly interested. Test all you want. Without a clear goal, you're doomed regardless.</font>[/QUOTE]Without a clear goal, eh? I'm not TOO sure what you are getting at, but I will say this much: Spycraft 2.0 benefited from a lot of introspection and rethinking. It is an excellent iteration of D20 in several veins.
</font>[/QUOTE]Spycraft 1.0 could not decide if it wanted to be 007 or the TV version of Mission Impossible. The class and feat needs of the two are very different, but SC 1.0 kept avoiding the issue both in the crunch and in the advice for running a game, and produced quite a mess as a result.

That the system also had issues dealing with the rare combination of the two didn't help. The superspy genre is rather hard on supporting characters (watch the bodycount in Ronin, for example), but if *everyone* is as script-immune as the lead, it stops being "superspies" and turns into Charlie's Angels or the A-Team.