T20 Drednaughts? What is the point?

[BetterThanLife]

I was doing some number crunching in our discussion of fighters and I noticed something. On the bigger ships with spinal mounts in Combat, with Sensors, Meson Screens and Agility being equal there is no real benefit to a Drednaught. A Light Cruiser with a Factor J Meson Spinal Mount is just as likely to kill a Drednaught with one shot as a Drednaught is to kill a Light Cruiser with one shot. (About 55% chance.) Since you can buy 4-6 Light Cruisers for the cost of one Drednaught, which will give you a significant advantage in a fight, what is the reason to build Drednaughts? 4 Light Cruisers Vs 2 Drednaughts Statistically both Dreds will be destroyed for one CL dmamged and one destroyed. Economically you lost 8 times the cost of the damage you inflicted! Not a smart way to fight a war. (Especially since you can build CLs much faster than DNs.)

Am I missing something?

 

[Dom]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I was doing some number crunching in our discussion of fighters and I noticed something. On the bigger ships with spinal mounts in Combat, with Sensors, Meson Screens and Agility being equal there is no real benefit to a Drednaught. A Light Cruiser with a Factor J Meson Spinal Mount is just as likely to kill a Drednaught with one shot as a Drednaught is to kill a Light Cruiser with one shot. (About 55% chance.) Since you can buy 4-6 Light Cruisers for the cost of one Drednaught, which will give you a significant advantage in a fight, what is the reason to build Drednaughts? 4 Light Cruisers Vs 2 Drednaughts Statistically both Dreds will be destroyed for one CL dmamged and one destroyed. Economically you lost 8 times the cost of the damage you inflicted! Not a smart way to fight a war. (Especially since you can build CLs much faster than DNs.)

Am I missing something?

Nope.

You've just stated a variant on the Battleship / Battle Tender argument!

Dreadnoughts and Battleships are questionable - their main benefit is the bulk (plus all those nice 2ndries for fly swatting). Bear in mind you can get a 20kT BR package with a Type T Meson gun in (nearer 30kdT for a bit more surviveable).

The other major flaw is when people don't bother with a secondary bridge..

 

[mike wightman]

I think the to hit bonus due to USP needs revising for spinal mounts.

In HG the large PAWs are much more accurate than similar sized meson guns, a difference that isn't present in T20. Because meson guns ignore armour and therefore roll against a lower AC to hit they are usually more accurate against heavily armoured, and meson screened, opponents. Perhaps meson guns should have a minus 4(or greater) penalty on to hit rolls or the AR for the meson screen should be doubled, or both .

I also think the 16 dice of fixed damage should be dropped in favour of A=10 dice damage, B=11 etc, up to the damage ceiling to make the lower rated spinals less effective.

Mind you, in HG a 19700t light cruiser can be built at TL15 with the afore mentioned #J meson for 13,500 MCr. One Tigress costs 362,721MCr. Which fleet would you prefer, one dreadnaught or twenty six cruisers? And that #J, if it hits, will cause ten rolls on the interior explosion table, mission killing the dreadnaught the same as in your T20 example.

 

[flykiller]

Am I missing something?

nope. you got it exactly right. (I assume you're referring to HG2 tech level 15?)

basically HG2 is a quick and dirty ruleset that provides a decent background for a roleplaying game (like, say, traveller) but that breaks down if it is treated as a formal wargame. internally the crunch point is in the normal damage tables, which apply crippling results equally regardless of weapon size or target size - the critical hit rules are merely decorative and serve only to stir the wreckage around a bit. the fact that the meson screen defenses are all-or-nothing doesn't help either. externally the crunch point is HG2 has no sensor rules or ranges. there is no possibility of maneuver or tactics, everybody just lines up and blasts away. all this comes together to create a situation where big ships are big targets and little ships are little targets, and that's it.

other rulesets are available, you'll see them discussed on this board. you can also design your own rules - I'm quite happy with mine and they work well so far in my games.

 

[aramis]

T20 isn't (exactly) HG2.

As for house rules, the rule that we playtested for spinals was in fact 1 die per USP to a max of 16d (G or higher USP).

There is a design theory that says, Pick your biggest fieldable weapon, wrap the smallest hull around it you can, and install just enough other stuff to make it work.

Since T20 is both a hit point AND a "Death By Crits" system, well... Larger T20 ships can take FAR MORE damage before destruction, but are little better at resisting multiple volleys. (Since any penetrating hit sends one to the criticals table for system damage).

Early playtests used straight "Tons of Damage" and all penetrating hits resulted in systemic damage... I still prefer that mode (but I was outvoted, as it were).

A quick fix for making the bigger ships have meaning: No hit doing internal damage less than 1% of the hit points generates a critical. (This also means fighters can destroy you, but not wear down your systems... unless they group to squadrons.)

(Due to T20's mechanics, at present, find your squadron configuration which has the same or one more USP than the defense, then organize your fighters to that... and you will strip away a system rating per turn per "Squadron". Fighters are far more flexible than ships, due to the reconfiguarbility of squadrons. Fighters have massive crit possibility.)

 

[mike wightman]

Did anyone suggest giving each component its own SI rating, like advanced vehicle combat, and then degrade system performance as fractions of the SI are removed?

 

[BetterThanLife]

The Reason I picked Factor J is that with a standard gunner and crew against an agility 6, Meson screen 9 and anything besides a Dispersed structure or a Buffered planetoid is an automatic hit. With a 55% chance to Crit (Meson weapons crit on a 15 and spinal mounts lower that number by 5.) An average hit (16D20 + 16D12) is 168+104=272 The Crit multiplier is 10. That is 2720!!! A Million Ton Starship has an SI of 1000. (+100 per additional Million tons.) It would take an 8 million ton starship to survive tne hit if and only if you ignore the radiation damage. Pick the most efficient Spinal Meson gun above J for your tech level. There is no reason to carry Spinal T. A typical Drednaught has between 750 and 825 SI. Ignoring the Radiation damage that is still (Until you get to 500,000 tons which is SI=825) twice the SI of the ship. If a Vessel takes twice its SI in damage it is Vaporized. Forget about internal damage, it doesn't matter. Forget about fighters they don't count, Forget about Battleriders they need a tender, (which still gets destroyed with one crit.) The biggest ship in the Navy should be a Cruiser. (Only because there are other things to do than kill Capital Ships.) The Atlantic is the biggest ship any Navy needs. And it can get by with a smaller spinal mount. Your ship of the Line is a Light Cruiser.

According to the Battlerider Doctrine a Ship without Jump Drives can ton for ton defeat a ship of similar size with jump drives. With these combat rules it doesn't matter. A 30KTon Light Cruiser is every bit as effective in combat as a 30KTon Battlerider and doesn't require a tender and a 6 ship Cruron of CLs is cheaper than a Batron of 6 riders plus tender.

With High Guard fighting a fleet action Light Cruisers tended to get swatted in a hurry and Drednaughts tended to survive, but get beat up against anything short of a Drednaught. Under the T20 system The mid-range Meson Spinal Mount is king. The more of them that you can field the better your chances. Will you lose ships? Of course you will but when you can take out ships that cost 4-6 times what yours do, and can be built in about half the time, who cares?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually the only way to successfully attack a Capital ship with fighters is to have them all armed with a single Fusion gun, Have lots and lots of them, (See my comments on Useful Fighters.) Pray that enough of them get close enough to fire then swamp the sand casters by having them all attack independently and pray for Crits. You will likely nickle and dime it to death, if you have around 400 fighters for each Cruiser, provided that the Cruiser has no more than a 5g Drive. Otherwise the Cruiser can hold the distance open while the Missile bays clear the sky of your fighters. A Cruiser can typically kill 100 fighters in 4-5 rounds. You have a lot of space to cover to get to Fusion gun range. Good luck.

(None of the other weapons offer enough damage to scratch the paint of a Cruiser on a per fighter basis and grouping your fighters means you need that many more to even get through the defenses. I guess if you unloaded with Factor 3 laser heads you might manage some damage, but you better have alot of them. Between the sand, the point defense lasers and the nuclear dampers, you might get in 2 D8 for 1/2 of the laserheads beyond the number of point defense lasers and sandcasters. Provided with your pitiful sensors you can even target the Cruiser.

Originally posted by Aramis:
T20 isn't (exactly) HG2.

A quick fix for making the bigger ships have meaning: No hit doing internal damage less than 1% of the hit points generates a critical. (This also means fighters can destroy you, but not wear down your systems... unless they group to squadrons.)

(Due to T20's mechanics, at present, find your squadron configuration which has the same or one more USP than the defense, then organize your fighters to that... and you will strip away a system rating per turn per "Squadron". Fighters are far more flexible than ships, due to the reconfiguarbility of squadrons. Fighters have massive crit possibility.)

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by flykiller:


<snip>

other rulesets are available, you'll see them discussed on this board. you can also design your own rules - I'm quite happy with mine and they work well so far in my games.

Have you posted them to the eLibrary?

 

[flykiller]

T20 isn't (exactly) HG2.

sorry, wasn't paying attention

 

[flykiller]

Have you posted them to the eLibrary?

hadn't thought of it - not much citizen interest in the elibrary. 'sides, still have a couple of wrinkles to work out before the players trip over them.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Did anyone suggest giving each component its own SI rating, like advanced vehicle combat, and then degrade system performance as fractions of the SI are removed?

The "Original" T20Playtest combat system did "Tons of Damage" to the System hit. That was scrapped in favor of HP/SI well before the current SI formulae came through, one which was picked up for PP... by either chance, or parralell evolution, or having similar playtester lists....

SI is not a single equation. It's a staggered series of line segments, each with a connection point to the next; or in otherwords, it's multi-formulaic.

Were I to suggest a methodology for separate SI, give each battery an SI rating, and each major component, and put the breakpoints proportion based upon mounts in battery for the batteries, and 1/2 for the major guns (Bays, spinals, each of which is a battery of its own). Other systems, especially motive and Power, SI / (USP+1) per loss. Until a whole block is gone, no loss. Use the formulae for SI for the size of the component.

This WILL toughen many ship designs which cross thresholds....

Light weapon batteries will die FAST if hit, but will be proportionately much harder to kill than larger systems!

I felt Hunter rushed the last bits of the playtest... a lot of bugs weren't quite figured out.

 

[mike wightman]

I like this Aramis, thanks

.
Do you calculate component SI as if it were a hull of that size and what about borrowing the vehicle rule of half damage to hull SI, half to component?

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I like this Aramis, thanks

.
Do you calculate component SI as if it were a hull of that size and what about borrowing the vehicle rule of half damage to hull SI, half to component?

* I * don't. But I'd say, f you're going to do it, do it with each component or battery being a separate hull of its volume. (For Batteries of turrets, this means you figure it ONCE, make a table, and have it for use. Likewise, for bay mounts, you just add the correect number to the table, preferably in pencil. )

Me, I just use the 1% rule: any hit doing less than 1% of the SI of the ship doesn't roll for location, doesn't reduce anything's effective USP. Still knocks off SI.

I miss the tons of damage...

 

[Dom]

Originally posted by Aramis:

Me, I just use the 1% rule: any hit doing less than 1% of the SI of the ship doesn't roll for location, doesn't reduce anything's effective USP. Still knocks off SI.

I miss the tons of damage...

Was this like the alternative damage system in White Dwarf back around issue 60 something?

Dom

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry Aramis,
I should have said "How would you..."

Could you briefly outline the tons of damage system, please.

 

[jfwking]

While waiting for the tonnage based rules to arrive here is another idea which I use to depower the allmighty ship killer meason spinals.

Meson screen is AC and AR, ships AR counts half (round up) against the radiation hit to account for internal compartments/bulkheads/structural strength.

I like my warships to fight each other not get one hit killed, a half million ton warship should take a lot of fire to put down and the enemy fleet should know its been in a fight.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Captain Jonah:
While waiting for the tonnage based rules to arrive here is another idea which I use to depower the allmighty ship killer meason spinals.

Meson screen is AC and AR, ships AR counts half (round up) against the radiation hit to account for internal compartments/bulkheads/structural strength.

I like my warships to fight each other not get one hit killed, a half million ton warship should take a lot of fire to put down and the enemy fleet should know its been in a fight.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Fragging software.

It doesn't help to cut the radiation damage. A Meson Spinal Crits more than it hits. An average roll the 16D20 is 168 points of damage. If it doesn't crit, 45% of the time, that is reduced by the meson screen. If it does crit, 55% of the time that isn't just not reduced but multiplied by 10. 1680 points of damage. A 400,000 Ton Drednaught, (IE the Perisher from TA7) has 825 SI. A ship that is suffers 2 times it's SI is vaporized. A ship that simply has its SI reduced to 0 is NonFunctional nothing will work until repairs are made. An 8,000,000 Ton vessel will survive the hit. (Barely it has SI=1700.) That is without Radiation damage. A factor 9 Meson Bay, only Crits 30% of the time but on a Crit will do 945 regular damage and 585 Radiation damage. (Still enough to kill, outright, a Drednaught. For those people looking for Torpedo Boats with ship killing capability, build destroyers with a pair of Meson Bays, send a bunch after a Batron and watch the Batron go away. (Especially if the Batron is busy with your Capital ships.) With these numbers in mnd a spinal mount isn't as neccessary as I originally thought. How many Meson Bays can you have in a 75,000T Cruiser? You could kill several Capital ships a turn. (Of course you would have to get a little closer but still....)

Build your SDBs inthe 1200-1500 range and givethema Meson Bay. (Even a 50T Factor 4 Meson Bay will averave 680 points on a Crit.) Not quite a whole Drednaught but two of those is enough. 6 SDB per Drednaught and the SDB actually manage to protect the system. (Of course you don't need Meson guns to clean their clocks so the incoming missile barrage would be nasty.)

How is that for a useful fighter. 6 fighters attacking a Dred sink it! (Or is it that these are the equivalent to a PT boat?

 

[The Oz]

This certainly makes T20 ship combat different from CT/HG. In HG meson bays are worthless against ships defended by meson screens. Even a factor-9 meson bay can only penetrate a factor-2 meson screen with a 12 on 2d6. A factor-3 meson screen is invulnerable to meson gun bays (assuming equal computers, of course).