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Starship "hand to hand" combat

robject

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Desiderata

Suppose space combat is supposed to be participatory, and yet should be simple. What can be cooked up?

I think "participatory" should probably mean that every player has something interesting to do.

I don't know what "simple" means, except in casual (call it "first-time") speed of play. Expect people to never play it the second time if it's complicated.

If I ranked preferences, simplicity would get 70% of the grade, and participation would get 30%. So even a system of some initial opaqueness could still be a good system, but complexity turns off the non-hardcore gamer fast.

This could mean a tradeoff between participation and complexity. Some degree of complexity might require less than full participation, since there will be someone who doesn't want to deal with "fiddly rules". Do you think it's an acceptable tradeoff?

I don't.

Examples

For example, CT's starship combat was simple, but it was not very participatory, so it gets a low C.

On the other hand, the "Role Playing Starship Combat System" created independently for T4 was highly participatory, but due to its complexity -- or perhaps sheer length of the rules -- was never used. Despite its power and the consideration and hard work put into it, I'd still flunk it, because my goal is to bring casual gamers back to the table.

Goal

To find or cobble together a ship combat system for Traveller that brings casual gamers back to the table a second and third time.

Is there a "B" or "A" system out there already in the SF gaming world? Is such a system possible?

I think the solution had better fit on two sheets of 8.5 x 11 paper, or else it's in trouble.

Brainstorms

Just consider what makes ship combat fun. The "sub hunt". The chase. Causing damage. Maneuvering. Boarding. Escape.

Consider tasks that players might engage in that are meaningful and interesting.

Consider if adjusting the length (and scope) of turns makes the game more fun.

Consider each player having only one die each, to roll in tasks, for example, or contributing to some other purpose.

Consider damage tables like those in Mercenary's simplified mass combat rules, or the traditional CT/MT/T4 damage tables, or something else.
 
Variable timescale - combat in three phases:

detection/sub-hunt, half hour to hour long turns?

maneuver to weapons range/evasion, possible use of fighters/drones/missiles, ten to fifteen minute turns?

weapons range, minute to five minute turns?

Possible tasks:

maneuver, evade, sensor lock, weapons fire, ECM, ECCM, extra power, damage control, remote pilot...
 
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Detection Chase/Escape Engagement
Pilot x x
Engineer x x x
Astrogator x
Sensor ops x
Gunners x x
Medic x</pre>[/QUOTE]It looks like the engineer is kept awfully busy.

I'm thinking the gunner knows how to repair a gunnery station.

Perhaps it should be easier for people to become wounded during combat.

It may be tricky to keep a role-based system from rules bloat.

Another thing I'm remembering is that every task roll takes time. Dalton's solution to streamline actions (and prevent unrealistic collusion) is for every player to write down his move, and all moves are revealed simultaneously.
 
So, Detection is a contest of wits between the engineer of one ship and the sensor operator of another ship. The goal: detect the other ship first... or get away without being detected.

How many turns should that take? Is it simply a pair of opposed task rolls, with the result being initiative gained? Since there are only (at most) two players involved, maybe it shouldn't last very long.

Then, the Chase is one ship catching up with the other ship, while the other ship seeks to get away, either by fleeing back into obscurity or jumping away. Again, is this simply a pair of task rolls, or a process, or what? Do the gunners come into play here with missiles?


Finally, Engagement is the slug-fest that ensues. Ships blow bits off of each other, while the crews frantically try to repair damage, and the medic frantically tries to repair the crew. I get that part. Its logical conclusion is with a boarding action, which is no longer ship combat.
 
Hi Robject,

Originally posted by robject:
So, Detection is a contest of wits between the engineer of one ship and the sensor operator of another ship. The goal: detect the other ship first... or get away without being detected.


We left that to the sensor operator, that is the navigator on smaller craft. The pilot is too busy and the engineer is coordinating power.

Now the navigator needs to operate the sensors to plot a jump or to ensure they are at the right location for a purchased jump plan.

How many turns should that take? Is it simply a pair of opposed task rolls, with the result being initiative gained? Since there are only (at most) two players involved, maybe it shouldn't last very long.


That depends upon a variety of factors.
Are you assuming that the other vessel is even detected? Even on a military vessel, where a dedicated crew is maintaining a constant vigil, there is a period between the opposing side entering detection range, and the sensor operators determining that it is indeed a item of interest.

If neither side is aware of the other, the tasks are pretty cut and dried.

If one side is aware of the other, the captain may order a variety of techniques. Putting a planet behind them in relation to the opposing faction (over a large distance, the energy signature can be hidden by the larger reflected signature of the item behind them) The sun is can be likewise used.
Ejecting multiple canisters of sand ahead of the ship will cause the incoming active sensor scan to be defracted into multiple directions, while the sand will also defract any of your own heat/energy away from your own vessel.

Going cold, while not perfect, can make a vessel take longer to analyse. Also, putting multiple 'balloon decoys' into the area can cause confusion so that an escape is possible.

If you consider the volume of space that needs to be scaned, and rescaned to ensure that a remote star does not set off the sensors, combined with the 'fuzziness' of the data given that the relitive speeds of the vessels can cause the sensing vessel to question the results until they are double checked.....

Faster computers, better sensors, good skill, complementary tasks, can all simplify the problem, but, all that can be set back by a sensor operator who is suffering from a hangover, or, is overworked due to a understaffed crew.


Then, the Chase is one ship catching up with the other ship, while the other ship seeks to get away, either by fleeing back into obscurity or jumping away. Again, is this simply a pair of task rolls, or a process, or what? Do the gunners come into play here with missiles?


We play this out on lined paper or just on a table with some pennies and a ruler.
I explained our movement system in other threads so I won't re-iterate it here.

The preparation of weapons, setting aside power for agility, using sandcasters to create walls of sensor shadow (and missile damaging to boot). Also, the use of all the techniques of stealth after a sensor lock is failed. (Almost every turn is a fight to keep distance and break sensor lock so that they can make it out to the disengagement distance)



Finally, Engagement is the slug-fest that ensues. Ships blow bits off of each other, while the crews frantically try to repair damage, and the medic frantically tries to repair the crew. I get that part. Its logical conclusion is with a boarding action, which is no longer ship combat.
Ok, this depends on what scale of combat you are playing. With small PC scale ships, it is usually a desparate fight to get back out of dogfight style combat and to take as little damage as possible. My players spend as much time using up thier actions on damage control as they do on offensive actions.
With larger battles (Steve, John and I have been trying them out with our B5 Mini's) it is a fight between the escorts, sorti, picket and mission ships. Each class of vessel has a different overall mission and different tasks come up. We have yet to play with more than one squadron at a time.

Anyways, I am getting off topic. Does any of my comments help?

best regards

Dalton
 
Dalton, thanks for injecting some context into the system. You're right about the various measures to mask one's signature from a hostile sensor. And that explains quite well why there needs to be a different timescale for such operations... moving behind a planet can take a long time.

Point taken with detection phase being primarily a sensor task only... and good suggestions for defensive actions. The sand suggestion is a nice touch.

Your comments are all useful and on-topic. Thanks!

Your comment on scale leads to some speculation as to how to elegantly move combat from PCs to squadrons... to fleets.
 
Originally posted by robject:

Your comments are all useful and on-topic. Thanks!

Your comment on scale leads to some speculation as to how to elegantly move combat from PCs to squadrons... to fleets.
Glad my ramblings are of some use.

Last night was my wife's bible study night. I invited the guys over and we spent the night drinking beer and painting starship trooper bugs.

While we were doing that, we talked about what future space combat would be like. (yea, most guys would talk about girls, sports, etc., at least it was not like last weeks argument over american politics and educational system).

So, at the end of the night, I was up over a hundred painted warrior bugs, and I have some ideas about large scale space combat (squadron level and above).

If you are interested, let me know and we can start a thread group for it.

We would need to have some form of organization to keep it straight.

best regards

Dalton
 
Realistically, Players should do little more than set the tactics... everything else should be handled by the computers. Not fun to play, but fairly realistic.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
Realistically, Players should do little more than set the tactics... everything else should be handled by the computers. Not fun to play, but fairly realistic.
Hi Aramis,

Have you ever worked with expert systems?
I currently work with some extreamly high end computer systems. My background includes systems design for CNC (computer numeric control) and hydrolic robotic arms. Vision control (for defect analysis and arm placement) as well as just in time inventory shipment control.

Given that Traveller postulates that AI does not occur until TL 17, the expert systems that would be available would still be very limited in a highly volitile and unpredictable situation such as combat.

Most computers would cancel out the benefits of opposing computers. Since most of the algolrythms would be known by both sides, the actions of the computers would be the only thing truly predictable and therefore, the computers would be the greatest weakness if relied upon.

Even with the best expert system, it would lack practical experience, since it could not learn from it's own history. A gunner would learn and become the one portion of the equation that could adapt and bring in new or non-predictable tactics.
Even if the pilot of the computer did no more than become a adaptive random seed to spur on the computer, that would make that pilot extreamly valuable.

So, IMHO, I think that in future combat, if both sides are well matched, only the crews actions will act as a deciding factor.

This is where the fun is.

best regards

Dalton
 
If you use the LBB8 Robot brain/computer program capabilities then computers/robot brains at TL12 can learn from experience, they just aren't very bright.
It opens up the interesting idea that ship computers may have learned a few new tricks with age, both from experience and from human experts in ship tactics.
 
I think realism shouldn't be accepted for its own sake, nor should it even be taken at face value. We don't know what computers are capable of in the future one way or the other, and this is a game, after all.

The nice thing about Book 2 is that it allows a nice mix of talent-advantage and technical-advantage. Both can be trumped, and neither guarantee a win. The computer program rules constrain what you can do with a computer, while still doing things we can't currently do with them. I can't see anything wrong with that.
 
It opens up the interesting idea that ship computers may have learned a few new tricks with age, both from experience and from human experts in ship tactics
Now that bucket of bolts may have a few tricks left in her... ;)

Tom
 
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