Standard Starships in THB

[BrennanHawkwood]

I was looking over the 'standard designs' (specifically the starships) in the T20 Traveller's Handbook (and the Errata document covering them) and noticed something I thought was rather odd.

Am I correct from reading this that NONE of those starships have fuel processors and only the Type S even has fuel scoops?



Apparently the scoops are even removed from the Seeker, which supposed to be a modified Scout/Courier.

[edited for typo correction]

 

[far-trader]

Sounds about right. I'm not sure I'd have done them that way but can kind of see the reasoning, presuming it wasn't just an oversight which I suspect it was.

One possible reasoning for some of the cases is you don't want to make it easy for some merchant to skip with a Mcr asset so you make sure they need to fuel up at a starport. Like I said, that works for merchants. It could also work for the seeker, since it wants as much hold space as possible for ore.

Anyway, my own thoughts on why the Type S doesn't have the processor listed is detailed here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000255#000000

And I guess I might as well go ahead and post my rough deckplans from about a year ago now that I have them back thanks to a friend who still had them after my own copies went missing after the harddrive crash (I know I backed them up somewhere )

 

[BetterThanLife]

I thought the Small Craft were even more odd. Since all Small Craft require a bridge and a Bridge includes 2 Acceleration couches, why do all the Small Craft have additional accelleration Couches. (Specifically the Fighter which is listed as a one man craft but has three chairs.

)

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I thought the Small Craft were even more odd. Since all Small Craft require a bridge and a Bridge includes 2 Acceleration couches, why do all the Small Craft have additional accelleration Couches. (Specifically the Fighter which is listed as a one man craft but has three chairs.

)

Yeah...the way T20 (and presumably CT) handles the bridge has bugged me from day 1.

 

[Michael Taylor]

The other reason for no scoops or processor is that in T20 it is not recommended and indeed almost dangerous to scoop for fuel from a gas giant. In CT skimming was just blase - just dip your ship into hurricane force winds and acid rain of a gas giant and get your fill of H. Of course you can easily skim fuel from an ocean - assuming
1) the local govt allows it or doesn't charge the earth for it
2) there is water on the main planet
3) the water isn't underground

But I agree - all streamlined ships should have fuel scoops at least - no tonnage penalty for them.

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

I was looking at these a little more and one of the other things that struck me was that several of the standard starship (and small craft) designs that come with empty turrets and almost no spare EPs for powering any weapon systems that might be installed.

For many of these designs, it leaves missile racks and sandcasters as the only viable weapons to add to a standard design 'after market'. Anything else is either going to require an upgrade to the Power Plant unless the you want the ship to be seriously underpowered.

A couple of examples:
</font>

• The standard design Mercenary Cruiser has 8 triple turrets with no weapons installed. Its drives and computers use 27 of the available 30 EP leaving 3 EP to power up to 24 weapons on a ship designed to engage in combat.</font>
• The launch comes with an empty triple turret and 0.2 of 0.4 EP available to power it.</font>
• The A2 Far Trader comes with 2 double turrets and 0 of 4 EPs available to power installed weapons.</font>

I suppose the intent in the case of the small craft and non-combat vessels could be that sandcasters should be the only combat system that would be installed, but that doesn't really jive with the feeling I've always gotten from the OTU.

 

[far-trader]

As advertised above the deckplans to go with my version of the Scout are posted, the link is with the key here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000255;p=2#000023

 

[far-trader]

I totally agree with what you're saying and started my own project to better translate the spirit of the old CT designs to T20. Some of that work is here on the boards:

To date, there's my essay already mentioned and recently updated on the Type S here:

INSIDE - The Type S Scout/Courier


Some notes on small craft here:

Small Craft - CT to T20

I started with the 95ton shuttle in the post because although I had some work done on most of the others I wasn't happy with them yet.


One version of a Type T Patrol Cruiser here:
Type T Patrol Cruiser


My take on a "corrected" CT Kinunir design and the T20 translation here:

Kinunir frontier cruiser


A Type CE Close Escort here:

Gazelle class Close Escort

...and possibly a few others somewhere I missed in the quick search. I know I have notes around here, some with deckplans, for the Free-Trader, Far-Trader, Fat-Trader, Sub-Liner, Yacht, Safari Ship, and Lab Ship (I think?), as well as the basic small craft. Basically all the standard CT ships and then some.

 

[Commander Drax]

You've got to remember guys that commercial starships like the free and Far trader would be built as cheaply as possible due to the effects of economic competition and the need to reduce mortage payments and maximise profits. Power plants are expensive so for merchants at least sandcasters and missile racks make sense.

As for the scout courier, it has been mentioned in previous editions of traveller that military ships do not need purifiers as they have hardened drives. I do not like this explanation myself but the scout being a paramilitary design could take advantage of military grade drives.

As for other designs like merchant cruiser I like the idea of more than one power plant, installed at the expense of some other space allowing some redundancy if the main plant is hit but mainly intended to provide power to the installed weaponry.

It surprises me that it doesn't come with a standard weapons package as part of its design load out.

 

[mike wightman]

For T20 designs if you want cheap then you build at TL15 to get the power plant at its lowest cost.
On ships 300t and over using a streamlined close structure can save you even more money - even though you have to pay for more advanced avionics and additional streamlining cost.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually the way CT handles the bridge allows Small craft to have a bridge or not have a bridge (Well Highguard anyway.) on small craft. I always pictured a small craft bridge as like a cockpit on an aircraft. T20 said you had to have a bridge and that a bridge includes 2 seats but the person that did the "Standard Designs" appear to have forgotten that the seats are there and added more." Remember in CT the Bridge included your avionics, commo and sensors. Also probably includes control runs and your attitude thrusters.

T20 took several of the bridge functions and made them part of the computer.

Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
I thought the Small Craft were even more odd. Since all Small Craft require a bridge and a Bridge includes 2 Acceleration couches, why do all the Small Craft have additional accelleration Couches. (Specifically the Fighter which is listed as a one man craft but has three chairs.

)

Yeah...the way T20 (and presumably CT) handles the bridge has bugged me from day 1. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BetterThanLife]

Or just go flattened sphere. Which saves on the upgrade costs of the improved streamlining and hte increase cost of the computer because you need one level higher of Avionics.

YOu can swap out the typical TL-9 PP with a TL-13 one get equal volume and half again as much power. (For the same price.) Or swap out the TL-9 one for a smaller TL-15 one and sell the old one for parts. You can actually double your power output and make a profit doing it. (Since Powerplant price is based on size not capability.)

However I do agree that the Standard designs are grossly under powered, when compared to the CT equivalents.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
For T20 designs if you want cheap then you build at TL15 to get the power plant at its lowest cost.
On ships 200t and over using a streamlined close structure can save you even more money - even though you have to pay for more advanced avionics and additional streamlining cost.

 

[mike wightman]

I checked the numbers again, the upgraded computer/avionics plus streamlining upgrade is still cheaper than using a flattened sphere, on 300t ships and above :
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">300t flattened sphere hull = 24.0 MCr
model 1 computer etc. = 2.0 MCr
total = 26.0 MCr
.
300t close structure = 18.0 MCr
streamlining upgrade = 1.5 MCr
model 1 bis computer etc.
+ model 2 avionics = 5.8 MCr
total = 25.3 MCr</pre>[/QUOTE]Ok, 700kCr isn't much of a saving
But try it with larger hulls, especially jump 2 or greater craft that require the larger computer anyway

It works out cheaper for 100-200t ships with jump 2 and above too

 

[graden1]

Even if you're not skimming fuel from a gas giant, a fuel processor can still save you some cash at a starport. Unrefined fuel is much cheaper: cr100/ton, vs. cr500/ton for refined fuel. So your free trader can save cr8000 per jump buying unrefined fuel and using an onboard refinery. At lower tech levels, this is about a break-even, as the refinery displaces around 8dtons (don't have the design tables in front of me) and that's cr8000 in cargo revenue per jump, potentially much more for speculative trade. Note that if you go this route, you can use the plant without needing any fuel scoops!

For larger ships, longer jumps, or smaller refineries (3dtons at TL15!) the potential benefits are greater. I like to have fuel scoops myself, just for operational flexibility, and the smallest purification plant I can lay hold of--they're relatively inexpensive, as ship components go.

XO

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
You've got to remember guys that commercial starships like the free and Far trader would be built as cheaply as possible due to the effects of economic competition and the need to reduce mortage payments and maximise profits. Power plants are expensive so for merchants at least sandcasters and missile racks make sense.

If the powerplants are being skimped to make the ships cheaper and more economicaly feasable, then why were empty turrets and hardpoints installed at all. Seems like a bunch of wasted space to me.

And are missile racks really less expensive than a set of lasers in the long run...IIRC you only get three missiles per launcher (not counting any you may have stored in the hold...though that will take up precious cargo space as well). So not only is you combat power pretty heavily limited, but everytime you use a missile, you've got to pay to replace it and missiles aren't any good at shooting down incoming missiles.

On the other hand, I actually can see the assumption that civilian ships shouldn't be getting into fights and when they do they should only have defensive weapons such as the sandcaster. Of course, that makes far more sense for the core like regions rather than the fringes where I imagine many games are set.

Originally posted by Commander Drax:

As for the scout courier, it has been mentioned in previous editions of traveller that military ships do not need purifiers as they have hardened drives. I do not like this explanation myself but the scout being a paramilitary design could take advantage of military grade drives.

Really. I don't remember seeing that anywhere. I also don't think it is official in T20 which is what the ships we are talking about are designed for. If you know where that rule is, please let me know, that could make a subtle but significant impact on a lot of smaller military designs.

 

[mike wightman]

LBB2 2nd edition page 6.
MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia page 88.

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I thought the Small Craft were even more odd. Since all Small Craft require a bridge and a Bridge includes 2 Acceleration couches, why do all the Small Craft have additional accelleration Couches. (Specifically the Fighter which is listed as a one man craft but has three chairs.

)

Well, I can understand the 2 acceleration couches as a way to provide some minor passenger capability. What I don't see or understand is the small cabin that the small craft tend to have in the THB.

Ron

 

[BetterThanLife]

It isn't in T20. In CT (LBB2 before purification plants from LBB5) it is obvious that military and Scout ships were better designed to deal with unrefined fuel. Unrefined fuel gave you a chance to misjump, moved your chance on a maintained ship from 13 to 12. Military ships gave you a bonus, of one, moving it back to 13. Scout ships gave you a plus 2, moving the chance for misjump to 15 with refined fuel and 14 with unrefined fuel. (On 2D6) The only way to misjump a Scout in CT was to either jump out in a Gravity well or grossly neglect your annual maintenance. Starting with MT, since there were purification plants in the rules since LBB5, they no longer included the bonus. T20 is basically HG so there is no bonus for scouts running on unrefined fuel but since it is also drawn from that era there is no purification plant as well. At least that is my take on why it is as it is.

Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
Really. I don't remember seeing that anywhere. I also don't think it is official in T20 which is what the ships we are talking about are designed for. If you know where that rule is, please let me know, that could make a subtle but significant impact on a lot of smaller military designs.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Passenger capacity in a Fighter? Besides if you want minor passenger capacity, it is easy enough for the customer to add it. If it isn't needed, like a fuel shuttle or cargo design then it isn't there. I do agree that the addition of a small craft cabin, when most trips taken by small craft are less than a couple of hours definitely seems like a waste of space. Again if the customer wants it for an application they can add it.

Originally posted by Ron Vutpakdi:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
I thought the Small Craft were even more odd. Since all Small Craft require a bridge and a Bridge includes 2 Acceleration couches, why do all the Small Craft have additional accelleration Couches. (Specifically the Fighter which is listed as a one man craft but has three chairs.

)

Well, I can understand the 2 acceleration couches as a way to provide some minor passenger capability. What I don't see or understand is the small cabin that the small craft tend to have in the THB.

Ron </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Passenger capacity in a Fighter? Besides if you want minor passenger capacity, it is easy enough for the customer to add it. If it isn't needed, like a fuel shuttle or cargo design then it isn't there. I do agree that the addition of a small craft cabin, when most trips taken by small craft are less than a couple of hours definitely seems like a waste of space. Again if the customer wants it for an application they can add it.

The thrid couch in the fighter is a goof*. As for the passenger seat I think Bhoins was referring to other than the fighter. In any case a two place fighter makes sense to allow for a pilot and gunner, or as a trainer, or any number of possibilities.

* What I think might have happended, and it's just a guess, the designer built it like the HG version, no bridge just a computer and add a seat, as a single place fighter. Except T20 is pretty specific about needing both unlike HG which I'd asked about a while back to see if it wasn't errata.

For other craft, yes while the typical use players will see and make of them might be just shuttling between orbit and world I think the majority of small craft will be employed locally in-system. Some of those trips will take days or even weeks so you will need a small cabin for the crew that is for example making a delivery to that moon or neighbour world. Still, I have been building my conversions like the CT ones, just the basics and customization space left for the extras such as cabins, passenger seats and so on. So on that we agree.