Standard Missile Sizes

[aramis]

That's Because the missile design sequence is in SS3, Andy.

 

[JAFARR]

I looked in that too, but must have missed it there. Normally I don't use SS3 as it just adds extra paperwork without improving the quality of the game enough to justify it, IMHO.

 

[Starviking]

Brilliant Lances, Rules of Play Page 19. Missile Section, Paragraph 3:
"Each missile launcher may launch up to 10 missiles per Launch Phase, so long as a supply of missiles remains."

Personally I'd go with FF&S, as it goes into greater technical detail.

 

[Starviking]

MT Referee's Manual P74 under item 18 Magazine requirements states in part, "A 100-ton bay used as an ammo magazine can hold up to 13500 missiles."
Or 135 missiles per ton. Using CT's 13.5 cubic meters per ton, that works out to .1 cubic meter total volume per missile. Unless I dropped a decimal point somewhere that converts to 1 liter. Try again and tell me about not running across to the other side of the ship to take a missile to the remaining functional launcher because the missile is too big. I think I might actually could do that as long as it weighed 25 kg or less. (For this side of the pond, that's slightly larger than a quart jar and 55 pounds.)

Some of the discussion here relates to TNE missiles, which are bigger than CT/MT ones.

 

[JAFARR]

Some of the discussion here relates to TNE missiles, which are bigger than CT/MT ones.

So I gathered. And, my own quote would say that quart jar weighs closer to 100 pounds than 50. Heavy Jar!

 

[BlackBat242]

I looked in that too, but must have missed it there. Normally I don't use SS3 as it just adds extra paperwork without improving the quality of the game enough to justify it, IMHO.

On the first text page (page 2), paragraphs 4-6.

Coloring and bolding mine

Standard missiles must be able to fit into a standardized shipping/launch container. The launch container is fitted directly to the launch rack and the missile is fired from it. The container includes integral test circuitry, provides protection from extremes of temperature and weather, and is isolated from the corrosive effects of atmosphere and moisture.

The standard container is a cylinder with interior dimensions of one meter long and 15 centimeters in diameter. Sealed for safety and security, the containers can be opened and the contents examined, removed or exchanged- an important feature when components are to be custom assembled for specific missile types.

Missile mass varies with the specific type of missile and is the sum of the masses of the missile's components. For convenience, missile mass is used to determine space limitations on missiles. A standard container will hold any missile of 50 kilograms or less; missiles in excess of 50 kilograms are unable to fit in standard missile containers, and thus in standard missile launch racks.

 

[Theophilus]

Okay, I'll type really slow this time.

In CT/MT missiles are 1m x 150mm, about the size of a Sidewinder ACM, relatively small and easily carried by a man.

In TNE missiles are large, very large, around 3m long and 1m diameter. taking up 1/2 ton each, Try carrying one of these across the ship. Would it even fit in a standard corridor, never mind corners and lifts and such.

The first thing we must do is choose which ruleset we are discussing. Since all other conversations about missiles depend on the above facts.

 

[Theophilus]

Personally I'd go with FF&S, as it goes into greater technical detail.

Please define greater technical detail for me. I see the design rules, but not game rules for missiles in FF&S. Am I missing something?

 

[JAFARR]

The standard container is a cylinder with interior dimensions of one meter long and 15 centimeters in diameter

Volume of container:
V=Pi*R*R*L
V= 3.14159*7.5*7.5*100=17671.459cc=17.67Kl= approx. 4.5 gallons
Therefore the missile has to be smaller than the container.

To convert to numbers with which I am used to working, the missile itself must be smaller than 15/2.54=5.9 inches in diameter and 100/2.54=39.37 inches long. In other words the size of a 6 inch iron pipe 3 & 1/3 feet long and weighing about 110 pounds. I could carry that - just barely. How fast and for how far is another question. Plus we have to add in the container if we are going by SS3 unless this missile can be put into an expended container when we arrive at the other launcher.

But please note my disclaimer from the original claim - if it weighs 50 pounds or less.

Now let's check something else. 1 dTon per CT = 13.5 cubic meters
1cubic meter = 1000 KL*13.5= 13500Kl/17.67=764 missiles per ton.
Per MT 100 ton bays can store 13500 missiles which works out to 17.67 actual tons of the 100. Is 13500 a FLAG (flat out guess) or a WAG (wild "back side of your anotomy" guess)?

 

[aramis]

The original claim is 50 kg, not 50 lbs... a factor of 2.2...

keep in mind that the bay needs
1) reload access
2) maintenance access
3) equipment
4) launch and fire direction equipment

I agree that 1/5th of volume is probably low, but it would take at least 2x that for handling equipment losses (and closer to 3x, likely) and the rest quickly eats at the remaining bay space.

 

[Starviking]

Please define greater technical detail for me. I see the design rules, but not game rules for missiles in FF&S. Am I missing something?

Well the FF&S (p151) also states that an hour is required to reload a missile launcher, but this time can be cut to effectively nothing (5 to 10 minutes) with the use of a mechanical re-loader. It also states that 5 to 10 minutes is less than one space combat turn. That seems pretty much a game rule to me.

I also think that RPG boardgame rules can be slightly out of sync with the RPG rules, for all the reason of playability - however, when the two conflict the RPG rules should trump boardgame rules for in-universe discussions.

 

[JAFARR]

I can live with the 1 m X 15 cm x 50 kg, and magazines holding 100 per dton (if you allow for an autoloader). These numbers make for easy record keeping.


P.S. Wil, I first posted that I could do it if it weighed 25 kg back on page 4, before someone actually quoted the 50 kg statement. I meant me personally right now at age 59, not a PC, based on the fact that I just finnished doing the floors at school. A 5 gallon bucket of water for the carpet cleaner weighs about 40 - 45 pounds, the wax, again in 5 gallon buckets a little more, and I wasn't even beginning to strain (of course that was before surgery on the hand, but I still have the left hand useable right now - the right will be useable again soon).

 

[Theophilus]

Well the FF&S (p151) also states that an hour is required to reload a missile launcher, but this time can be cut to effectively nothing (5 to 10 minutes) with the use of a mechanical re-loader. It also states that 5 to 10 minutes is less than one space combat turn. That seems pretty much a game rule to me.

But, we are mixing metaphors again. Your statement deals with reload time, mine with firing sequence. I can fire upto ten missiles per turn, or twenty missiles per hour. If I manually reload these very large missiles it will take one hour, If I have a manual reloading system from the magazine to the launcher it takes 5 to 10 minutes to reload my launcher.

I would interpret this to mean it takes one hour to manhandle one missile into the tube. (think WW I/II submarine torpedo tube), shove that sucker in there with boom and tackle. If this is how it works I can fire my one ready missile, wait two turns as I reload, and fire again, that is to say I fire a missile on turn one, it take one hour (two turns to reload) then I fire again. Perhaps that may be on turn three, or maybe turn four. Not exactly blazing fast missile launching.

If rate of fire is ten missiles per turn, then reload time must be less than three minutes. So how do we reconcile the difference?

I would suggest that ROF uses the ready missiles in the Launcher, And reload time is for the ready missiles, My launcher fires every three minutes, while the reloader replenishes the ready missiles in 5 to ten minutes, far faster than I can fire, removing any "ammunition shortage" problems from functioning launcher.

In GAME USAGE: battle damage renders the auto reloader non functional, crew struggles to reload ready missiles by hand.

 

[Starviking]

But, we are mixing metaphors again. Your statement deals with reload time, mine with firing sequence. I can fire upto ten missiles per turn, or twenty missiles per hour.

Theophilus,

Well reloading is the limit on the firing rate, so I think we have a general equivalence between reloading time and firing rate. BTW, I checked the duration of a space combat round in TNE - it's 30 minutes. So, with a standard missile launcher you can only fire one missile per launcher every other turn: 0.5 missiles per turn.

With a mechanical reloader you can fire between 3 and 6 missile per combat turn, what with the 5 to 10 minutes reloading time.

Whilst in Brilliant Lances you can fire 10 missiles per combat turn.

That's a considerable difference.

Given the best case scenario, a 5 minute reload time you might be able to fire 7 missiles per launcher, or 14 per turret. With the 10 minute reload time you'll only be able to fire 4 per launcher, 8 per turret.

A thought occurs - does your 10 missiles per combat turn apply to launchers or missile turrets?

 

[Theophilus]

A thought occurs - does your 10 missiles per combat turn apply to launchers or missile turrets?

The specific rule says launchers. "Each missile launcher may launch upto ten missiles per Launch phase, so long as a supply of missiles remains"

Please note that a turret is simply the "vehicle" by which the launcher is contained. Launchers may be placed in turrets, barbettes, or bays. Obviously a three ton turret containing a launcher and loader and half ton missiles would only have around three missiles, while a 50 ton bay could have several launchers with attendant loaders and ready missiles.

Now, looking at the design sequence in FF&S1, Each launcher has a volume equal to twice that of the missile it will launch, A mechanical reloader is twice the size of the missile it will reload, Mechanical reloaders use spare missiles carried in the launch facility in reload cradles at 1.5 times the mass of the missile (ie 3/4 ton).
So the question is how do we reconcile the ten missile per turn rule from BL with the 5-10 minute reload time from FF&S1?

The text in FF&S say's: "Normally, an hour is required to reload a missile launcher, but this time can be cut to effectively nothing (five to 10 minutes-less than one space combat turn) by the addition of a mechanical reloader.

First: what does the term missile launcher mean in this text? Is it just the "torpedo tube" alone or is it the whole facility? Since the reloader load's from ready missiles held in launch cradles in the facility it would seem as if this only refers to the actual "torpedo tube" itself.

So, does the speed of the mechanical reloader set the speed at which missiles can be launched, upto a maximum of ten as per BL? Perhaps.

If I have one in the tube and my reload time is 5minutes can I launch 7 missiles in a combat turn? ie. 30 minute round divided by 5 minute reload time.

Or do I use the 10 minute figure for a rof of 4 missiles the first turn and three the second.

Perhaps the 10 minute figure is for TL9 launchers and I could reduce the time for each improving TL, 9 minutes at TL10, 8 at TL11, 7 at TL12, 6 at TL13, 5 at TL14.
Perhaps we could start at TL8 and 10 minutes and go to TL16 and three minutes there by reconciling the two books.

A new house rule adjusting launch rate to TL.

 

[Theophilus]

While Starvikings away I'll keep the thread alive>
I would suggest removing the parenthetical statement from FF&S removing the around 5 to 10 minutes part, which would change the text to read:

"Normally, an hour is required to reload a missile launcher, but this time can be cut to effectively nothing by the addition of a mechanical reloader."

Textual problem solved?

LGM-30 Minuteman L: 17.996m D: 1.677m
LGM-118 Peacekeeper L: 21.657m D: 2.338m
AGM-86 ALCM L: 6.329m D:.61m
AIM-7 Sparrow L:3.66m D: .2m
AIM-9 Sidewinder L: 2.872m D: .127m
AIM-120 AMRAAM L: 3.66m D: .177m
AGM-65 Maverick L: 2.491m D: .305m
AGM-88 Harm L: 4.182m D: .254m

 

[robject]

T5 has four missile size ranges, from basketball-sized to vehicle-sized, with various types of uses possible -- including as probes -- with a design system almost entirely unlike SS3 (and probably FFS as well). The largest missiles are generally ship-killers and/or kinetic masses. The "standard" missile is roughly the size of a person and has a variety of configurations. The smaller missiles generally appear to be salvo-based det-laser or det-EMP.

 

[morfydd]

Missiles

Well it varies from game system to game system ..

Lets take a real world example and convert it ..the one armed bandit used on the perry class guided missile frigate ..with its automated loader fed by a 40 round magazine..

Real life it can ripple fire the entire contents of its launcher in approximatley 6 minutes...provided all the missiles are headed to the same target.....that slows down as each missile is directed at different targets.( a single launcher inside a barbette with a magazone and the size is about right)..so realistcally with each target getting verified it can launch 40 missiles in about 40 minutes at 40 seperate targets ...( thats 32 Anti air missiles and 8 harpoons ie anti ship) all of which are fire and forget ..ie once a target is aquired that missile if going after that target ..and no longer needs fire control from the firing ship..

I cannot see a more advanced system being able to do any less than a tech 8 naval warship...

So we get one missile per minute at a target from a single launcher ..that works for me for a realistic ( even with tech scaling up ) as the variables in a ship to ship combat will be more complex and thats the limiter ..

 

[Theophilus]

Exactly, TNE missile launch rules don't reflect real life. Even with autoloaders, and only one missile per hour is rediculously slow. Even the twenty missiles per hour rate is slow. And the limiting factor in missiles was not launch rate, but control links. It takes more MFD's than missile launchers.