Standard Missile Sizes

[Patron Zero]

Cluster-MIRV

15cm is fine for a tank/arty shell, but it's tiny for an an anti-ship missile. TNE went too far the other way, though.

I'm wondering if that might be the specs for one sub-munition/sub-projectile of a clustered payload like a MIRV warhead.

 

[Theophilus]

A 3m*18m missile would be 9dt.

A 7m3 (0.5dt) 6:1 missile is 1.14m*6.84m. Still pretty huge.

Mea Culpa, I see what I did, 1m=3ft, 6m=18ft.
I quoted english measurments 3ftx18ft.

 

[Theophilus]

The standard 0.5dt missile if it was a cylinder with a 7 cubic meter volume would be Length 4.8 meters, Diameter 1.36 meters. (pi * r^2 * length) an actual cylinder with these dimensions would not fit in a standard TNE turret at all (height of 4.2 meters and diameter 3.6 meters) I assume a flared tail to shorten the length sufficiently to fit so I go with the diameter as the average figure.

Well, the 1.36 meters would fit in a 3.6 meter turret. So obviously a TNE Missile Turret is more like a modern Torpedo Tube than a trainable turret.

 

[Antony]

I like the idea of them being more like torpedo tubes. Closer still would be the trainable launchers found on WW1 and 2 destroyers. Just put a cover on them and you have a "turret" or "barbette" in TNE terms.

The Kinunir in its original incarnation had 2 bow mounted triple missile turrets. The TNE version which has 2 bow mounted missile turrets with 2 launchers each could be said to have four bow mounted torpedo tubes in 2 banks of 2.

 

[BlackBat242]

Like these:

 

[Starviking]

The standard 0.5dt missile if it was a cylinder with a 7 cubic meter volume would be Length 4.8 meters, Diameter 1.36 meters. (pi * r^2 * length) an actual cylinder with these dimensions would not fit in a standard TNE turret at all (height of 4.2 meters and diameter 3.6 meters) I assume a flared tail to shorten the length sufficiently to fit so I go with the diameter as the average figure.

I did a few rough calculations to get a hold on turret/missile relationships:

First I calculated the size of a square which would fit cleanly within the 3.6 metre diameter of the turret: approx 3.2 metres on a side.

Next I calculated cylindrical missile diameters for missiles of length 4.2 : 1.46 metres.

This leaves plenty of room for an extensible training mechanism, as the vertical missiles have 28 centimetres separation, perhaps something akin to this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Sea-dart_DN-SN-90-08592.jpg

Might also be of interest to note that you could dimensionally fit two missiles of round 5.28 metres in the TNE Missile Turret - just put them at 45 degrees to the vertical. Whether the workstation and training mechanism could fit too is another question...

As an aside, I wonder why TNE navy ships don't fit Vertical Launching Systems? Can the Turrets & Barbettes accommodate a greater variety of payloads?

 

[Antony]

The RQS Modular Inspection Launch in the Regency Sourcebook was capable of being fitted with two missile pods with 8 ready missiles each, while the Trekhyair type cutters have nine missile launch tubes with one missile in each so it looks like they were starting to play around with missile launchers in the later TNE period.

 

[BlackBat242]

As an aside, I wonder why TNE navy ships don't fit Vertical Launching Systems? Can the Turrets & Barbettes accommodate a greater variety of payloads?

More holes in the hull mean more atmosphere-sealing issues, greater chance of battle damage trashing the tube covers, and less hull strength.

 

[Theophilus]

Actually, many of the later illustrations for Traveller material show fixed missile launchers rather than conventional turrets. For instance the "standard" SDB is often shown with "pop up" missile panels and two turrets, the Darrian Patrol Cruiser has a "missile bay" shown as three Iris valved launchers, etc.

 

[far-trader]

Actually, many of the later illustrations for Traveller material show fixed missile launchers rather than conventional turrets. For instance the "standard" SDB is often shown with "pop up" missile panels and two turrets, the Darrian Patrol Cruiser has a "missile bay" shown as three Iris valved launchers, etc.

But one can't really infer much about the game designer's ideas or rules as written from artwok. Artwork is often at odds with the plot/rules because the artist applies their vision, often with incomplete or little information to build on. Not saying it's wrong or bad, just that it's not always the same as a true illustration.

 

[Starviking]

More holes in the hull mean more atmosphere-sealing issues, greater chance of battle damage trashing the tube covers, and less hull strength.

I don't think that's the case. With the missile turret, either in TNE or otherwise we have a large hole in the hull. From the aspect of hull strength smaller holes have more strength, you can see this in many designs nowadays that have circular holes incorporated to save on metal. Tube covers can be reinforced, and the tubes can be designed with reinforcement on the inner side. Atmosphere sealing would be a mixed bag - a turret problem would be more likely to have a large impact on sealing, but there would be more tube covers, and so more things to go wrong with a tube-launch system. That said, tube issues could be solved with a hull plate patch.

 

[Starviking]

But one can't really infer much about the game designer's ideas or rules as written from artwok. Artwork is often at odds with the plot/rules because the artist applies their vision, often with incomplete or little information to build on. Not saying it's wrong or bad, just that it's not always the same as a true illustration.

Well TNE's FF&S mentions that space missiles need launchers. If you couple this with the deliberate move away from a 'gun' style for the lasers in TNE (lasers being large flat focal arrays) I think this artwork is probably pretty close to what the TNE designers intended.

In fact, with each TNE space missile taking up a volume of one sixth of the turret space, with the launcher adding another sixth - and there being two launchers and missiles in the turret, I can't see how a traditional gun-style missile turret could be accommodated in a standard TNE design.

 

[Theophilus]

And then the question comes:
Why does my 200kton dreadnaught throw the same missile as my 2000ton destroyer?

So, then I design a 3ton Capital Ship Missile, with Heplar drive and 100g's acceleration, and a 20 megaton laser warhead.

And then I design my 6ton Super Capital Missile, With planetbusting Anti-matter warhead.

(Sounds like Starfire, Or David Webers Honorverse, doesn't it!)

Point being that TNE allows much more leeway in weapons design than CT/MT ever did. And it was more realistic as well.

When you consider that TNE missile launchers were said to launch 10 missiles per turn, and that you needed a minimum of seven tons for the launcher and 10 missiles, "turret" or "barbette" launchers make little sense. Only small bays really worked for TNE missiles. Then you put two, three or four launchers and ready missiles in each bay. Fifty bays with four launchers each launch 2000 missiles per turn. That's like throwing a Chrysanthemum DE at your enemeis each turn.

 

[Starviking]

And then the question comes:
When you consider that TNE missile launchers were said to launch 10 missiles per turn, and that you needed a minimum of seven tons for the launcher and 10 missiles, "turret" or "barbette" launchers make little sense. Only small bays really worked for TNE missiles. Then you put two, three or four launchers and ready missiles in each bay. Fifty bays with four launchers each launch 2000 missiles per turn. That's like throwing a Chrysanthemum DE at your enemeis each turn.

Like the big-bad missiles. On the subject of launchers, my copy of FF&S says launchers have double the volume of the missile they are designed to launch - including the aforesaid missile. So with a 0.5 ton missile you have the 1 ton launcher that 'incorporates' it. I don't know about the 10 missiles per turn - if a mechanical reload is incorporated into the design (same dimensions as the launcher) reload time is cut from one hour to 5 to 10 minutes.

 

[Antony]

Incidently has anyone extended the nuclear warhead and ND tables in FF&S1 past their current levels (100kt for conventonal nukes and 500kt for ND warheads)?

It is also possible to build missiles smaller than 7m3 in FF&S1 too which still have ND warheads.

 

[Theophilus]

I don't know about the 10 missiles per turn - if a mechanical reload is incorporated into the design (same dimensions as the launcher) reload time is cut from one hour to 5 to 10 minutes.

Brilliant Lances, Rules of Play Page 19. Missile Section, Paragraph 3:
"Each missile launcher may launch up to 10 missiles per Launch Phase, so long as a supply of missiles remains."

 

[JAFARR]

MT Referee's Manual P74 under item 18 Magazine requirements states in part, "A 100-ton bay used as an ammo magazine can hold up to 13500 missiles."
Or 135 missiles per ton. Using CT's 13.5 cubic meters per ton, that works out to .1 cubic meter total volume per missile. Unless I dropped a decimal point somewhere that converts to 1 liter. Try again and tell me about not running across to the other side of the ship to take a missile to the remaining functional launcher because the missile is too big. I think I might actually could do that as long as it weighed 25 kg or less. (For this side of the pond, that's slightly larger than a quart jar and 55 pounds.)

 

[JAFARR]

CT turret missiles (standard designs): mass = 50kg (110lb), length = 1 meter (3.28'), diameter = 15 cm (5.9"). ...

Reference please

 

[BlackBat242]

CT turret missiles (standard designs): mass = 50kg (110lb), length = 1 meter (3.28'), diameter = 15 cm (5.9").

Reference please

Sigh.

Right there in the rest of that very post!

the post you quoted part of

CT turret missiles (standard designs): mass = 50kg (110lb), length = 1 meter (3.28'), diameter = 15 cm (5.9").

Non-standard missiles may be built using Special Supplement 3 Missiles (insert in Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society issue #21), but while their mass may vary, their dimensions will remain the same.

 

[JAFARR]

LBB2 p 17 states: "Individual missiles weigh about 50kg, and cost Cr5,000 each."

BlackBat242, not trying to antagonize, but I don't find this "standard designs" you refer to in LBB2 or LBB5.