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Spectacular Failure is broken

Again though, this mechanism is hardly unique to T5. It isn't much more than a slightly more complicated version of 'a roll of 1 on 1d20 always produces a fumble'

In d20, a natural 1 produces the possibility of a fumble. A fumble requires that a second 1d20 roll result in a 'failure' in order for the initial roll to be a fumble.

Same in reverse. A natural 20 (or a roll within the crit range of the weapon, which results in a success) produces the possibility of a critical result. It requires a second 1d20 roll to be a 'success' in order for the initial roll to be a critical.
 
BAH!

In d20, a natural 1 produces the possibility of a fumble. A fumble requires that a second 1d20 roll result in a 'failure' in order for the initial roll to be a fumble.

Same in reverse. A natural 20 (or a roll within the crit range of the weapon, which results in a success) produces the possibility of a critical result. It requires a second 1d20 roll to be a 'success' in order for the initial roll to be a critical.
Yeah, for you kids maybe. Us old timers just had to hit it once either way. So much nicer. Though I can't lie, once I got used to the new way, it has its charm. And mean.
 
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Sorry, this is an off-topic post, but I can't express how happy I was to drop in on a T5 topic with 'failure' in the name that was actually about the rules rather than the 'other' popular T5 topic of debate.

To everyone who has posted, thanks for making my day.
 
Yeah, for you kids maybe. Us old timers just had to hit it once either way. So much nicer. Though I can't lie, once I got used to the new way, it has its charm. And mean.

D20 is a specific game engine (also known as D&D 3.0/3.5), not generic D&D.

D20 system has always been "Roll to confirm Crits and fumbles"...

From early in the playtests, according to friends who were in them.
 
Probabilities of Spectacular Successes, Failures, Interestings

Just to throw more wood on the fire, I calculated the probabilities of Spectacular Successes (any 3 dice rolling 1), Spectacular Failures (any 3 dice rolling 6's), and Spectacularly Interesting rolls (3 1's and 3 6's). I have segregated the odds of Spectacularly Interesting from both Spectacular Success and Spectacular Failure so it is never counted with them. The branch of math used to figure out these probabilities is "combinatorics."

ON 3 DICE: SS, SF each: 1/216 (0.463%)
ON 4 DICE: SS, SF each: 21/1,296 (1.620%)
ON 5 DICE: SS, SF each: 276/7,776 (3.549%)
ON 6 DICE: SS, SF each: 2,886/46,656 (6.186%) SI: 20/46,656 (0.0429%)
ON 7 DICE: SS, SF each: 26,181/279,936 (9.352%) SI: 630/279,936 (0.225%)
ON 8 DICE: SS, SF each: 215,109/1,679,616 (12.807%) SI: 11,382/1,679,616 (0.678%)
ON 9 DICE: SS, SF each: 1,641,634/10,077,696 (16.290%) SI: 154,812/10,077,696 (1.536%)
ON 10 DICE: SS, SF each: 11,829,624/60,466,176 (19.564%) SI: 1,761,552/60,466,176 (2.913%)



You're welcome.
 
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After 200,000 die rolls for each, I got this result (numbers are percentages).

1s6s.jpg
 
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The difficulty increase gives you more dice to roll. The higher skill level gives you the opportunity to roll for the task.

Like the 'botch' mechanic in the original Storyteller, it is objectively, measurably, broken.

I think your conclusion is incorrect. What your are seeing is that spectacular success and spectacular failure are more likely when attempting very high difficulty tasks. Skill level is only related to task resolution. It is not related to task construction.

Higher skill level doesn't give you an opportunity to roll for a task. A situation requiring a Task to resolve is what gives you the opportunity. Any character can give a whirl at a hasty beyond impossible task. Skill level doesn't factor into task difficulty determination, nor should it. The Referee determines Task difficulty.

Attempting the impossible can and will present unexpected and/or undesirable results. This is what the rules and the task system convey.
 
I actually don't mind that with greater difficulty comes a greater risk of the spectacular.

Also, in practice, tasks seldom creep above 5 dice -- that's the max difficulty of hitting a human-sized target with a gun; if the adjusted range is greater than 5, the target can't be targetted, so to speak.

Other typical tasks aren't likely to climb that high. So, although the odds increase, the frequency of such tasks being attempted are typically quite low.
 
I would like to weigh in on this, since I have a background in math. But, I can't find the rule to which you guys refer. Where is it?

Thanks!
 
After 200,000 die rolls for each, I got this result.

1s6s.jpg

That's a "Monte Carlo" simulation, but a) I've figured out the exact probability based on all possible combinations of dice rolls, and b) you're including Spectacularly Interesting results along with the Spectacular Successes and Failures. I extracted those. The computer was only told to be on the lookout for rolls with at least 3 1's, but wasn't further told to check for at least 3 6's as well. The correct thing to do is figure out things exactly and subtract the Spectacularly Interestings from the Spectacular Successes (or, equally, from the Spectacular Failures) to show the "pure" Spectacular Successes or Spectacular Failures with no Spectacularly Interestings included.

But it's a nice brute-force approach to help confirm that I didn't make some arithmetic error. Are you able to expand your total number of rolls into tens of millions?



DANGER! HERE BE MATH!

The formulas I'm using (trying to write them in-line) are

Spectacular Success: Odds of rolling at least 3 1's on xD: Sum(from i=3 minimum to x)[C(x,i)*(1/6)^i*(5/6)^(x-i)]

In other words, for 3 1's there is a 1/6 chance of getting a 1 for each of 3 of the dice, and a 5/6 chance for all the other dice of ending up as something else. But then you must figure that dice can be rolled in any order to get 3 1's and the number of arrangements is C(x,i). You must also add in additional terms for 4 1's, 5 1's, etc. up to the maximum number of dice you have, since they also satisfy the "Spectacular Success" condition.

Spectacular Failure: Same odds as Spectacular Success only for at least 3 6's.

Spectacularly Interesting: Odds of rolling at least 3 1's and 3 6's on xD: Sum(from i=3,j=3 minimum up to x-3 maximum)[C(x,i)*(1/6)^i*C(x-i,j)*(1/6)^j*4^(x-i-j)]

C(a,b) means the Combination function ("a choose b" or the number of possible ways to choose "b" non-repeating objects out of "a" objects total). For example, C(6,0)=1, C(6,1)=6, C(6,2)=15, C(6,3)=20, etc. and going back down again since C(6,a) = C(6,6-a). It is also shown as "a" over "b" in long parentheses. A binomial distribution ("Pascal's Triangle") can give you these values. Or you can calculate it as C(a,b) = a!/[b!(a-b)!] where ! is "factorial" (multiply the integer with every integer below it, down to 1. So C(10,6) is 10!/[6!4!] which (taking out 6! on both upper and lower) cancels to 10*9*8*7/4*3*2*1 or 210.


For example: the first Spectacularly Interesting rolls require at least 6D. For 6D, you have only one possible combo: 3 1's and 3 6's. You can't have any more because then you would exceed 6D. However, the 1's can occur in different ways such as the first, second and third die, or first, second and fourth, etc. There are only C(6,3) or 20 arrangements of the 3 1's. Wherever they occur, they constrain the 6's to occupy the remaining spots so the possible different arrangements of the 6's are C(6-3,3) or 1 only (no freedom to rearrange, in this case.)

So Spectacularly Interesting probability for 6D: 20*(1/6)^3*C(3,3)*(1/6)^3*4^0 = 20*1/216*1*1/216*1 = 20/46,656.

The "4^0" term, equal to 1, results from the fact there are no extra dice on 6D that can assume any values other than 1 or 6 so that term disappears. For larger amounts of dice, there are these other dice rolled and they can assume values from 2 to 5, hence 4^(x-i-j) showing all the possible rolls of these, increasing the odds of occurrence. However, the exact values of those other dice don't matter to whether it is a Spectacularly Interesting roll.

The probability is EXACTLY that, but will only be approached with a very large number of fair dice-rolls. It should approach 0.042866941...%.

With more dice, you have to figure different combinations that have at least 3 1's and 3 6's, and sum the probabilities together. For 8 dice it can be (I'm showing possible result sets here: ) (3,3), (3,4), (3,5), (4,3), (4,4) and (5,3).

I'm no textbook author, but I hope I was sufficiently clear on my method.
 
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Skill level doesn't factor into task difficulty determination, nor should it. The Referee determines Task difficulty.

Yes. For Spectacular Success, etc., the rules specifically say, p. 136 "Spectacular Results" that this implies

"Independent of Skill. Even the most skilled of characters can experience spectacular failure and even the least skilled of characters can experience spectacular success."

It implies that this is a consideration of the die-roll independent of the character's skill+knowledge level.
 
That's a "Monte Carlo" simulation,
Yes.
but a) I've figured out the exact probability based on all possible combinations of dice rolls,
And your point?
and b) you're including Spectacularly Interesting results along with the Spectacular Successes and Failures. I extracted those.
Yes, I know.
The computer was only told to be on the lookout for rolls with at least 3 1's, but wasn't further told to check for at least 3 6's as well. The correct thing to do is figure out things exactly and subtract the Spectacularly Interestings from the Spectacular Successes (or, equally, from the Spectacular Failures) to show the "pure" Spectacular Successes or Spectacular Failures with no Spectacularly Interestings included.
"The correct thing to do is..." You're funny.
 
Shonner, I don't mean to be dismissive of all your work. I re-edited that message and asked if it is possible to expand the number of your rolls well past 200,000? Like in the tens of millions? It would help confirm whether I was correct in my arithmetic. But if it takes too long I don't ask you to go through the trouble.

One time in university I integrated the volume of an oblique slice cut out of a 3-D parabola, but I couldn't quite be sure of my reasoning. So I asked a Hewlett-Packard calculator to do a numerical integration of that 3-D bounded shape, and the close approximation confirmed my paper-and-pencil answer.

But now it's late tonight and my head hurts, and I'm hallucinating hairy Surds pursuing me across a desert (not a Sophont race.) So no more math for me.
 
is possible to expand the number of your rolls well past 200,000? Like in the tens of millions? It would help confirm whether I was correct in my arithmetic. But if it takes too long I don't ask you to go through the trouble.
After 20,000,000 die rolls for each, I got this result (numbers are percentages).

1s6s_20_mil_rolls.jpg


Anyway, I'm guessing someone felt that by attempting more difficult tasks, a character is opening themselves up to more chances of a spectacular failure.
 
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Excellent! The table seems to be converging with my numbers. Thanks.

Anyway, I'm guessing someone felt that by attempting more difficult tasks, a character is opening themselves up to more chances of a spectacular failure.

Yes, they may deliberately choose SnapFire or Double Hasty to hope for a Spectacular Success since the chances go up sharply in the high numbers of dice, in an otherwise hopeless situation where they don't have enough skill. But Spectacular Failure is an equal possibility.

The movie WANTED with Angelina Jolie was nothing but a bunch of Spectacular Success gunshots...that's boring! :-)

So what do people suggest as the fix? I would think of considering only what the first 4 dice (for spectacular success/failure) or first 7 dice (for the possibility of spectacularly interesting) in a roll do. This would cap the percentages at about 1.6% and 0.225% respectively. But any such special checking would slow down the dice-rolls.
 
I think for my T5 games I'm going to agree with robject's earlier post in this thread ..

I actually don't mind that with greater difficulty comes a greater risk of the spectacular

Any task that is so hard it requires MANY dice to be rolled probably deserves outcomes which are skewed to the 'spectacular' :-)
 
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So what do people suggest as the fix? I would think of considering only what the first 4 dice (for spectacular success/failure) or first 7 dice (for the possibility of spectacularly interesting) in a roll do. This would cap the percentages at about 1.6% and 0.225% respectively. But any such special checking would slow down the dice-rolls.

I find the colored T5 dice to be very useful for various purposes.

If you prefer to cap the risk and reward, then I suggest using T5's black dice for the "fateful" dice, and using the other colors for the non-fateful kind, as needed. No special checking required.

I also suggest you run your gaming group thru some of the old classic adventures using T5's task system. I think you'll find that 7 dice tasks won't show up very often, if at all.

(But there would seem to be a more subtle problem at work here. By the time you've reached eight dice on a task roll, and the task isn't something upon which the entire game hinges in one fateful moment of action, then you have to start with analysis of the social situation, rather than analysis of the mechanical.)
 
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Suggested fix based on T4

So what do people suggest as the fix? I would think of considering only what the first 4 dice (for spectacular success/failure) or first 7 dice (for the possibility of spectacularly interesting) in a roll do. This would cap the percentages at about 1.6% and 0.225% respectively. But any such special checking would slow down the dice-rolls.


What about my suggestion up-thread?
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=445823&postcount=6

Whenever a roll of all 1's is made (regardless of # of dice), a spectacular success occurs, and whenever a roll that includes three 6's is made (regardless of # of dice), a spectacular failure is the result. This will of course require a modification of the "Spectacularly Interesting" Result. (Perhaps three sixes and the rest all ones for 6 or more dice).

This allows for Average and Easy tasks to get Spectacular Success, while at the same time not increasing the chance for Spectacular Success as the difficulty level increases. Likewise, Spectacular Failure probability increases as the difficulty increases.
 
Whenever a roll of all 1's is made (regardless of # of dice), a spectacular success occurs, and whenever a roll that includes three 6's is made (regardless of # of dice), a spectacular failure is the result. This will of course require a modification of the "Spectacularly Interesting" Result. (Perhaps three sixes and the rest all ones for 6 or more dice).

Yes, you made that suggestion with reference to how things are handled in T4.

The trouble is, # of dice in T5 can go up to 7 or 8 and (extremely rarely with Hasty, This is Hard, Snapfire) to 9 or 10. The chances of all 1's drops to 1 chance out of the whole possible permutations for that number of dice (the denominators in my figures).

We should try to engineer something comparable with the critical success of other games. D&D is 5% (natural 20 Critical Hit roll), Runequest was 1/20th of the needed skill roll (1-5% possible), etc.

There is something to be said for making things more "theatrical" with extreme, impossible situations, but if it were that "theatrical," it might not match the tone of the rest of the game (combat is harsh and damaging). And I personally hesitate to get up to 12%-19% Spectacular Success like my figures are giving me.
 
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