Space Weapons and Technology After 25 years.
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
Emperor Cleon
SOC-8
One thing to remember when comparing Traveller TLs to the real world is that Traveller TLs are more representative of what a world has the resources to produce than how technically sophisticated they are. A TL7 world in Traveller likely has routine contact with worlds with TLs up to 15. They know such technology exists and probably know how to reproduce it. They don't because they don't have the resources to support such technology.
Considering this, it's not surprising that a Traveller TL7 laser is more efficient than a real world one. The Traveller one is reverse-engineered from much higher technology, while we have to build our real world ones from scratch. The same goes for TL8 and TL9 stuff that we don't have yet. It's possible that, if we knew how, we might have the ability to build a grav drive now - IF we had a TL15 engieering text to reverse engineer from.
Considering this, it's not surprising that a Traveller TL7 laser is more efficient than a real world one. The Traveller one is reverse-engineered from much higher technology, while we have to build our real world ones from scratch. The same goes for TL8 and TL9 stuff that we don't have yet. It's possible that, if we knew how, we might have the ability to build a grav drive now - IF we had a TL15 engieering text to reverse engineer from.
Um, Book 6 says the 1990s should be TL9 (We aren't. Marc Miller isn't the only one disappointed.). From Book 4 our military tech seems more like TL8. Looking at Book 3, overall we are on the ragged edge of 6 and 7. Let us compromise to 7.
First, let us look at lasers
Optical Lasers. These are lasers using visible or near-to-visible light (IR through UV). An optical laser first shot down a target drone in 1972. Throughout the seventies bigger and better lasers shot down bigger and better targets, including jet drones, helicopters, and missiles. In the 1980s the SDI program stimulated development, but the hardware was never launched. Great improvements were made in focusing and fire control, as well as laser power. This can now be seen in two programs, the Air Forces Airborne Laser (ABL) and the Army's Theater High Energy Laser (THEL)
The ABL is a 3 MW(?) continuous chemical laser, It uses adaptive optics to compensate for atmospheric distortion, and can destroy ballistic missiles at up to1000 km. It should also be successful at shooting down anti-aircraft missiles or enemy planes at a hundred kilometers. A space-based version with a 4m mirror should have a range of 5-10,000 km.
Being a chemical laser, it burns fuel. A lot of fuel: it takes a 747 to carry it. The Air Force has a prototype, and wants ten more for real.
The Army's THEL is being co-developed with the Israelis (who call their version Nautilus). We want it to shoot down ballistic missiles (it turns out that the Patriot missile didn't really work), and the Israelis also want it to intercept katyushka artillery rockets (multiple 12-16cm targets). The Israelis expect to deploy Nautilus soon but the Army's version will be more mobile and will take a little longer.
Real world TL7 laser: 10,000 KM, 50 ton+ (but mostly fuel)
Traveller TL7 laser 250,000 km+, about 1 ton.
Some lasers can generate beams from an electrical input, this seems to be assumed in Traveller. The Free Electron Lasers vibrate a beam of electrons, and are tunable to a variety of frequencies. They are kinda bulky and inefficient, which means they generate much more waste heat than they send down range. Solid state lasers are basically a special type of light emitting diode. They are very efficient, but very, very weak. Something good may come of these in the future, but not before TL8.
The range of lasers depends on the frequency and the size of the mirror. If a 1.315^-6 m (infra-red) beam and a 4m mirror works out to a 10,000 Km range, then a 1m mirror (that would fit in a turret) and a 10^-8 m (short UV) wavelength should give you the 250,000+ km range of a turret laser. This seems plausible if you up the TL to 8.
X-ray lasers project very short wave radiation, so short it is difficult to focus. It could, theoretically be generated by Free electron Lasers, but there are a number of technical hurdles. I think this is the TL13 breakthrough. In the eighties it was proposed that a bundle of dense metal rods could be violently stimulated by a thermonuclear device. As the rods are destroyed they convert a small portion of the bombs energy into a powerful blast of collimated X-rays . Traveller 2300 used this technology to give missiles a very powerful warhead that would be effective from thousands of km.
Pulse lasers . . . well, in the '60s optically pumped lasers could reach higher energy in a pulse than a laser could continuously. I am not aware of any current line of research pursuing pulse lasers. It is an acceptable game artifact.
Verdict: 1TL off, no rules changes suggested.
First, let us look at lasers
Optical Lasers. These are lasers using visible or near-to-visible light (IR through UV). An optical laser first shot down a target drone in 1972. Throughout the seventies bigger and better lasers shot down bigger and better targets, including jet drones, helicopters, and missiles. In the 1980s the SDI program stimulated development, but the hardware was never launched. Great improvements were made in focusing and fire control, as well as laser power. This can now be seen in two programs, the Air Forces Airborne Laser (ABL) and the Army's Theater High Energy Laser (THEL)
The ABL is a 3 MW(?) continuous chemical laser, It uses adaptive optics to compensate for atmospheric distortion, and can destroy ballistic missiles at up to1000 km. It should also be successful at shooting down anti-aircraft missiles or enemy planes at a hundred kilometers. A space-based version with a 4m mirror should have a range of 5-10,000 km.
Being a chemical laser, it burns fuel. A lot of fuel: it takes a 747 to carry it. The Air Force has a prototype, and wants ten more for real.
The Army's THEL is being co-developed with the Israelis (who call their version Nautilus). We want it to shoot down ballistic missiles (it turns out that the Patriot missile didn't really work), and the Israelis also want it to intercept katyushka artillery rockets (multiple 12-16cm targets). The Israelis expect to deploy Nautilus soon but the Army's version will be more mobile and will take a little longer.
Real world TL7 laser: 10,000 KM, 50 ton+ (but mostly fuel)
Traveller TL7 laser 250,000 km+, about 1 ton.
Some lasers can generate beams from an electrical input, this seems to be assumed in Traveller. The Free Electron Lasers vibrate a beam of electrons, and are tunable to a variety of frequencies. They are kinda bulky and inefficient, which means they generate much more waste heat than they send down range. Solid state lasers are basically a special type of light emitting diode. They are very efficient, but very, very weak. Something good may come of these in the future, but not before TL8.
The range of lasers depends on the frequency and the size of the mirror. If a 1.315^-6 m (infra-red) beam and a 4m mirror works out to a 10,000 Km range, then a 1m mirror (that would fit in a turret) and a 10^-8 m (short UV) wavelength should give you the 250,000+ km range of a turret laser. This seems plausible if you up the TL to 8.
X-ray lasers project very short wave radiation, so short it is difficult to focus. It could, theoretically be generated by Free electron Lasers, but there are a number of technical hurdles. I think this is the TL13 breakthrough. In the eighties it was proposed that a bundle of dense metal rods could be violently stimulated by a thermonuclear device. As the rods are destroyed they convert a small portion of the bombs energy into a powerful blast of collimated X-rays . Traveller 2300 used this technology to give missiles a very powerful warhead that would be effective from thousands of km.
Pulse lasers . . . well, in the '60s optically pumped lasers could reach higher energy in a pulse than a laser could continuously. I am not aware of any current line of research pursuing pulse lasers. It is an acceptable game artifact.
Verdict: 1TL off, no rules changes suggested.
I am n ot going to quible over a TL or two. Book 6 says the 90s would be TL9, but doesn't mention any particular technologies, so I'll consider that optimistic and move on.
Grasers, or Gamma Ray Lasers.
For ship-to-ship weapons, the TL13 improvements are consistant with shortening the frequency from UV to soft X-rays.
Lasers do surface damage. They vaporize the surface layer which creates a "bloom" that bocks the laser for a fraction of a second, then gradually dissipates. In that fraction of a second shock waves can craze ceramics or weaken seams, and tranferred heat can degrade the temper of metal, but it can't easily "burn through" unless it can hold with great accuracy for a matter of seconds.. Industrial and medical lasers avoid this bloom by using a gas jet to blow the vaporized material out of the way, so they can cut deeply and efficiently.
Even X-rays only penetrate a few millimeters in metal, and are largely blocked by just tens of meters of atmosphere.
The high penetration and long range of the TL13 hand lasers, as described in Striker, were inconsistant with the behavior of either optical or X-ray lasers. We assuned they must be projecting very energetic photons, so we called them "gamma-ray lasers," or Grasers.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 14 May 2001).]
Grasers, or Gamma Ray Lasers.
For ship-to-ship weapons, the TL13 improvements are consistant with shortening the frequency from UV to soft X-rays.
Lasers do surface damage. They vaporize the surface layer which creates a "bloom" that bocks the laser for a fraction of a second, then gradually dissipates. In that fraction of a second shock waves can craze ceramics or weaken seams, and tranferred heat can degrade the temper of metal, but it can't easily "burn through" unless it can hold with great accuracy for a matter of seconds.. Industrial and medical lasers avoid this bloom by using a gas jet to blow the vaporized material out of the way, so they can cut deeply and efficiently.
Even X-rays only penetrate a few millimeters in metal, and are largely blocked by just tens of meters of atmosphere.
The high penetration and long range of the TL13 hand lasers, as described in Striker, were inconsistant with the behavior of either optical or X-ray lasers. We assuned they must be projecting very energetic photons, so we called them "gamma-ray lasers," or Grasers.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 14 May 2001).]
Christopher Jennings
SOC-9
I couldn't agree with you more- it is kind of disappointing that we didn't advance as far as we might have. While computers and workforces grew smaller, space got futher and further away. Not that we as a race are ready for space yet, we're still too tribal to be trusted out there. It would be our luck to find out that Klatuu was right after all and that we might not be welcome out there.
I am not sure I want to be welcome. Have you heard of Fermi's paradox? Observing that in our galaxy there should be thousands of technological races, some millions of year older than us, all kicking out EM radiation (when they were young, at least), Enrico Fermi asked, "where are they?"
It is sobering to think they might have a good reason to be quiet . . .
"Independence Day" rather than "The Day the Earth Stood Still"
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 15 May 2001).]
It is sobering to think they might have a good reason to be quiet . . .
"Independence Day" rather than "The Day the Earth Stood Still"
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 15 May 2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Emperor Cleon:
Considering this, it's not surprising that a Traveller TL7 laser is more efficient than a real world one. The Traveller one is reverse-engineered from much higher technology, while we have to build our real world ones from scratch. The same goes for TL8 and TL9 stuff that we don't have yet. It's possible that, if we knew how, we might have the ability to build a grav drive now - IF we had a TL15 engieering text to reverse engineer from.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NASA is just now beginning to take seriously the idea of gravitics, based upon the superconductor researches of a former soviet. I'd say we're TL 8. With a high common of 8, low common of about 6.
So, it should be no surprise that we, average citizens encounter TL 7 stuff most often.
As to weapons: our lasing technology has focused on non-weapon uses for the most part. That we have only used long range (>1 LS) for measurements, but were able to do that, seems to point out that we have the targeting capabilities. We can and have built CPAWS for research.
I have doubts about missles in space combat. but they are an artifact of the setting.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Considering this, it's not surprising that a Traveller TL7 laser is more efficient than a real world one. The Traveller one is reverse-engineered from much higher technology, while we have to build our real world ones from scratch. The same goes for TL8 and TL9 stuff that we don't have yet. It's possible that, if we knew how, we might have the ability to build a grav drive now - IF we had a TL15 engieering text to reverse engineer from.
NASA is just now beginning to take seriously the idea of gravitics, based upon the superconductor researches of a former soviet. I'd say we're TL 8. With a high common of 8, low common of about 6.
So, it should be no surprise that we, average citizens encounter TL 7 stuff most often.
As to weapons: our lasing technology has focused on non-weapon uses for the most part. That we have only used long range (>1 LS) for measurements, but were able to do that, seems to point out that we have the targeting capabilities. We can and have built CPAWS for research.
I have doubts about missles in space combat. but they are an artifact of the setting.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
NASA is just now beginning to take seriously the idea of gravitics, based upon the superconductor researches of a former soviet. I'd say we're TL 8. With a high common of 8, low common of about 6.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought the superconducting/gravity didn't hold up very well. I think it is even off the "Quantum Cavourite" web site. OTOH, John Cramer's report on Woodward's Mach's Principal work was due last month. If it's positive that could lead to a maneuver drive in 20-30 yrs.
I was going to post about missiles, but I wore out my hands over on T20
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 15 May 2001).]
NASA is just now beginning to take seriously the idea of gravitics, based upon the superconductor researches of a former soviet. I'd say we're TL 8. With a high common of 8, low common of about 6.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought the superconducting/gravity didn't hold up very well. I think it is even off the "Quantum Cavourite" web site. OTOH, John Cramer's report on Woodward's Mach's Principal work was due last month. If it's positive that could lead to a maneuver drive in 20-30 yrs.
I was going to post about missiles, but I wore out my hands over on T20
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 15 May 2001).]
What about our medical science - is that approaching a TL9? Human cloning is a real possibility, retrovirus research after HIV likely to be a probability.
We are Solomani after all - not so good at space tech, but the galaxy's demons of bio-tech.
Pity the poor Vilani and their primitive immune systems when they meet us.....
We are Solomani after all - not so good at space tech, but the galaxy's demons of bio-tech.
Pity the poor Vilani and their primitive immune systems when they meet us.....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elliot:
What about our medical science - is that approaching a TL9? Human cloning is a real possibility, retrovirus research after HIV likely to be a probability.
We are Solomani after all - not so good at space tech, but the galaxy's demons of bio-tech.
Pity the poor Vilani and their primitive immune systems when they meet us.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm... I think the solomani prevalence with biotech may be a game artifact (convinient one, though), based upon the idea that, for terrans, we've got plenty of compatable biodiversity to experiment with. The vilani had almost none. Many minor races seem to be somewhat better prepared on that score, but not to the solomani level, apparently by having some other terran life-forms sent along with them. And the Vargr don't care, it would seem... too much else on their plate.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
What about our medical science - is that approaching a TL9? Human cloning is a real possibility, retrovirus research after HIV likely to be a probability.
We are Solomani after all - not so good at space tech, but the galaxy's demons of bio-tech.
Pity the poor Vilani and their primitive immune systems when they meet us.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm... I think the solomani prevalence with biotech may be a game artifact (convinient one, though), based upon the idea that, for terrans, we've got plenty of compatable biodiversity to experiment with. The vilani had almost none. Many minor races seem to be somewhat better prepared on that score, but not to the solomani level, apparently by having some other terran life-forms sent along with them. And the Vargr don't care, it would seem... too much else on their plate.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Missiles
I have been promising this, haven't I?
The effect of missiles on the target seems to be about the same as a contemporary anti-aircraft missile, that is, 10-20 Kg of RDX or about 50-100 Megajoules of energy.
However, the rate of closure indicates an enormous kinetic energy porpotional to the relative velocity of the vehicles If a 50 Kg missile gets a direct hit you can compare the relative length of the velocity vector
100 mm 500 kg TNT
300 mm 5 Tons TNT
600 mm 20 tons TNT
1000 mm 50 Tons TNT
Assuming that a misile cannot be guided to a contact hit and must be proximity fused, it does not need an explosive. It need only scatter 10 g "pellets" (each about the size of a quarter) that will each strike with the energy of 10 Kg TNT (like a TOW missile warhead)
Missiles are supposed to be TL7. They apparently use a powerplant and maneuvering drive, which is beyond us. But if we wanted to build one . . . Using chemical fuel (assuming a generous Isp of 450) and were 90% fuel (which leaves very little room for guidance or warhead) it could keep up 1 G for, just barely, 1 1000sec turn. Then it burns out, no maneuvering, dead.
Using an exotic drive like the Zubrin's nuclear salt-water you could get 5gs for up to 3 turns. Once again, no maneuvering after that, but you should be able to catch a 2G target if you launch at 1800mm or less. Of course, Nuclear-salt water requires near-weapons grade propellant.
There is a new idea being developed for NASA: the Electron Spiral Toroidal energy storage. If a read it right, this would allow you to do 6G for 6 turns, and still have room (barely) for guidance. This is blue-sky stuff, in between VASIMR and a Mach's principle drive.
I have been promising this, haven't I?
The effect of missiles on the target seems to be about the same as a contemporary anti-aircraft missile, that is, 10-20 Kg of RDX or about 50-100 Megajoules of energy.
However, the rate of closure indicates an enormous kinetic energy porpotional to the relative velocity of the vehicles If a 50 Kg missile gets a direct hit you can compare the relative length of the velocity vector
100 mm 500 kg TNT
300 mm 5 Tons TNT
600 mm 20 tons TNT
1000 mm 50 Tons TNT
Assuming that a misile cannot be guided to a contact hit and must be proximity fused, it does not need an explosive. It need only scatter 10 g "pellets" (each about the size of a quarter) that will each strike with the energy of 10 Kg TNT (like a TOW missile warhead)
Missiles are supposed to be TL7. They apparently use a powerplant and maneuvering drive, which is beyond us. But if we wanted to build one . . . Using chemical fuel (assuming a generous Isp of 450) and were 90% fuel (which leaves very little room for guidance or warhead) it could keep up 1 G for, just barely, 1 1000sec turn. Then it burns out, no maneuvering, dead.
Using an exotic drive like the Zubrin's nuclear salt-water you could get 5gs for up to 3 turns. Once again, no maneuvering after that, but you should be able to catch a 2G target if you launch at 1800mm or less. Of course, Nuclear-salt water requires near-weapons grade propellant.
There is a new idea being developed for NASA: the Electron Spiral Toroidal energy storage. If a read it right, this would allow you to do 6G for 6 turns, and still have room (barely) for guidance. This is blue-sky stuff, in between VASIMR and a Mach's principle drive.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
Hmm... I think the solomani prevalence with biotech may be a game artifact (convinient one, though), based upon the idea that, for terrans, we've got plenty of compatable biodiversity to experiment with.
<snip>
And the Vargr don't care, it would seem... too much else on their plate.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought the Vargr had been bioengineered from Terran wolves. I would have thought this would result in very limited biodiversity . . . and very likely a racial distaste for further bioengineering
Hmm... I think the solomani prevalence with biotech may be a game artifact (convinient one, though), based upon the idea that, for terrans, we've got plenty of compatable biodiversity to experiment with.
<snip>
And the Vargr don't care, it would seem... too much else on their plate.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought the Vargr had been bioengineered from Terran wolves. I would have thought this would result in very limited biodiversity . . . and very likely a racial distaste for further bioengineering
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
I thought the Vargr had been bioengineered from Terran wolves. I would have thought this would result in very limited biodiversity . . . and very likely a racial distaste for further bioengineering<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Any given canid species harbors extensive biodiversity in it's genetics. 10 generations and you can get a single pack of wolves transformed into 10 distinct (and true-breeding) breeds. 50, and you can replicate most known breeds.
Also, wolf-domestic hybrids are amazingly mutt-like. Geven a few generqations of diveerse breeds, you can have wolf-like domestics within a hummans ability to engage in a long-term breeding project. Keep in mind, you can get a canid generation every 2 years if you push, 3 more comfortably.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
I thought the Vargr had been bioengineered from Terran wolves. I would have thought this would result in very limited biodiversity . . . and very likely a racial distaste for further bioengineering<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Any given canid species harbors extensive biodiversity in it's genetics. 10 generations and you can get a single pack of wolves transformed into 10 distinct (and true-breeding) breeds. 50, and you can replicate most known breeds.
Also, wolf-domestic hybrids are amazingly mutt-like. Geven a few generqations of diveerse breeds, you can have wolf-like domestics within a hummans ability to engage in a long-term breeding project. Keep in mind, you can get a canid generation every 2 years if you push, 3 more comfortably.
------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Murph:
When will Traveller get the detonation laser missiles that 2300AD had?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are Det Laser missiles in TNE and T4. I have know idea if they are the same as or similar to the ones in 2300.
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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
When will Traveller get the detonation laser missiles that 2300AD had?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are Det Laser missiles in TNE and T4. I have know idea if they are the same as or similar to the ones in 2300.
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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
