Space program

[rancke]

Given serious government funding, what is the lowest tech level that will allow a nation to achieve orbital flight, assuming they want the astronauts to have a decent chance of returning to the surface?

What technologies would be involved? Are there any Traveller rules about that sort of thing anywhere?


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Given serious government funding, what is the lowest tech level that will allow a nation to achieve orbital flight, assuming they want the astronauts to have a decent chance of returning to the surface?

Size of the world (the gravity to overcome) would be a big factor. Easier for a low-g world and harder for a high-g world of course.

Psychologically wise I've heard convincing arguments that we might still not be doing space stuff if we hadn't had such a large, close, natural moon hanging in the sky the whole time we were evolving

What technologies would be involved?

I think many technologies could be involved, but for low tech it's probably going to come down to simple rocketry.

Are there any Traveller rules about that sort of thing anywhere?

Indeed there are. MegaTrav and/or TNE (?) had some rather (good as I recall) detailed rules in some magazine expansion... one of them was called... nope, not coming to me One title was a play-on-words of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" iirc... memory is just not doing it right now. I'm sure somebody will be along to fill that in

 

[rancke]

Size of the world (the gravity to overcome) would be a big factor. Easier for a low-g world and harder for a high-g world of course.

I haven't selected the world, but it will be Human-norm or at the very least Human-prime. If a lowish gravity will help, I can go for a size 6 or 7, but I don't want the gravity to be much lower than 0.9G.

Psycologically I've heard convincing arguments that we might still not be doing space stuff if we hadn't had such a large, close, natural moon hanging in the sky the whole time we were evolving

There's an asteroid in polar orbit. It was put there 700 years ago to be an observation platform for scientists studying the world. Local tech level at the time was 1. I don't know how small it would have to be and how far out it would have to orbit to be undetectable from the surface at the time (My knowledge of astronomy is very limited). If it is a decent size (enough to build a permanent base inside), the scientists would have chosen one that small. If not, they'd just have picked a decent-sized one and let the primitives react as they would to the suddent appearance of a small sattelite in their sky.

Actually, that might be a nice clue for PCs that check ancient legends.

Anyway, the government has incontrovertible proof of recent visits by aliens (i.e. offworlders -- it was Human scintists, actually). It is keeping that knowledge a secret, of course, but that's the reason for the space program and the substantial funding.

The whole adventure is still somewhat nebulous, but one version I'm contemplating is the PCs being (prospective) astronauts who start out unaware of all the secrets and gradually learn more and more. Initial adventures would deal with espionage and sabotage (this is a balkanized world) but gradually expand into illuminati territory. One of the pivotal scenes would be landing on the asteroid and finding a hatch...

I think many technologies could be involved, but for low tech it's probably going to come down to simple rocketry.

TL 6 good enough?

MegaTrav and/or TNE (?) had some rather (good as I recall) detailed rules in some magazine expansion... one of them was called... nope, not coming to me One was a play on "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" iirc... memory is just not doing it right now. I'm sure somebody will be along to fill that in

Somebody please do.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

I haven't selected the world, but it will be Human-norm or at the very least Human-prime. If a lowish gravity will help, I can go for a size 6 or 7, but I don't want the gravity to be much lower than 0.9G.

Not a huge advantage then. It might lower the thrust needed to something pre-TL 6 rocketry though. Something where lower impulse fuels would be enough. A dense atmo might help more if going for a rocket/jet mix airplane. Or both marginally lower gravity and denser atmo.

TL 6 good enough?

Yep, that's where CT puts it

The articles I'm still not recalling the titles or sources of might have had TL5 elements even, but that's a vague memory.

Of course there's the Chinese invention of primitive rocketry dating back to what CT would list as TL1 or so. I don't think that quite fits though, TL achievements related to specific (Western) Earth historical dates is not always accurate

NASA has an interesting history of rocketry summation (link below). The Polish dude cracked the hard bit in 1650 (CT TL2 though again TL v dates fails imo).

http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/rocketry/tl1.html

 

[CosmicGamer]

Who needs rockets? http://www.enotes.com/topic/Non-rocket_spacelaunch

 

[far-trader]

Who needs rockets?

Fair enough but those that are truly rocketless are almost certainly higher TL than rockets

 

[Enoki]

I'd say the TL 5 to 6 range is probably the minimum. Many things could push such a program. Another inhabited, or habitable, planet in the same system would be a huge incentive for example. Knowing that there are more advanced civilizations would be another. Warfare would be a third as it drives technology forward probably faster than anything.

 

[Carlobrand]

The question brings to mind a Pournelle story, King David's Spaceship, in which a TL-5 world - having just been contacted by envoys of that milieu's star empire - successfully pulls off a crash program to send someone into space in an effort to earn a more favorable admission status. Used gunpowder explosions, not a very comfortable ride, and they made no provision for re-entry, trusting that the Imperials in orbit would receive their emissary.

Jules Verne speculated on a spaceship using the technology of his time, launched from a massive cannon. It would have made bloody pulps of any rider, but most readers of the time didn't know that - it made for a great story.

And maybe that's the point: we're playing at science fiction - faster-than-light ships, psychic powers, and all of that. The story doesn't have to be perfect science - it has to be exciting fiction. What if TL-4 humans stumbled on a cache of Ancient self-powered grav lifters and successfully settled their moon with wood-hulled ships built around the Ancient tech? What if one of the great achievements of the Ancients was an organic starship - a psychic whale-like creature that could levitate itself and a number of occupants from the ocean into space and then teleport from star system to star system - and a Bronze-age-level human group bred the creatures and used them to build an empire across the stars? Let your imagination run free.

 

[aramis]

Indeed there are. MegaTrav and/or TNE (?) had some rather (good as I recall) detailed rules in some magazine expansion... one of them was called... nope, not coming to me One title was a play-on-words of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" iirc... memory is just not doing it right now. I'm sure somebody will be along to fill that in

MT: Wood and Wind, Steel and Steam (Rules Module), Gannon, Charles E, Challege #61 p.26

Good stuff.

 

[rancke]

The question brings to mind a Pournelle story, King David's Spaceship, in which a TL-5 world - having just been contacted by envoys of that milieu's star empire - successfully pulls off a crash program to send someone into space in an effort to earn a more favorable admission status. Used gunpowder explosions, not a very comfortable ride, and they made no provision for re-entry, trusting that the Imperials in orbit would receive their emissary.

I know the story. That's why I added the requirement that the astronauts must have a decent chance of getting back down on the surface on their ownsome.

And maybe that's the point: we're playing at science fiction - faster-than-light ships, psychic powers, and all of that. The story doesn't have to be perfect science - it has to be exciting fiction.

Traveller is a hard science fiction game with a soft gooey center, so the story doesn't have to be perfect science, but it does have to be plausible science. At least as I see it.


Hans

 

[rancke]

MT: Wood and Wind, Steel and Steam (Rules Module), Gannon, Charles E, Challege #61 p.26

Thanks, Wil. I wonder if I have a copy of that issue...


Hans

 

[aramis]

Thanks, Wil. I wonder if I have a copy of that issue...


Hans

If you don't, The article should be on the MT CD-Rom.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Always took that and atomic weapons, given an earthlike setup, to be the thing that makes the jump from TL5 to TL6. The thing is, a PERSON would not want to ride on a TL 6 rocket until computer tech catches up around TL7. German deployment of such weapons as the Bachem and the Komet showed some of the dangers of low tech rocketry used for in atmospheric ops, with often catastrophic results (The komet's fuel would ofttn melt the pilot in the cockpit from the fumes, if they made it landing on that goofy ski.)

something like a V2 was a true rocket, but still nowhere near man rated, and would blow up all the time while being tested, after being captured. Later on as the space race really got moving, the sovs would be making pretty substantial jumps, but at high human cost, sweeping a lot of "throw caution to the wind" sort of failures under the rug, to a crazy extent. Thier moonshot program was downright insane, and killed lots of people, who watched the N-1 blow up from chairs on the sidelines.

 

[McPerth]

MT: Wood and Wind, Steel and Steam (Rules Module), Gannon, Charles E, Challege #61 p.26

Good stuff.

Or MT:HT One Small Step, where the various means to space launch without gravitics were shown (from solid fuel rockets to fusion rockets).

 

[far-trader]

Yep, that was the other one McPerth

I had both Wind, Steel, and Steam and One Small Step here at one time but can't find them now. What was One Small Step in? Oh right! HT = Hard Times... odd, though, I don't recall having Hard Times. Was it maybe pre-published somewhere?

 

[aramis]

What was One Small Step in? Oh right! HT = Hard Times... odd, though, I don't recall having Hard Times. Was it maybe pre-published somewhere?

It was originally two separate Challenge Articles.

 

[Icosahedron]

There's no way I can see Da Vinci (TL3), Verne (TL4) or the Kaiser (TL5) creating a viable means of getting a human into orbit and back alive.

Hitler (TL6) might have an outside chance, but I doubt it.

Realistically, our actual Mercury programme was about as rapid a development as you could reasonably expect, IMO.

You need to be able to have the materials for the vessel (including its smallest seals, 'O' rings, etc), you need the fuels to create the necessary power density (forget gunpowder), and you need the life support systems to keep your crew alive. You also need the calculating power to get the vessel in the right place at the right time at the right speed. That re-entry window is difficult to hit, I believe.

Besides, to a large extent, your capabilities define your TL. It could be said that the achievement of successful spaceflight would place the world at TL7 by definition.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Hans,

My take on it would be different from differnt prospectives.

If the world was discovering the tech itself then I would agree that it's more likley with TL7 than with TL6, however it would be doable at TL6 with high loss of life.

If the world is part of the Imperium and they have TL15 knowledge and practises then I would say that TL6 would be fine because you would be able to adapt the technology to overcome the issues that you know form the TL15 knowledge.

In your instance TL6/7 which kind of matches us here on Earth.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[MR TEK]

Earlier TL -7 on earth.

There are arguments that the Chinese had the potential to spark their industrial revolution during the Ming dynasty, which would have occurred during Di Vinci's lifetime.

following a similar development would have put them in space around 1650 or 1700.

I have tinkered with writing alternative fiction around this idea for 30 years so I sort of have timelines.

Of course such a world would not look ANYTHING like the earth as we know it.

In general terms, I would think you would have to pass through the iron age, and fine tool development, the industrial age, to develope interchangable parts and mass production capability, and flight. To be honest, our history, advanced flight, into space, and the computing power to calculate orbits and re-entry developed currently. one tech chain reinforced the other.

Computer technology developed because ballistics and then aerodynamics required computing power to simulate and model and control ever more complicated aircraft and spacecraft.

Seven hundred years, stone age to spaceflight, if scientists actually visited and left artifacts behind, is not so fantastic a leap as a premise that I would balk at it.

A balkinized world with different nations discovering different bits from the visitors and several fighting to gain advantage could be quite playable, at least to me.

Just my thoughts, but I would find such a setting interesting.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Some of the things that hampered TL change here, are not discoveries as such, they are inovations, or practaces.

Things like time and motion studdies, standerdisation, production lines, etc you can work out at any TL you don't have to wait until TL4 to "discover" these. And these type of discoveries will increase efficancies driving TL change forward faster.

And inovations like the paper clip. You could have the paper clip in the iron age, you don't have to wait 1900 years to inovate this product.

Other things you need to generate are wealth and population. Wealth to allow an amount of the population to expand the realms of knowledge (If you are all subsistance farmers you won't have any da Vincis), and population size (so you can have more than one da Vinci).

Another driver for TL advance (apart from war) is information sharing and peer review. If you can foster information sharing far earlier, you can advance TL quicker.

Best regards,

Ewan