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Badenov

SOC-12
So I ran some numbers and designed some vehicles for a TL5 world, to see how it would pan out. I only have access to the 2008-ish Mongoose books, so if things would be different in CT or MgT2 or anywhere else, I apologize. But in the world as presented, there is a problem. Things would not pan out as I understood they are supposed to pan out, and many of the standing assumptions seem to not work as I had understood them. Please set me straight.
 

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Definitely plausible in most Traveller versions. Marines are after all effectively expeditionary light infantry.

I think you’re positing greater survival to suits.

Couple items missing that would handle the tanks and battleships.

Meson accelerators would tear that battleship to pieces.

Ortillery would be on tap, lasers and missiles to lay targets waste too heavy for inf.

Plasma and fusion guns especially rapid fire could handle aerial threats quickly, and act as point defense against main battleship rounds.
 
Ah, I had forgotten about the ortillery. I am basing my Marine Regiment on https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Marines and designed the units with supplement 6 where there wasn't anything already extant, and wrote off artillery as surface artillery, so pointless because arty is less heavily armored than tanks. The Plasma and Fusion can't hurt the thick battleship armor - though when they realize they could shoot someplace other than the armor belt and waste the ship, it would go better. I had discounted Mesons out of habit since our DM only allows Meson beams as spinal mounts and I rarely think about them outside that context. But yes, a meson gun would eat the battleship, though tbh, the meson gun would have to be airborne to have enough range to not get return fire from the ships. Ortillery and ship weapons are the main things marines have that can fight the battleships, I deliberately used the light fighters first, but the heavier fighters all have armor that the battleship's guns can't touch. I got ahead of myself jumping to conclusions and then got wrapped up in my conclusion. This needs a huge rewrite, now, and I need to design some new weapons.
 
I have serious reservations about a battleship main gun being of any use against grav tanks or space fighters. Putting everything else aside, the attack runs you set up aren't much different from what you'd see from a torpedo bomber, and main guns are next to useless against those. I'd have expected the battleship's secondary guns to have taken the primary role as they fire faster and can elevate higher. Which raises the question: why are the grav tanks and fighters coming in from such a low angle? They can see those big guns. That's a big incentive to come in from a much higher angle, and the tanks and fighters could most likely absorb the hits the secondaries can put out. Or, the ship in orbit could have simply sunk it with missiles launched from orbit.
 
Not clear on your point about meson accelerators. The battleship can’t detect their incoming fire and the fire can come straight through the earth, port buildings and/or ocean.
 
So I ran some numbers and designed some vehicles for a TL5 world, to see how it would pan out. I only have access to the 2008-ish Mongoose books, so if things would be different in CT
CT doesn't have a native CT vehicle design system; the Striker Minis Rules serve as the Vehicle Design System, and it's pretty damned crunchy, so, yeah, it's going to be different. Not something one should worry about, tho', provided you've labeled which edition you've used. Which you have.
 
I have serious reservations about a battleship main gun being of any use against grav tanks or space fighters. Putting everything else aside, the attack runs you set up aren't much different from what you'd see from a torpedo bomber, and main guns are next to useless against those. I'd have expected the battleship's secondary guns to have taken the primary role as they fire faster and can elevate higher. Which raises the question: why are the grav tanks and fighters coming in from such a low angle? They can see those big guns. That's a big incentive to come in from a much higher angle, and the tanks and fighters could most likely absorb the hits the secondaries can put out. Or, the ship in orbit could have simply sunk it with missiles launched from orbit.
It's true I wasn't using the speed mods for the vehicles, but I can't imagine anyone uses them in practice as written. -1 per 10m/6s means a 361kph grav tank is going about 600m/6s and would be targeted at -60. No one's hitting it at -60 with anything, which also didn't sound right. If -1 per 10m applies to human-sized targets who are roughly 1/4m^3, proportionally for a 40m^3 grav tank it'd be like -1 per 130-160 meters per turn, or a net of about -4. With good gunners and 3 tries, that's a fair chance of a hit, anyhow. By comparison a WW2-era torpedo bomber is probably like 8-16m^3, so a much harder target, -8-ish by my quick math.
 
Not clear on your point about meson accelerators. The battleship can’t detect their incoming fire and the fire can come straight through the earth, port buildings and/or ocean.
I had not realized they could fire through the planet, that gives over-the-horizon entirely new meaning. You would have to aim by satellite or relay, of course, but it wouldn't be hard.
 
I had not realized they could fire through the planet, that gives over-the-horizon entirely new meaning. You would have to aim by satellite or relay, of course, but it wouldn't be hard.
That’s their superpower, goes through planets and ignores ship armor, detonates internally. Only stopped by meson screens and agility generating a miss.

The CT Striker definition, which I think is the most extreme version, describes a sphere of total destruction wherever its aim point is.

One of the classic riffs on this weapon is a deep meson spinal gun site for planetary defense, buried underground at an unknown location and depth for special surprises.
 
Ortillery would be on tap, lasers and missiles to lay targets waste too heavy for inf.
Its really hard to visualize the high tech Traveller battlefield.

Not just the meson guns, which are just devastation in a pocket. But the high resolution sensors, light speed weapons. Battlefield lasers would be a scary thing. I don't know what the "muzzle velocity" of plasma/fusion round is.

There's a term (the eludes me) about basically getting in to the reactive event loop of a person. Get inside so close that they stammer over their reactions, reacting poorly or slowly.

The speed of the Traveller battlefield just puts everyone in to that space.

The ultimate TL-15 Ortillery ship is something like a 5000 ton support ship, with, like 50 50 ton meson bays. The guns don't need to be large for terrestrial targets. I don't see them shooting grav tanks out of the air, but anything static is in trouble.

No, the high tech Traveller battlefield doesn't look like a happy place.
 
It's true I wasn't using the speed mods for the vehicles, but I can't imagine anyone uses them in practice as written. -1 per 10m/6s means a 361kph grav tank is going about 600m/6s and would be targeted at -60. No one's hitting it at -60 with anything, which also didn't sound right. If -1 per 10m applies to human-sized targets who are roughly 1/4m^3, proportionally for a 40m^3 grav tank it'd be like -1 per 130-160 meters per turn, or a net of about -4. With good gunners and 3 tries, that's a fair chance of a hit, anyhow. By comparison a WW2-era torpedo bomber is probably like 8-16m^3, so a much harder target, -8-ish by my quick math.
I wasn't using numbers either, just the historical behavior of the ship. There was a reason historically that the big guns didn't tend to get used against torpedo bombers, the need to conserve ammo being part of the reason but the difficulty in hitting the target was definitely the other part. Historically, it took roughly a half-minute to load one of the big guns, and they're intended for carefully aimed fire at distant targets with much more limited maneuverability than torpedo bombers. The 5-inchers historically could put out 8 or 9 rounds per minute so were more effective against smaller and more maneuverable targets.

Mind, I don't know what their characteristics would be in a game. I'm not familiar with the Mongoose rule system, so I can't read your ship design table, and I don't know how the combat system works. There's also the rule of cool: it definitely makes for a more exciting story to see the 16-inch shell strike squarely against the approaching grav tank, however the math plays out. One ton of mass hitting at Mach 2 against a target that is itself closing at close to 1/3 the speed of sound is a stirring image. That being said, the general idea of the ship design was to use the faster smaller guns against the faster smaller targets, so there should have been a bunch of 5-inchers opening up on the tanks - and largely having no effect before the 16-inchers open up.
 
Its really hard to visualize the high tech Traveller battlefield.

Not just the meson guns, which are just devastation in a pocket. But the high resolution sensors, light speed weapons. Battlefield lasers would be a scary thing. I don't know what the "muzzle velocity" of plasma/fusion round is.

There's a term (the eludes me) about basically getting in to the reactive event loop of a person. Get inside so close that they stammer over their reactions, reacting poorly or slowly.

The speed of the Traveller battlefield just puts everyone in to that space.

The ultimate TL-15 Ortillery ship is something like a 5000 ton support ship, with, like 50 50 ton meson bays. The guns don't need to be large for terrestrial targets. I don't see them shooting grav tanks out of the air, but anything static is in trouble.

No, the high tech Traveller battlefield doesn't look like a happy place.
OODA loop, first used to describe the human element in a dogfight then applied to war making at all levels.


 
OODA loop, first used to describe the human element in a dogfight then applied to war making at all levels.


There were several cases where the OODA loops were reliant on a requirement from external authorities to authorize actions or assistance. They almost universally worked out poorly for the people that needed to wait for higher-level approval. TL15 almost certainly tightens those up to a greater degree than TL5 can't compete with, though in this case, the TL5 forces are already disorganized and operating outside any central command structure, shortening their own loops. It was hard to make this clear when telling the story from the Marines' side.
Its really hard to visualize the high tech Traveller battlefield.

Not just the meson guns, which are just devastation in a pocket. But the high resolution sensors, light speed weapons. Battlefield lasers would be a scary thing. I don't know what the "muzzle velocity" of plasma/fusion round is.

There's a term (the eludes me) about basically getting in to the reactive event loop of a person. Get inside so close that they stammer over their reactions, reacting poorly or slowly.

The speed of the Traveller battlefield just puts everyone in to that space.

The ultimate TL-15 Ortillery ship is something like a 5000 ton support ship, with, like 50 50 ton meson bays. The guns don't need to be large for terrestrial targets. I don't see them shooting grav tanks out of the air, but anything static is in trouble.

No, the high tech Traveller battlefield doesn't look like a happy place.
That's part of my difficulty - thinking up all the ways TL5 forces can get one over on TL15 forces, and I leaned into the physical layer because that's where I was most surprised. Part of the problem is TL15 is kind of hard to imagine in a way. The bits of it we can see and react to aren't the bits that really make it devastating. It's the interlinking and networking between units and levels of authority that make a TL15 unit responsive. And the ability to call in mesons from orbit.
I wasn't using numbers either, just the historical behavior of the ship. There was a reason historically that the big guns didn't tend to get used against torpedo bombers, the need to conserve ammo being part of the reason but the difficulty in hitting the target was definitely the other part. Historically, it took roughly a half-minute to load one of the big guns, and they're intended for carefully aimed fire at distant targets with much more limited maneuverability than torpedo bombers. The 5-inchers historically could put out 8 or 9 rounds per minute so were more effective against smaller and more maneuverable targets.

Mind, I don't know what their characteristics would be in a game. I'm not familiar with the Mongoose rule system, so I can't read your ship design table, and I don't know how the combat system works. There's also the rule of cool: it definitely makes for a more exciting story to see the 16-inch shell strike squarely against the approaching grav tank, however the math plays out. One ton of mass hitting at Mach 2 against a target that is itself closing at close to 1/3 the speed of sound is a stirring image. That being said, the general idea of the ship design was to use the faster smaller guns against the faster smaller targets, so there should have been a bunch of 5-inchers opening up on the tanks - and largely having no effect before the 16-inchers open up.
The 16-inch mounts could fire at targets over 35km away, the 5-inch mouts could go about 24km, which was why the big guns opened first. And the 5-inch shells would have done very little damage to the tanks, as you observe. I suppose I was locked in the same thinking as the Charge of the Light Brigade rather than allowing the Marines the flexibility and tactical acumen they deserve. My thinking had been, 'We're going to put the boot down on these TL5 numpties and be done by lunchtime,' where they actually ought to be on their A game at all times.
 
Marines are practically spec ops high value units that are always outnumbered. In order to do their job they have to be known as break glass/get can of whoop azz, and if you get one over on them you will regret it extra hard.

Has to be big and ugly to call on that many of them. And you want to be sparse in calling them up if for no other reason then their deterrent value is gone if they are known to be tied up somewhere.

For your narrative it should probably be subsector forces that are TL12 or so and not so well equipped or led.
 
Marines are practically spec ops high value units that are always outnumbered. In order to do their job they have to be known as break glass/get can of whoop azz, and if you get one over on them you will regret it extra hard.

Has to be big and ugly to call on that many of them. And you want to be sparse in calling them up if for no other reason then their deterrent value is gone if they are known to be tied up somewhere.

For your narrative it should probably be subsector forces that are TL12 or so and not so well equipped or led.
Yeah, the narrative isn't really surprising if they're just yokel forces, but even TL 12 forces should be able to walk all over TL 5 forces, I feel. I think my big concern was my mistaken expectation that TL15 forces should be able to wade through TL 5 forces without much concern for tactics. I think the takeaway here is that TL15 isn't nearly as big an edge as I had expected and felt it should be. Cavemen vs WW2 Marines would be TL0 vs TL5, and I think it would be a greater disparity. (I realize this opens another can of worms.)

I also feel some of the canon designs are fairly poor, like a warship with 2 armor and flavor text of "A thirty–thousand–ton Light carrier is the centrepiece of many planetary navies." So I can see it being the centerpiece of planetary navies right until it comes under fire, and then its the wreckage of many planetary navies.
 
Air superiority is the secret sauce for TL15 over TL5. Freedom of movement, freedom of information via reconnaissance. Easily jammed or destroyed sensors hiding attack forces, coming in at very high speed.

Battle Dress marines are effectively small tanks compared to TL5 infantry, but fusion weapons are pretty much overkill on soft target.

But, don't forget, in the end, its boots on the ground that holds territory. Interfacing with civilian and guerrilla forces is always, ALWAYS, a nightmare. Never forget that scene from James Bonds "For Your Eyes Only" when they put the explosive on the back of the head of the guy in the hardshell diving suit. RPGs are actually effective against battle dress.

"You try to hit Krako, you'll get scrapped from every window in the street."
 
Air superiority is the secret sauce for TL15 over TL5. Freedom of movement, freedom of information via reconnaissance. Easily jammed or destroyed sensors hiding attack forces, coming in at very high speed. ...
And night vision, thermal imaging, and so forth. Night belongs to the marines, at least in this setting. Jumping from a high altitude g-carrier flying in darkness, silent night drop from above on jump belts on a moonless night, they could board the ship and take it over without making themselves targets for the ship's cannon. Some of that depends on how familiar the local military is with Imperial tactics - they could hang lights all over the ship and use searchlights to search the sky for attackers from above, but battleships aren't equipped to shoot straight up with anything that would be a danger to armored troops, so they'd need guns on shore to target such attacks and a star flare when they realized an attack was underway but even then, hitting something that can maneuver in three dimensions, drop suddenly like a rock or fly straight up in addition to their left-right evasion, would be very difficult, and the marines would be shooting out the lights, maybe even shooting at the star flare, as they dropped.
 
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