Solar System RPG
- Thread starter Evo Plurion
- Start date
It wasn't my intention to discuss politics. Someone mentioned that high population causes poverty and I was trying to argue otherwise. Sometimes things go off on a tangent. I was trying to explain that in many cases its the culture that causes poverty, that is a barrier to development. I think it all sprouted from someone comparing priorities between building space colonies vs solving the problems of the world.
Yes, it was a discussion of Malthusian poverty, Evo Plurion brought this up. I don't think the Earth is at its maximum carrying capacity and I was explaining that poverty was a result of the way countries are run and the type of societire that exist there. I'll try not to discuss anything further about that here, but let me mention that I did not bring it up, I was responding to someone else.
I think something like Traveller 2050 might be a good product. I don't think it should be a prequel to anything. Basically consider it to be an RPG treatment of the kind of society described in the book "The High Frontier" By Gerard O'Neill. The technology in Traveller terms is sort of mixed. There are no high-gee maneuver drives. The maximum sustainable acceleration over long distances is 0.1-gee. I divide this up into sixths so the lowest acceleration is 0.0167-gee. The lower the acceleration the more efficient the usage of fuel in getting to a certain velocity. A good example of an interplanetary spaceship is the Robert H. Goddard[/] mentioned in "The High Frontier". The R. H. Goddard is a sphere, 60 meters in diameter that rotates to produce 1-gee of simulated gravity outwards at its equator. At its south pole there is a Mass Driver that stretches 5 kilometers behind it and it has a supply of pellets that it accelerates behind it. The Mass driver is Solar powered with solar panels running down its length. The accelleration of the Goddard is very low, closer to 0.0167-gee than to 0.1-gee, it has 9 interior levels with 3 meters between ceiling and floor. Level 1 is at 1-gee, followed by 0.89-g at level 2, 0.78-g at level 3, 0.67-g at level 4, 0.56-g at level 5, 0.44-g at level 6, 0.33-g at level 7, 0.22-g at level 8, and 0.11-g at level 9. we'll assume the acceleration is at 0.0167-g, so when the ship is under acceleration people will tend to stand slightly south of the equator on each of the decks. The ship's drive generates 3.5 tons of force for every megawatt consumed. In traveller terms the tonnage of the ship is 15,500 dtons including the mass driver. I arrived at this figure by cubing the ship's diameter, dividing by 14 and rounding up to the nearest 500. This is more than the volume of a sphere so I'm including the Mass Driver's volume as well. Besides I haven't the time to look up the formula for the volume of a sphere. This sort of ship is not the most high tech for its day and age. Solar power is the main power source for this day and age. Fusion power exists, but its still in its infancy and fusion power plants require alot more maintenance than solar panels and are more expensive to operate. For what few interstellar missions that exist, antimatter power is available. NASA, ESA, RSA, and JSA are building a starship and manufactuing and accumulating antimatter for a Starship that's set to leave for Alpha Centauri within a decade's time. The cost of the starship is around 1 trillion dollars and it will accelerate at 0.0167-g and arrive at the Centauri system in 40 years. The Interstellar consortium (NASA, ESA, RSA, and JSA) is still selecting crew for this mission and many positions are still available. Departure date is yet to be determined (up to the GM), but I'd say before the year 2060. the size of the vessel is similar to the Goddard except it has a different propulsive package at its south pole (matter/antimatter rocket), most of the expense of this mission involves creating this antimatter, the cost of the starship itslef is nothing, it also has a solar powered mass driver packed away for when it arrives at the Centauri System. Another technology is Robotics, I'd say AI technology would be at TL16 fot this setting.
Yes, it was a discussion of Malthusian poverty, Evo Plurion brought this up. I don't think the Earth is at its maximum carrying capacity and I was explaining that poverty was a result of the way countries are run and the type of societire that exist there. I'll try not to discuss anything further about that here, but let me mention that I did not bring it up, I was responding to someone else.
I think something like Traveller 2050 might be a good product. I don't think it should be a prequel to anything. Basically consider it to be an RPG treatment of the kind of society described in the book "The High Frontier" By Gerard O'Neill. The technology in Traveller terms is sort of mixed. There are no high-gee maneuver drives. The maximum sustainable acceleration over long distances is 0.1-gee. I divide this up into sixths so the lowest acceleration is 0.0167-gee. The lower the acceleration the more efficient the usage of fuel in getting to a certain velocity. A good example of an interplanetary spaceship is the Robert H. Goddard[/] mentioned in "The High Frontier". The R. H. Goddard is a sphere, 60 meters in diameter that rotates to produce 1-gee of simulated gravity outwards at its equator. At its south pole there is a Mass Driver that stretches 5 kilometers behind it and it has a supply of pellets that it accelerates behind it. The Mass driver is Solar powered with solar panels running down its length. The accelleration of the Goddard is very low, closer to 0.0167-gee than to 0.1-gee, it has 9 interior levels with 3 meters between ceiling and floor. Level 1 is at 1-gee, followed by 0.89-g at level 2, 0.78-g at level 3, 0.67-g at level 4, 0.56-g at level 5, 0.44-g at level 6, 0.33-g at level 7, 0.22-g at level 8, and 0.11-g at level 9. we'll assume the acceleration is at 0.0167-g, so when the ship is under acceleration people will tend to stand slightly south of the equator on each of the decks. The ship's drive generates 3.5 tons of force for every megawatt consumed. In traveller terms the tonnage of the ship is 15,500 dtons including the mass driver. I arrived at this figure by cubing the ship's diameter, dividing by 14 and rounding up to the nearest 500. This is more than the volume of a sphere so I'm including the Mass Driver's volume as well. Besides I haven't the time to look up the formula for the volume of a sphere. This sort of ship is not the most high tech for its day and age. Solar power is the main power source for this day and age. Fusion power exists, but its still in its infancy and fusion power plants require alot more maintenance than solar panels and are more expensive to operate. For what few interstellar missions that exist, antimatter power is available. NASA, ESA, RSA, and JSA are building a starship and manufactuing and accumulating antimatter for a Starship that's set to leave for Alpha Centauri within a decade's time. The cost of the starship is around 1 trillion dollars and it will accelerate at 0.0167-g and arrive at the Centauri system in 40 years. The Interstellar consortium (NASA, ESA, RSA, and JSA) is still selecting crew for this mission and many positions are still available. Departure date is yet to be determined (up to the GM), but I'd say before the year 2060. the size of the vessel is similar to the Goddard except it has a different propulsive package at its south pole (matter/antimatter rocket), most of the expense of this mission involves creating this antimatter, the cost of the starship itslef is nothing, it also has a solar powered mass driver packed away for when it arrives at the Centauri System. Another technology is Robotics, I'd say AI technology would be at TL16 fot this setting.
Evo Plurion
SOC-12
Anyway...
One of the things I've enjoyed about Traveller's Third Imperium setting over the years is that communication is limited to the speed of travel. Obviously, a Solar System setting would be quite different in this area. However, at a time in which humans live and work on the Moon, Mars, the asteroids, Jovian moons, and countless orbital, LaGrange and deep space habitats, what might personal communication be like?
From one planet to another it won't be instantaneous. On June 28, 2204 for example, it will take about 51.58 minutes for radio signals to travel from Earth to the Jovian System*. That's more than an hour and a half for one exchange. An Earth-Moon exchange would take about 3 seconds - almost instantaneous, but not enough so that Lunar citizens will be chatting via cell-phone links with their Terran friends. So my guess is that inter-world communication in such a setting would be somewhat more complex and difficult than intercontinental communication is today. And actual interplanetary communication would be much more so, depending on the facilities available.
So...
In my tiny apartment on sub-level 18 of the Con-Amalgamate 27 mining complex on Io, I sit in my apartment and compose a message to my wife on Earth. I tell her how miss her and that I'm sorry I keep getting these lousy assignments, that I dream of being with her again when I've made enough money for us to move into a lower-rad sector of the city. My company-assigned AI saves the message and advises me that it will be sent in two hours due to the bottleneck in civilian bandwidth. Con-Am isn't too generous when it comes to renting out bandwidth for its employees.
Three hours later, my wife and her lover are interrupted by her personal AI's soothing voice announcing the arrival of my message. After they're done, while he's using my shower, she watches me pour my heart out on one of the household terminals and laughs.
*This information courtesy of Starry Night - an extremely cool astronomy program and one of my favourite collections of bits on my hard drive.
One of the things I've enjoyed about Traveller's Third Imperium setting over the years is that communication is limited to the speed of travel. Obviously, a Solar System setting would be quite different in this area. However, at a time in which humans live and work on the Moon, Mars, the asteroids, Jovian moons, and countless orbital, LaGrange and deep space habitats, what might personal communication be like?
From one planet to another it won't be instantaneous. On June 28, 2204 for example, it will take about 51.58 minutes for radio signals to travel from Earth to the Jovian System*. That's more than an hour and a half for one exchange. An Earth-Moon exchange would take about 3 seconds - almost instantaneous, but not enough so that Lunar citizens will be chatting via cell-phone links with their Terran friends. So my guess is that inter-world communication in such a setting would be somewhat more complex and difficult than intercontinental communication is today. And actual interplanetary communication would be much more so, depending on the facilities available.
So...
In my tiny apartment on sub-level 18 of the Con-Amalgamate 27 mining complex on Io, I sit in my apartment and compose a message to my wife on Earth. I tell her how miss her and that I'm sorry I keep getting these lousy assignments, that I dream of being with her again when I've made enough money for us to move into a lower-rad sector of the city. My company-assigned AI saves the message and advises me that it will be sent in two hours due to the bottleneck in civilian bandwidth. Con-Am isn't too generous when it comes to renting out bandwidth for its employees.
Three hours later, my wife and her lover are interrupted by her personal AI's soothing voice announcing the arrival of my message. After they're done, while he's using my shower, she watches me pour my heart out on one of the household terminals and laughs.
*This information courtesy of Starry Night - an extremely cool astronomy program and one of my favourite collections of bits on my hard drive.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Ouch...!
Actually the Earth-Moon system is one exception, I already put up with 3 second delays on my cellphone and I'm talking with someone on Earth. Two way conversation is still possible and will be tolerated. The Earth-Moon system and anyone living in the L4/L5 colonies will be tied into a single communication system that streams text, voice and video messages. One will be able to make a phone call to the moon simply by picking up a telephone and dialing the number or using the autodialer available on the web-directory. A direct link would have the shortest response time. Another way is to communicate via the internet, the delay is at a minimum the time delay from the Earth to the Moon, but often longet than that depending on the amount of traffic on the internet at a given time. The Earth-moon system is the maximum extend of "Real Time" two way communications. Also I left out holovideo, it should be possible at this time to project a 3-dimensional image in the air upon suspended dust particles or an arisol dispersed by the projection equipment, these look alot like the ones used in the Star Wars movies. Virtual reality is also a big thing, but you would probably want to be on the same planet with the person(s) your interacting with. Interplanetary communications is called mail. There is e-mail, voice mail, video mail and holovideo mail. A message is prepared, perhaps recorded and then send, its received by the destination server, the receipient is alerted that he has mail, and he plays it back at his own leisure. VR is imposible at interplanetary distances. Besides the Earth-moon telephone network, there is the Mars-phobos-deimos network, the Venus network, the Mercury network. The asteroid belt has no phone network as no two asteroids stay close to one another. Jupiter's moons are to far apart in that system.
Evo Plurion
SOC-12
Tom, I felt it necessary to respond to your last post on the Third World, since, as you say, I was the one who brought it up. However, the others are right to remind us that such discussions should be continued elsewhere, so I posted a thread entitled from "Solar System RPG" thread... on the Random Static board.
M
Malenfant
Guest
For the asteroid belt, you just need relays - put them in as free-floating stations at regular points in the belt. Then a signal can be beamed to those and relayed onto the appropriate station and sent to its destination. Obviously that takes longer, so a true realtime phone network probably won't work, but at least it is possible to send messages.
As for Jupiter's moons, they are not remotely far apart at all. Io orbits Jupiter at 422,000 km, Europa is at 670,000 km, Ganymede is at 1,070,000 km and Callisto is at 1,440,000 km. Lightspeed delay times between those moons are only a matter of a few seconds. You might have a problem with Jupiter's magnetic field screwing up the communications though.
Relays don't do anything to eliminate the time delay that's caused by distance. Two way communication between people becomes tiresome when there is a time delay. Io is at 1.4 light seconds from Jupiter, Europa is 2.23 light seconds, Ganymede is 3.56 light seconds, and Callisto is 4.8 light seconds away. A big problem will occur when someone on Ganymede wants to make a telephone call to someone living on Callisto when the Moons are on opposite sides of their orbit with a total of 16.72 light second delay.
Bill picks up the phone on Ganymede and he wants to call Bob, he dials... one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi, four mississippi, five mississippi, six mississippi, seven mississippi, eight mississippi, nine mississippi, ten mississippi, eleven mississippi, twelve mississippi, thirteen mississippi, fourteen mississippi, fifteen mississippi, sixteen mississippi... Finally bill gets a ring on the phone, the phone rings once, twice, three times, and then Bob picks up the phone. "Hello?" "High Bob! I was just calling to see how your doing." one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi, four mississippi, five mississippi, six mississippi, seven mississippi, eight mississippi, nine mississippi, ten mississippi, eleven mississippi, twelve mississippi, thirteen mississippi, fourteen mississippi, fifteen mississippi, sixteen mississippi... "I'm doing fine Bill. How are you?" "Not bad Bob. We should get together sometime have a night on the town, what do you say?" one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi, four mississippi, five mississippi, six mississippi, seven mississippi, eight mississippi, nine mississippi, ten mississippi, eleven mississippi, twelve mississippi, thirteen mississippi, fourteen mississippi, fifteen mississippi, sixteen mississippi... "Excellent idea, I have time off next tuesday, how does that fit your schedule?" Bob looks at his calendar. "Sorry Bill I'm all booked up for tuesday, but Wednesday is free how does that sound?" ...
This illustrates the difficulty of a two-way communication with a sixteen second delay, this is not a trivial issue.
Bill picks up the phone on Ganymede and he wants to call Bob, he dials... one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi, four mississippi, five mississippi, six mississippi, seven mississippi, eight mississippi, nine mississippi, ten mississippi, eleven mississippi, twelve mississippi, thirteen mississippi, fourteen mississippi, fifteen mississippi, sixteen mississippi... Finally bill gets a ring on the phone, the phone rings once, twice, three times, and then Bob picks up the phone. "Hello?" "High Bob! I was just calling to see how your doing." one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi, four mississippi, five mississippi, six mississippi, seven mississippi, eight mississippi, nine mississippi, ten mississippi, eleven mississippi, twelve mississippi, thirteen mississippi, fourteen mississippi, fifteen mississippi, sixteen mississippi... "I'm doing fine Bill. How are you?" "Not bad Bob. We should get together sometime have a night on the town, what do you say?" one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi, four mississippi, five mississippi, six mississippi, seven mississippi, eight mississippi, nine mississippi, ten mississippi, eleven mississippi, twelve mississippi, thirteen mississippi, fourteen mississippi, fifteen mississippi, sixteen mississippi... "Excellent idea, I have time off next tuesday, how does that fit your schedule?" Bob looks at his calendar. "Sorry Bill I'm all booked up for tuesday, but Wednesday is free how does that sound?" ...
This illustrates the difficulty of a two-way communication with a sixteen second delay, this is not a trivial issue.
M
Malenfant
Guest
so don't treat it as a phone system - treat it more like email or ICQ, where a 15 second delay doesn't matter so much. And 15 seconds is peanuts compared to the 40 minutes or so it takes to call Earth from there.
Evo Plurion
SOC-12
OK - interesting ideas about communication. What about warfare?
How will nuclear and antimatter weapons be used? Will we launch asteroid-busting missiles across huge parts of the System? In other words, if I can launch an antimatter warhead at my enemy on Mars without sending a ship there, why wouldn't I?
I'm very curious about ship-to-ship combat in this kind of setting. (It's gotta have ship-to-ship combat!) What will sensor and weapon ranges be? (See above.) Based on FF&S, I can't see energy weapons being used for anything but point defense.
How will nuclear and antimatter weapons be used? Will we launch asteroid-busting missiles across huge parts of the System? In other words, if I can launch an antimatter warhead at my enemy on Mars without sending a ship there, why wouldn't I?
I'm very curious about ship-to-ship combat in this kind of setting. (It's gotta have ship-to-ship combat!) What will sensor and weapon ranges be? (See above.) Based on FF&S, I can't see energy weapons being used for anything but point defense.
I mentioned previously that a starship that could reach Alpha Centauri in 40 years would cost $1 trillion, now if I take that assumption and work backwards. That starship would require 1,550 tons of antimatter, it is that antimatter that costs $1 trillion. A ton of antimatter costs $645,161,290.30, a kg of antimatter would cost $645,161, and a gram of this stuff would cost $645.16. That is cheap for antimatter, I think at this price other uses can be found for it, such as powering space fighters. Antimatter is a secondary power source in that it must be created before if can power anything. I'm assuming that the means we have used for producing antimatter have become more efficient and have brought the cost down to. An antimatter space fighter could take off from the surface of the Earth in one piece without a space elevator, I think a gram of antimatter might be sufficient for reaching orbit. I don't know that it would necessarily cost $645.16 to reach orbitm but at that price it would revolutionize space travel while leaving interstellar travel hideously expensive. One major consideration is the explosive nature of antimatter and how it could be used as a weapon, it maybe that antimatter would be restricted for use with military vessels, but its so cheap under this assumption, its tempting to think of other uses.
Alright here is some math. R = e^((30km/sec) / (300,000km/sec)) = 1.0001 = initial mass / final mass. That means if you accelerate 999.9kg to 30 kg/sec, you need to convert 100 grams of mass into energy of which 50 grams would have to be antimatter.
The escape velocity from the surface of the Earth is 11.18 km/sec we plug this in:
R = e^((11.18km/sec) / (300,000km/sec)) = 1.000037 or for 999.96 kg of payload to escape Earth, you need to convert 40 grams of mass into energy of which 20 grams must be antimatter. The cost of this antimatter in this setting would be $12,903, so lets say your ticket price for a trip off Earth in an antimatter rocket would be $15,000 to send 1 ton including the passenger and his luggage off EarthI think the space elevator can do i for less than this, but the military might not want to be dependent on a space elevator, so they'd build fighters and warships powered by antimatter that can land and take off anywhere on an Earth sized planet, and can even enter the atmosphere of Jupiter and escape. This flexibility would be a military necessity in that the enemy might knock down infrastructure such as space elevators. The military has the deep pockets to afford antimatter and just about all of its ships run on the stuff.
The escape velocity from the surface of the Earth is 11.18 km/sec we plug this in:
R = e^((11.18km/sec) / (300,000km/sec)) = 1.000037 or for 999.96 kg of payload to escape Earth, you need to convert 40 grams of mass into energy of which 20 grams must be antimatter. The cost of this antimatter in this setting would be $12,903, so lets say your ticket price for a trip off Earth in an antimatter rocket would be $15,000 to send 1 ton including the passenger and his luggage off EarthI think the space elevator can do i for less than this, but the military might not want to be dependent on a space elevator, so they'd build fighters and warships powered by antimatter that can land and take off anywhere on an Earth sized planet, and can even enter the atmosphere of Jupiter and escape. This flexibility would be a military necessity in that the enemy might knock down infrastructure such as space elevators. The military has the deep pockets to afford antimatter and just about all of its ships run on the stuff.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
To put it bluntly Evo, I think you are the one denigrating other people, by claiming the problem is there are simply too many of them. The fact remains that while "the west" (Europe, North America, Australia, Hong Kong, Japan, et.al.) are richer, and can afford to support more people in a higher standard of living than those nations in Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere.
The problem is one of culture, of the cultural values, political systems, and institutions that hold back human potential. There is really not a lot of difference, physically speaking between a European and an African. Besides which, as Tom points out, many of these poorer regions have natural resources that in many cases are far superior to what is enjoyed in more western nations.
Why is the average citizen of Saudi Arabia poorer than the average American? It can't be natural resources, considering the vaste ocean of oil they sit on. it can't be the fact that white people are somehow intellectually or physically superior, can it? If you look at the physical factors alone, there is no explaination.
Therefore the explaination has to lie outside the physical and that really leaves either the metaphysical (or theological, which I don't really buy) or the idealistic realm of ideas.
Ideas matter. You can be sitting on a gold mine. But if for whatever reason you do not mine that gold, you are still a pauper. If its government involvement preventing you from mining it, you are still a pauper.
Your actions are predicated on the ideas that you hold. If you think something is wrong, whether it is or not, no matter how you define it, you won't do it. If a particular action is benefitical, if you don't take that action, then you cannot garner the benefit.
Generally speaking democracies do better than dictatorships. If you read Hayek, it makes sense why it cannot be otherwise. But whether a culture embraces dictatorship or democracy is a function of their cultural values.
Now you may see this as some new form of bigotry, or cultural elitism, but you have to respect the physical difference between the West and the Third World. Whether you like it or not, there has to be an explaination for their relative poverty, that is independent of the physical characteristics of the people there. REmoving the physical, leaves only the culture to explain the disparity.
The universe works the way it does, not how we want it to. Not all ideas are created equal or will result in the same outcome. Claiming the problem is "too many people" does not explain why a high population density place like Hong Kong is so much more successful than lesser dense nations such as Zimbabwe. It doesn't explain the difference between North and South Korea, or East and West Germany. In short, it is a theory that does not fit the facts.
And worse, it is a theory that essentially justifies genocide. And that is biggest problem with the entire overpopulation mantra. If there are too many people, killing enough of them solves the problem. However, if folks like Tom and myself are right, it is simply a matter of changing the minds of those third world nations, getting them to develope liberal democracies, limited government, rule of law, individual freedom and private property rights.
But then, that would be counter to accepted 'wisdom' by some. Because the solution does not match their preconceived notion of how the world should work, and despite repeated failure in culture after culture, across the globe, of authoritarian regimes to support their own people, they still reject the obvious lessons of human history. And look for more easy solutions such as genocide.
The problem is one of culture, of the cultural values, political systems, and institutions that hold back human potential. There is really not a lot of difference, physically speaking between a European and an African. Besides which, as Tom points out, many of these poorer regions have natural resources that in many cases are far superior to what is enjoyed in more western nations.
Why is the average citizen of Saudi Arabia poorer than the average American? It can't be natural resources, considering the vaste ocean of oil they sit on. it can't be the fact that white people are somehow intellectually or physically superior, can it? If you look at the physical factors alone, there is no explaination.
Therefore the explaination has to lie outside the physical and that really leaves either the metaphysical (or theological, which I don't really buy) or the idealistic realm of ideas.
Ideas matter. You can be sitting on a gold mine. But if for whatever reason you do not mine that gold, you are still a pauper. If its government involvement preventing you from mining it, you are still a pauper.
Your actions are predicated on the ideas that you hold. If you think something is wrong, whether it is or not, no matter how you define it, you won't do it. If a particular action is benefitical, if you don't take that action, then you cannot garner the benefit.
Generally speaking democracies do better than dictatorships. If you read Hayek, it makes sense why it cannot be otherwise. But whether a culture embraces dictatorship or democracy is a function of their cultural values.
Now you may see this as some new form of bigotry, or cultural elitism, but you have to respect the physical difference between the West and the Third World. Whether you like it or not, there has to be an explaination for their relative poverty, that is independent of the physical characteristics of the people there. REmoving the physical, leaves only the culture to explain the disparity.
The universe works the way it does, not how we want it to. Not all ideas are created equal or will result in the same outcome. Claiming the problem is "too many people" does not explain why a high population density place like Hong Kong is so much more successful than lesser dense nations such as Zimbabwe. It doesn't explain the difference between North and South Korea, or East and West Germany. In short, it is a theory that does not fit the facts.
And worse, it is a theory that essentially justifies genocide. And that is biggest problem with the entire overpopulation mantra. If there are too many people, killing enough of them solves the problem. However, if folks like Tom and myself are right, it is simply a matter of changing the minds of those third world nations, getting them to develope liberal democracies, limited government, rule of law, individual freedom and private property rights.
But then, that would be counter to accepted 'wisdom' by some. Because the solution does not match their preconceived notion of how the world should work, and despite repeated failure in culture after culture, across the globe, of authoritarian regimes to support their own people, they still reject the obvious lessons of human history. And look for more easy solutions such as genocide.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
Sorry for returning to this thread late, and it looks like Tom and/or Evo has been slammed for beign racist or political. I would like to point out that while Tom may be 'culturalist', that does NOT equal racism. In fact, to put it bluntly, the entire 'overpopulation' meme is racist. It is never that there are too many people in Europe, or Hong Kong. Its there are too many people in the third world, you know, too many of the 'wrong kind of people'.
Ideas affect one's actions. Actions have consequences. Among those consequences is whether you can support your population or not. If the idea is wrong, inconsistent with reality, then the actions resulting from those ideas won't work.
What a culture is, is a collection of ideas held in common by a population of individuals. It can range from the trivial (mode of dress, dietary exclusions) to the severe, (mode of government, concepts concerning similarities and differences amongst people, rights)
We have evidence that a bean stalk is feasible, now, with today's (or at worse, very near future) technology. And we also have the flight of SpaceShip One. These events I think are going to have a profound impact on human culture.
We tend not to do things that we think are impossible, regardless of whether they really are or not. Once we find out how mistaken those concepts are, how they mismatch with reality, the world changes. And as a science fiction game, taking place in one's idea of how history will shake out, we have to take into account those cultures and ideas.
Because really that is what this is all about, a game of ideas about the future, about how humanity will deal with technology, confrontation, other sophonts and the like.
Ideas affect one's actions. Actions have consequences. Among those consequences is whether you can support your population or not. If the idea is wrong, inconsistent with reality, then the actions resulting from those ideas won't work.
What a culture is, is a collection of ideas held in common by a population of individuals. It can range from the trivial (mode of dress, dietary exclusions) to the severe, (mode of government, concepts concerning similarities and differences amongst people, rights)
We have evidence that a bean stalk is feasible, now, with today's (or at worse, very near future) technology. And we also have the flight of SpaceShip One. These events I think are going to have a profound impact on human culture.
We tend not to do things that we think are impossible, regardless of whether they really are or not. Once we find out how mistaken those concepts are, how they mismatch with reality, the world changes. And as a science fiction game, taking place in one's idea of how history will shake out, we have to take into account those cultures and ideas.
Because really that is what this is all about, a game of ideas about the future, about how humanity will deal with technology, confrontation, other sophonts and the like.
M
Malenfant
Guest
No, he was being quite racist - there's no such thing as "culturalist". He was spouting garbage about the arab world and even about Europe that was based on very broad and ignorant blanket statements and the assumption that everyone had to be grateful to the US and accept anything they did without complaint.
That's a ridiculous statement
When you go to the Third World however, you will find that there are many nations that cannot support their populations. That's just plain fact. In some cases, it's down to mismanagement, in others it's down to people being at the mercy of the environment and the nation being too poor.
Now, you can quite convincingly show that in many cases those nations are kept poor by the "First World" nations - because if we didn't maintain the national debts that they owe us then our economies would probably collapse - but that's a seperate issue entirely.
It isn't racist to claim that a nation is overpopulated though. It's nothing to do with having "too many of the wrong kind of people" at all - it's just that the population cannot be supported by that nation's infrastructure (possibly through wilful mismanagement, admittedly), which leads to all sorts of problems as what little resources are present end up being spread too thinly over too many people.
siefertma2
SOC-13
It's funny, I was viewing "Penn & Teller: Bullshit" with a few friends and one of the episodes we watched featured a segment on genetically engineered food crops and the environmentalists who opposed them regardless of their potential to feed the Third World.
They interviewed Noble Prize winning argonomist Norman Borlaug, who helped increased crop yeilds in places like Mexico and India, feeding millions of starving people. One of my friends actually chortled at Borlaug and said, "So this is the guy who is responsible for world overpopulation."
What f-cking balls.
Let starving people die to satisfy one's ecological hysteria or closet racist sentiments. Of course, he has the luxery to turn down food (and by his general figure, it won't hurt him to skip a meal or two), but the rest of the world doesn't have that option.Malenfant said,
I want to talk about the Solar System RPG. Why are you Malenfant, dragging this out of the Mud. I said, I did not want to discuss this further here, but since you insult me by calling me a racist I have no choice to reply. Let me state this fully:
I do not believe in White Supremacy.
I do believe that if someone hates your guts and wants to kill you that you have a right to hate them right back.
If there is a cultural bias in some country against your own, then you have a right to be biased against that culture, since that culture seeks to make a victim out of you and your kind. For example, do you expect the Jews to be open-minded about Nazism, or is the Jews hatred of the Nazis a form of racism?
Now lets get back to the Solar System.
I don't like people who hate Americans because Americans includes me. You may call it racism, but racism has to do with racial characteristics. If I was a racist, it would be something about the way an Arab looks that offends me, but it is their behavior which includes chopping heads off captured Americans that offends me. These were American civilians that were innocent and convienient to grab that were executed. Maybe you feel that we Americans had it comming to us, or perhaps that's just part of their culture that you think we should be open-minded about.
I want to talk about the Solar System RPG. Why are you Malenfant, dragging this out of the Mud. I said, I did not want to discuss this further here, but since you insult me by calling me a racist I have no choice to reply. Let me state this fully:
I do not believe in White Supremacy.
I do believe that if someone hates your guts and wants to kill you that you have a right to hate them right back.
If there is a cultural bias in some country against your own, then you have a right to be biased against that culture, since that culture seeks to make a victim out of you and your kind. For example, do you expect the Jews to be open-minded about Nazism, or is the Jews hatred of the Nazis a form of racism?
Now lets get back to the Solar System.
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
All this talk about the various forms of prejudice got me thinking in game terms...
How would Corporates feel about Belters? Would they appreciate the Belters for their in-depth knowledge of prospecting, mining, and survival in a zero-gee vacuum? Or would the Corporates arrange a few 'accidents' in order to take over an 'abandoned' claim?
How do Orbitals treat Grounders, and vice-versa?
What about the Spacers in general? How well do they get along with people who have NOT spent their entire lives surrounded by canned air and steel?
IMTU there is a church based upon Luddite philosophy. This is the idea that ALL technology is de-humanizing, and therefore must be destroyed. The Luddite Church is in direct conflict with anyone who uses technology, whether for recreation or need (such as a heart pacemaker).
There is ALWAYS some way to determine that "they" are somehow not as good as "us", and that "we" need to do something about "them". This is part of humaniti and will be for a long time.
Therefore, I've incorporated it into MTU. Not in any overt sense where I require the players to express themselves in a hateful manner, but in more of a 'background' sense, where it is part of the social environment.
Comments?
How would Corporates feel about Belters? Would they appreciate the Belters for their in-depth knowledge of prospecting, mining, and survival in a zero-gee vacuum? Or would the Corporates arrange a few 'accidents' in order to take over an 'abandoned' claim?
How do Orbitals treat Grounders, and vice-versa?
What about the Spacers in general? How well do they get along with people who have NOT spent their entire lives surrounded by canned air and steel?
IMTU there is a church based upon Luddite philosophy. This is the idea that ALL technology is de-humanizing, and therefore must be destroyed. The Luddite Church is in direct conflict with anyone who uses technology, whether for recreation or need (such as a heart pacemaker).
There is ALWAYS some way to determine that "they" are somehow not as good as "us", and that "we" need to do something about "them". This is part of humaniti and will be for a long time.
Therefore, I've incorporated it into MTU. Not in any overt sense where I require the players to express themselves in a hateful manner, but in more of a 'background' sense, where it is part of the social environment.
Comments?
siefertma2
SOC-13
...or perhaps they can pull a few strings to get an Earth-based government to send a warship to the belt to seize the resourses of the belt "for all of humanity to share" while negotiating in the proverbial "smoke-filled rooms" with that same principality for the exclusive mining rights.
Or, that "we" knows what is best for "them" and must therefore tell "them" what do...at gunpoint if necessary.
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
Such activities provide an undercurrent that helps keep the entire story flowing along.
-KR-
-KR-
