Small ship universe

[rancke]

Both are blatantly ignored in the rules and adventures...

I wonder what would happen if I wrote an adventure involving a jump to such a system and mentioned that since the destination world is five days inside the solar jump limit, freight and passenger charges are doubled. Would the editor reject it as uncanonical? What if I said freight and passenger charges were unaffected despite the world being far inside the solar jump limit? Would the editor reject it as unrealistic?

:devil::devil::devil::devil:

Hans

 

[aramis]

I wonder what would happen if I wrote an adventure involving a jump to such a system and mentioned that since the destination world is five days inside the solar jump limit, freight and passenger charges are doubled. Would the editor reject it as uncanonical? What if I said freight and passenger charges were unaffected despite the world being far inside the solar jump limit? Would the editor reject it as unrealistic?

:devil::devil::devil::devil:

Hans

Try it and see... somewhere around here there's a list of worlds and in-system travel times to/from 100 diameters.

 

[GypsyComet]

If you can ...

Many cases, the ecosphere is well inside the large star's 100 diameter limit.

Makes you wonder what is in the Antares system, because you have to *want* to explore that close to a supergiant.

 

[nDervish]

There are two aspects: the exclusion zone, and the no travel past the zone effect. The former is blackletter canon; the latter is argued a lot, but appears to me to be canonical.

Not meaning to ignite any old debates, but what in canon do you consider to support the idea that passing by realspace masses will pull a ship out of jumpspace prematurely? (Or does the ship precipitate out at the normal time, only to discover that it has crossed a shorter distance than intended?)

I've always believed the canon to be that, once a ship jumps, it has absolutely no interaction with the normal universe until the jump is complete and "absolutely no interaction" means that it can't be yanked out if it passes by a star. So, when you say that masking appears canonical to you, that makes me wonder whether I missed something relevant.

Also, among those who hold that stars will pull you out of jump, is there any consensus on the ramifications of this? (e.g., Doesn't that mean a J6 ship can effectively do a J1 in ~30 hours by trying to jump 5 parsecs past the real destination, but passing within 100d so that it exits jump "prematurely"?)

If you know of any old discussions on the topic, feel free to just point me at them instead of rehashing the details here.

 

[rancke]

Not meaning to ignite any old debates, but what in canon do you consider to support the idea that passing by realspace masses will pull a ship out of jumpspace prematurely? (Or does the ship precipitate out at the normal time, only to discover that it has crossed a shorter distance than intended?)

A statement by Marc Miller to that effect to one of the authors of GT:FT who asked him specifically.

And the ship not pulled out prematurely. It's stopped by the realspace mass and pulled out at the normal time for jump field decay, i.e. in 168 hours +/- 10%.

I suppose that technically speaking private statements by Marc Miller is not canon at all.

Anyway, as Wil said, whatever the canon status of jump masking (objects blocking jump), jump shadowing (destination worlds orbiting inside jump limit of its star) is solid canon, yet it is mostly ignored by the basic rules and the adventures nontheless. IIRC it is mentioned in some setting material (some system maps show the solar jump limit).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Not meaning to ignite any old debates, but what in canon do you consider to support the idea that passing by realspace masses will pull a ship out of jumpspace prematurely? (Or does the ship precipitate out at the normal time, only to discover that it has crossed a shorter distance than intended?)

Marc said so to a GT author who asked him. Marc said so to Hunter during T20 development.

Moreover, Marc makes it explicit in T5 despite people grousing about it.

I've always believed the canon to be that, once a ship jumps, it has absolutely no interaction with the normal universe until the jump is complete and "absolutely no interaction" means that it can't be yanked out if it passes by a star. So, when you say that masking appears canonical to you, that makes me wonder whether I missed something relevant.

So did I. Marc disagrees. IMTU, Marc can be wrong.

Also, among those who hold that stars will pull you out of jump, is there any consensus on the ramifications of this? (e.g., Doesn't that mean a J6 ship can effectively do a J1 in ~30 hours by trying to jump 5 parsecs past the real destination, but passing within 100d so that it exits jump "prematurely"?)

It's explained as a quantum wave collapse situation - it comes out no earlier temporally; it just exits at the point of exit.

If this effect is "any time during the jump", it gets far more ugly. I consider this completely problematic - I only check at entry and exit, and only at the moment of each.

I've noted in the T5 playtest forum that this means a larger monitor than your ship can go slow troll your jump entry point to blast you to smithereens. The smaller surviving ships can not escape.

Also, it has nasty ramifications on trade - you can't let a Type TI jump from where that Type R just did, or even get within 100 diameters of the TI of its jump point - if it does, you'll have an extremely annoyed Type R captain at the end of the week.

If you know of any old discussions on the topic, feel free to just point me at them instead of rehashing the details here.

That's the majority of it.
I can't find the list of travel times in system from jump limit to mainworld for the Marches - it's around here somewhere. One world is over a month of N-Space inside the gravity well...

If you have the masking (no jump past), it means the GM can drop you out mid point for story purposes by saying your jumpline crossed some rock's well...

 

[sabredog]

Not meaning to ignite any old debates, but what in canon do you consider to support the idea that passing by realspace masses will pull a ship out of jumpspace prematurely? (Or does the ship precipitate out at the normal time, only to discover that it has crossed a shorter distance than intended?)

I've always believed the canon to be that, once a ship jumps, it has absolutely no interaction with the normal universe until the jump is complete and "absolutely no interaction" means that it can't be yanked out if it passes by a star. So, when you say that masking appears canonical to you, that makes me wonder whether I missed something relevant.

This is how I have always interpreted it, but decided at some point in the distant past that having some wandering planet/stellar nursery/black hole/whatsis come unexpectedly across your path while even in jump space might affect the ship. Of course this was in the early days of the game when canon wasn't viewed as something carved in stone.

IMTU these events can happen, and when the ship jumps the Navigator rolls for success which is separate from the usual misjump roll. 8+ is success with the Nav Skill as a positive DM. Naturally it's a pretty easy roll, and failing it usually only means the ship comes out of jump (provided it didn't misjump) in an awkward spot in the target system - like in the real space traffic corridors or something.

If the roll is failed then it is because some anomaly (or dropped digit in the calculations) got in the way and dropped the ship out of jump. It's rare and usually happens around certain areas marked on the maps so players know the riskier areas to jump near. If you have a Nav-3+ score you can usually avoid the worst of the known ones, and if not, Pilots can be hired to get you through them. But once in a while players roll really badly and it is an opportunity to go off on some random adventure.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, face it, sonny, if your destination insystem is much more than 10 AU, you might as well make a micro-jump.

I was speaking disparagingly of his use of T4, rob.

IMTU, Marc can be wrong.

:toast:

Oh, and nicely done, nDervish! A thread hijack following my thread resurrect! /polite applause/ :rofl:

 

[aramis]

IMTU, Marc can be wrong.

:toast:

Oh, puh-leaze... it's not like I run in the OTU with a "Marc is the prophet" attitude.

It's obvious Marc hasn't put enough thought on the matter of Jump Shadowing and its implications for the military.

 

[nDervish]

Marc said so to a GT author who asked him. Marc said so to Hunter during T20 development.

Moreover, Marc makes it explicit in T5 despite people grousing about it.

OK, that sounds pretty canonical to me. Thanks!

If this effect is "any time during the jump", it gets far more ugly. I consider this completely problematic - I only check at entry and exit, and only at the moment of each.

Agreed. (Fortunately, I have no problem ignoring canon, I just like to know what it is first.)

Oh, and nicely done, nDervish! A thread hijack following my thread resurrect! /polite applause/ :rofl:

Not bad for a new guy...

 

[Carlobrand]

...I've noted in the T5 playtest forum that this means a larger monitor than your ship can go slow troll your jump entry point to blast you to smithereens. The smaller surviving ships can not escape.

I'm afraid I don't understand that "go slow troll" bit.

...Also, it has nasty ramifications on trade - you can't let a Type TI jump from where that Type R just did, or even get within 100 diameters of the TI of its jump point - if it does, you'll have an extremely annoyed Type R captain at the end of the week.

I was under the impression any two stellar systems would be moving slightly with respect to each other - and the target planet is moving as well, and the time in jump is different from ship to ship. Wouldn't that mean the follow ship precipitates out at a different point and time - at least different enough not to endanger the first ship?

...If you have the masking (no jump past), it means the GM can drop you out mid point for story purposes by saying your jumpline crossed some rock's well...

Could also have pirates or Zhodani or Sword Worlders operating from some iceball they accidentally "bumped into" in interstellar space. You'd have the devil of the time finding them.

 

[aramis]

I'm afraid I don't understand that "go slow troll" bit.

Fishing term for dragging a line slowly through the water. Also used for a boat slowly moving around looking for fish.

I was under the impression any two stellar systems would be moving slightly with respect to each other - and the target planet is moving as well, and the time in jump is different from ship to ship. Wouldn't that mean the follow ship precipitates out at a different point and time - at least different enough not to endanger the first ship?

Not of need, especially since, at any given point, there are places where you're going to be moving towards the opposing system while the systems are receeding, or vice versa...

Still, even then, a monitor could calculate your path, and pull you back out in the originating system. An unpleasant system control person could direct a ship to your departure point, as well.

Could also have pirates or Zhodani or Sword Worlders operating from some iceball they accidentally "bumped into" in interstellar space. You'd have the devil of the time finding them.

 

[Orr]

(Or does the ship precipitate out at the normal time, only to discover that it has crossed a shorter distance than intended?)

Premature in distance, not premature in time.

Of course, as Aramis correctly writes, you can ignore all of it.

 

[rancke]

My suggestion would be that you zip the whole distance in the first moments of the jump, then stay there for the week it takes for the jump field to dissipate. Thus you'll be caught midways only if there is a mass to intercept you in position at the start of the jump. You get caught by that mass moments after entering jump and get precipotated out a week later. Anything that moves into your position after you've left is too late to influence you.


Hans

 

[Fritz_Brown]

If this effect is "any time during the jump", it gets far more ugly. I consider this completely problematic - I only check at entry and exit, and only at the moment of each.

If you have the masking (no jump past), it means the GM can drop you out mid point for story purposes by saying your jumpline crossed some rock's well...

Exactly, Aramis. I use this as one explanation for those ships that never reach their destination - they're floating in interstellar space after encountering a rogue gravity well and precipitating out of jump.

It also means you can build an eccentric system (one or more orbits out of the elliptic), and require players to jump through some hoops to get in-system.

Could also have pirates or Zhodani or Sword Worlders operating from some iceball they accidentally "bumped into" in interstellar space. You'd have the devil of the time finding them.

Exactly. :devil:

My suggestion would be that you zip the whole distance in the first moments of the jump, then stay there for the week it takes for the jump field to dissipate. Thus you'll be caught midways only if there is a mass to intercept you in position at the start of the jump. You get caught by that mass moments after entering jump and get precipitated out a week later. Anything that moves into your position after you've left is too late to influence you.

This is where space being really big and empty works in your favor, Hans - you don't *have* to do this to have almost every ship make it to their destination. I would only "check" if I had a reason to do so. Well, I might "check" every time if I want my players to stay nervous about jump. :devil:

To combine ideas....
A new route is opened up by a step-up in jump capability (J3 is moderately new in MTU, and is definitely not pervasive), but the first couple of ships have been lost. It's blamed on the new technology being unreliable. But, a ship that has the capability to mine water/fuel tries it, and discovers a black body (huge iceball) out there, as well as two ships with dead crews. They mine some fuel, salvage the other ships, and decide to go pirate. The "new" route becomes unusable (though some adventurous soul regularly tries it, only to fall prey to the pirates when they precipitate out), but the black body becomes a perfect place to "go to ground" for the pirates. (Until, of course, the body moves sufficiently to be out of the route.)

 

[Timerover51]

A very interesting thread, starts with small ship verses large ship universes, wanders into the morality of Zhodani psionics use, then moves into a consideration of the mechanics of jumping, and what might mess up a jump. As this is the "My Traveller Universe" forum, there is no "one" right answer. It is whatever works for you and me. So I will toss out my 2 Credits worth.

With respect to jumping, the system that I go with is based on the picture that appears on page 33 of Fighting Ships, Supplement 9, covering the jump ship. That shows a jump ship using an extensive system of cables to extend the volume of the jump field, mixed with H. Beam Piper's hyperdrive system in Space Viking, where if you come out too close to a massive gravitational body, your collapsing hyperspace field kicks you away from said body. Im my universe, a ship's hull is covered by a network of cables which serve to generate the jump field. When you jump, your drive generates an intense gravitational field, creating a temporary "wormhole", and then throws your ship through the wormhole. The harder the throw, i.e. the more energy expended, the greater the distance. Once in, you are not worried about being precipitated out by gravitational bodies between you and the jump target, at least to start. However, the wormhole field is only good for 168 hours or so, and begins to weaken close to the end of that time. At that point, if your jump passes in sufficiently close proximity to a large gravitational mass, you are precipitated out of jump space earlier than you want. If your destination planet is on the opposite side of the sun from your departure system, you will be bounced out somewhere around 50 to 100 diameters away from the system's primary star. I figure that a mass about the size of the Earth's Moon would be sufficient to do that. So if your destination system has an Asteroid Belt, you might have some problems, with the same for any outlying gas giants. That is not how I would do it if I were writing my own novel, but you play the hand that you are dealt.

I will be back later with some ideas on the small ship verses large ship, civilian ship verses navy ship issue.

 

[Ishmael]

I think it would be best not to differentiate 'small ship' and 'big ship' as a matter of artificial limits set by rules.

The real limiter of ship size is structural where the cube-square law would come into effect.
This would make bigger ships have lesser performance relative to smaller ships. They would either be limited by their relative lack of structure, or else be limited by lack of drives lost to allow for the increase in structure needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law

Heat management would be more difficult as well.

This also applies to animals.

Small ships dart.
Big ships wallow.

 

[mike wightman]

Unfortunately that is not the way the OTU works.

The small ship universe was the default until High Guard started to re-write the paradigm.

By the time Traveller was revised in '81 High Guard 2 had firmly established a large ship paradigm for the OTU. Shame that the revised rules continued with the small ship rules and even messed those up

 

[far-trader]

Small ships dart.
Big ships wallow.

Precisely. And so it is in the small ship universe of LBB2. That is a big part of why I prefer it.

But then HG came along and threw out that better meme in the name of kewl ships

Yeah, I was swept up in it too, they are kewl to design and battle huge fleets... but for role playing, for Travellers, not really much use. And for other reasons a bit of a stretch to the belief suspenders.


Not sure how I missed drkem99's post back on page 5 first time around but I think he nailed most of my own take and sentiments:

(snippage - click back with the arrow after his name there)

 

[Ishmael]

Unfortunately that is not the way the OTU works.

Fortunately, a discussion in the "In My Traveller Universe" area need not be limited by OTU concerns.
Given that the OTU seems to totally ignore something so basic to the sciences and engineering, I'm glad for that.