Sleuthing the Imperial Navy

[Hal]

Hi Guys,
I got around (finally) to entering into Excel, all of the counters for the Imperium (both Army and Navy) from the Fifth Frontier War boardgame. My goal was to try and create something for use with my own "IMTU" primarily because I am only TOO aware of how people can not agree on things within the game and High Guard etc.

I thought for giggles, I should arrange my "table" of counters for the navy based on Jump capabilities, knowing for example, that just because a counter has a listed "jump" rating of 1 doesn't neccessarily mean that the technology level of the world producing it has to be TL 10 or TL 9. It could be a TL 12 world that was trying to balance a lower jump rating with say, a higher Armor rating - or something to that effect. I note too, that ships that have a Jump 1 rating could be built with twice or three times the rated fuel requirements - and just make 3 consecutive Jump 1 transits without need to refuel. Then I figured I'd cross check the worlds that certain "Colonial Navies" were to have come from, and noted that Jump 1 counters come from worlds that are either TL 9 or TL 10. Oddly enough, All Colonial counters with Jump 2 came from worlds that had TL 11. (note: I am going by the Unit's Identification as to which world produced it). Then it occurred to me that all Ships with a Jump Rating of 6 had to be produced by worlds that had a TL of 15.

What is intriguing to note however, that there are the following numbers of counters that provoke thought as to their likely tech levels.

02 Imperial BatRons with Jump-2.
15 Imperial BatRons with Jump-3.
01 Imperial CruRon with Jump-3.
06 Colonial BatRons with Jump-4.
08 Colonial CruRons with Jump-4.
16 Imperial BatRons with Jump-4.
12 Imperial CruRons with Jump-4.
04 Imperial CruRons with Jump-5.
04 Imperial CruRons with Jump-6.

The odd thing about Colonial units is that they are supposed to be produced with local subsector resources. One could presume that a good number of those fleets likely represent either the minimum required Tech level to have the jump rating the counter represents, or perhaps 1 lower as those units attempt to build ships according to their desires/doctrines rather than to cutting edge capabilities. In each instance where a Colonial Navy has a world identifier on it - the Tech level for Jump matches the Tech level for the listed world. One could almost wonder, does this seeming rule be true for the others?

In any event, rumor has it that Imperial Navies are supposed to be cutting edge technology. Why would there be a BatRon with Jump 3 assuming that the ship were made with cutting edge technology at either of TL 14 or TL 15?

Thoughts are welcome of course

 

[aramis]

Not EVERYTHING in warfare is maneuver. Much is "Hearts and Minds." A batron from a core system might be there to show the flag more than be an effective. Or it may have been a former colonial ship turned imperial due to post-casualty field restaffing...

 

[sgbrown]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Not EVERYTHING in warfare is maneuver. Much is "Hearts and Minds." A batron from a core system might be there to show the flag more than be an effective. Or it may have been a former colonial ship turned imperial due to post-casualty field restaffing...

Good points. The comment on replacing combat loses (post-casualty field restaffing) particularly resonates with me because it results in a mix of people as well - and highlights the potential for a lot of variations that don't make sense on paper to occur in the "fog of war." Here's a few other possiblities to consider:

Just plain old economics with a Imperial squadraon assigned to the "backwaters" having old outdated equipment

... or politics with an important official having financial or other ties to a lower tech level ship yard (possible adventure thread to expose official wrongdoing)

... or increased cargo and lab space to allow for more flexibility at the cost of some strategic mobility (no Tactical ability lost as jump does not really do anything for you in actual combat - except provide for potential excape.)

Probably a lot of other possiblities as well. Depending on which you use, the actual TL may still be quite high/cutting edge or it may be not just low tech but low quality and/or have few replacement parts as well.

 

[flykiller]

Why would there be a BatRon with Jump 3 assuming that the ship were made with cutting edge technology at either of TL 14 or TL 15?

the imperial navy is probably designed to go anywhere at any time, so J4 would be standard. colonial navies, however, may be concerned only with defense, and only in a particular district. J3, 2, or even 1 may be sufficient.

 

[mike wightman]

Dig out High Guard and try to design a battle ship or cruiser with maneuver/agility 6/6, jump 4 (and fuel required), a high spinal factor, and a high armour factor

Note that the designs in S9 have either J3 and M/A 6/6, or they are jump 4 and M/A 5/5

Also, check the reverse of those FFW counters and you'll see that some of them have a higher jump number when damaged.

 

[The Oz]

One thing I've noticed about the Imperial Colonial squadrons is that all the colonial reinforcements are Jump-4.

If you assume (as Hal does, and I agree with him) that the homeworld tech determines the jump rating of the colonial squadron, then these reinforcements must come from other hi-tech (13+)worlds in the Spinward Marches. And there are enough worlds to do it. Mora, Glisten, Strouden, Lunion, Palique and Trin could do it, since Pop-9 worlds apparently have 2 colonial squadrons, and Pop-A worlds have 3 squadrons.

 

[Hal]

Ok, recapping what we know, but utilizing a slew of individual minds to pursue different thought processes (THANKS GUYS!), here are some thoughts in continuation:

A) Not all ships are intended to have the best "JUMP" capability possible because there are other things to do with the valuable volume otherwise taken by fuel and engines. Lab spaces, fabrication and repair spaces, galley spaces, a more realistic crew rosters (ever try running a 24 hour shift for those smaller ships with their smaller crews?) as well as perhaps more armor.

B) Not all ships were built within the last few years. As a consequence, some of the ships will be living out their lifetimes, and some, will be nearly to the end of their useful lifetimes before they're finally scrapped. In Fifth Frontier War the game, we see evidence of Imperial BatRons with Jump 2's and Jump 3's. It is perhaps possible that those units represent Imperial cutting edge ships nearing the end of their lifetimes.

C) TL 14 was considered to be cutting edge just Prior to the start of the Rim Wars. Since the Rim Wars started in 990, and CT states the FFW starts in 1107, ships that were built at prior to the Rim Wars would have been built at TL 14. Ships that were subsequently built, were built around TL 15 or so - possibly in very few select areas. Page 34 of the Referee's Sourcebook states that TL 15 begins in 1000, which was 2 years prior to the end of the Rim War. So, 107 years later, we've got ships still around, but TL 14 *IF* they were built using cutting edge 14 in the Spinward Marches.

Perhaps, those B2 and B3 BatRons were built using TL 14 Technology, and were intended to live out their useful lifetimes before the Emperor would authorize new hull construction. The rest of the BatRons were constructed using Cutting Edge TL 15 technology, but were built as they were for doctrinal reasons rather than technological limitations.

Breakdowns by Jump number for all Imperial hulls:
10.5% - Jump 2
30.2% - Jump 3
48.6% - Jump 4
05.2% - Jump 5
05.2% - Jump 6

If broken down by Cruiser and by Unit type:
Colonial:
Jump 2 - 16%
Jump 3 - 08%
Jump 4 - 75%

Imperial:
Jump 2 - 00%
Jump 3 - 23%
Jump 4 - 46%
Jump 5 - 15%
Jump 6 - 15%

By Battle Squadron and type:
Colonial:
Jump 2 - 00%
Jump 3 - 12%
Jump 4 - 87%
Jump 5 - 00%
Jump 6 - 00%

Imperial:
Jump 2 - 06%
Jump 3 - 43%
Jump 4 - 50%
Jump 5 - 00%
Jump 6 - 00%


Kinda makes ya wonder a little at what kind of "doctrine" would produce those kinds of numbers

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Dig out High Guard and try to design a battle ship or cruiser with maneuver/agility 6/6, jump 4 (and fuel required), a high spinal factor, and a high armour factor

Note that the designs in S9 have either J3 and M/A 6/6, or they are jump 4 and M/A 5/5

Also, check the reverse of those FFW counters and you'll see that some of them have a higher jump number when damaged.

Hi Sigg, since you brought it up

If a squadron is supposed to be at 100% effectiveness when undamaged, and when damaged, drops to the other stats (or increases in a few instances) what would account for that? I can think of two possibilities. The first is that it is generally presumed that the slower ships will get damaged first, leaving as the likely survivors the faster ships. The second is that there are two separate classes of ship working together, but that it always moves at the slowest common denominator. It would almost seem likely that you need BOTH categories for the reverse side of a counter to be faster jumpwise at damaged state than at "100% undamaged state". Hmmmmm. Any other thoughts?

 

[mike wightman]

Something else I noticed.

If you look at the Invasion Earth counters and compare with the colonial reinforcements in FFW

in IE there are units

BatRon 3-3-6
and
BatRon 5-4-8

in FFW these could be the colonial units
BatRon B4 3-3-6
BatRon B4 5-4-8

Note also that the most common BatRon in IE is 4-4-4, and the most common FFW IN BatRon is B3 4-4-4.

 

[Hal]

Using a Jump-4 set up for a 200,000 dton hull, I can see where it would be advantageous to do so.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Ship: Test BatRon
Class: BB
Type: BB
Architect: Hal
Tech Level: 14

USP
BB-S326AH4-E96608-999S9-0 MCr 239,797.150 200 KTons
Bat Bear Y 6 YE616 Crew: 1805
Bat Z A ZMA1A TL: 14

Cargo: 5,409.500 Frozen Watch Fuel: 60,000.000 EP: 20,000.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 200
Craft: 4 x 550T Fuel Skimmers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: Y = 39 Z = 60

Architects Fee: MCr 2,397.972 Cost in Quantity: MCr 191,837.720</pre>[/QUOTE]Granted, I wasn't trying to build a SUPER ship so much as test the concept of how much I could put into the hull. I suspect that had I wanted to, I could have increased the number of 100 dton bays within the design and made it work reasonably well. I wonder what that same hull could do with only Jump-2? I would almost suspect that I'd have to load up the hull with some auxillary craft to fill in the space savings.

I guess that brings me to the question:

What would you do with the extra space volume if you were asked to build a TL 14 Jump 2 BatRon qualified Hull?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Hal:
Kinda makes ya wonder a little at what kind of "doctrine" would produce those kinds of numbers

Hal,

Among other things, the squadrons with low jump ratings could simply be a result of the Imperial doctrinal shift that took place prior to the Fifth Frontier War. It's mentioned in a few places (S:9 IIRC and others like SMC) that the FFW marked a doctrinal change for the Imperial Navy.

Before the fifth war(1), the Imperium had employed a doctrine of 'crustal' defense. That is, they planned on meeting the invading Outworld Coalition Forces at the border and defeating them there.(2)

Sometime prior to the fifth war, doctrine was changed.(3) Instead of meeting and defeating the Outworld forces at the border, Imperial doctrine shifted to one that relied on 'islands of defense'. Heavily garrisoned and fortified systems would as a bastions from which the fleet would operate against the invaders.(4) Systems like Jewell, Regina, Efate, and others became 'forts' from which the fleet would safely sortie in a series of counterattacks.

Keeping this doctrinal change in mind, the Imperial squadrons with low jump ratings could be classes of vessels built with the old 'crustal doctrine' in mind while the squadrons with higher jump ratings could have been built for the new 'islands of resistence' doctrine.

Fleets using the new doctrine, which has the Imperium counter-punching, would require higher jump ratings to allow a greater range of strategic intercepts. Fleets using the old doctrine, which had the Imperium meeting the invader at the border, would only require jump ratings high enough to keep up with the invaders' own strategic speed (jump rating).

The Imperium, by deliberately limiting it's fleets to the Zhodani jump rate, would free up tonnage thanks to its technological edge. The tonnage savings created could then be used for things like weapons, armor, m-drives, and agility. Zhodani invasion fleets would then meet Imperial defenders at the border would could match the Zho's strategic speed (jump rating) while also being heavily armored, faster tactically (m-drive rating), far more agile, carrying more energy weapons, and so on.

It is interesting to note that the Imperial switch in doctrine is said to have been partially driven by the narrowing of the TL gap between the Imperium and Consulate.

YMMV.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Just how long crustal defense had been Imperial doctrine is unknown. All we really know is that doctrine had changed. We do know that, whatever other differences they had, both Santanocheev and Norris employed the same doctrine. (That ignores GT:BtC utterly wretched account of the FFW which is completely different from other canonical sources.) While they may have 'drawn daggers' over where and when to fight, both men fought in the same manner.

2 - The Outworld Coalition may have used the knowledge of this crustal doctrine during the third war, a war characterized more by commerce raiding than fleet actions. The fleet of both sides could have been stalking each other along the borders while Outworld raiders slipped past the crustal defenses to strike deep into the Imperial rear. Of course, as I mentioned in note #1, this is only conjecture. The Imperium may not have had such a crustal doctrine in the 970s.

3 - Perhaps as a result of the false or Fourth War? Was that war long enough or did it produce enough engagements for such doctrinal analysis to take place? Or had the 're-think' already begun and the False War merely confirmed certain predictions?

4 - This ties into the idea that the Imperial Navy no longer 'does' force projection, that it's fleet train is not as large as has been previously suggested. During the Fifth Frontier War, strikes against Zhodani systems several parsecs 'over the border' are mentioned, but the Imperial fleet as a whole does not seem to often fight at the end of a lengthy fleet train. This seeming reliance on basis could explain why there are so many naval bases and also ties in nicely with an Imperium that no longer engages in 'foreign' conquests and has not for several centuries.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Hal:
.Why would there be a BatRon with Jump 3 assuming that the ship were made with cutting edge technology at either of TL 14 or TL 15?

Remember that, in the Traveller universe, jump requires a large amount of fuel. Therefore, the higher the jump number, the less ship tonnage remains available for other provisions, such as armament, troops, fighters, supplies, screens and so on. So a balance must be struck between jump capacity and ship utility.

Not all BatRons should be designed to the same kind of astrography. If a BatRon is designed to patrol and defend a Main, Jump-3 or even Jump-2 will be sufficient, leaving alot of tonnage to payload and reducing jump-drive expenses.

 

[Hal]

I like the way you guys are thinking here <g>. Having said that, bringing up the concept of a crustal defense versus mobile defense seems to make the sense here. When I get the chance a little later on, I will take the same original hull I posted above, and modify it for Jump 2 to see what can be accomplished. Thing is, at Jump-4, this ship is already maximized for defense except for its hull configuration versus Meson Screens. It might make sense to turn a Jump-4 BB into a hybrid BB/Carrier or something of that nature.

 

[Hal]

In response to Employee 2-4601, the question being raised now is "What goes into those hulls after the space has been freed up?"

This question becomes even more pertinent when you consider that not all of those Jump 3 BatRons need be constructed as TL 14 Hulls, but instead, may very well be TL 15 Hulls. If TL 15, the amount of space freed from Jump-4 considerations would be even more noticable. I will agree that being able to carry extra troops is nice - and FFW even allocates the ability to carry Battalions equal in value to the fleet's Defense value. The thing is, if the space savings from a Jump-4 configuration is enough to carry more than a Battalion's worth of manpower, what is it carrying in addition to the Battalion?

Hmmmmm.

 

[flykiller]

"crustal defense" isn't possible. it was adopted because peace-time bean-counters cut back on the fleet trains necessary for offensive ops. the imperial navy, its ability to conduct offense reduced, had a lessened use for expensive J4 and so the numbers of such ships declined. the navy, no longer able to strategically pursue the perfidious zhodani, adopted an attitude of "they will come to us."

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Hal:
If a squadron is supposed to be at 100% effectiveness when undamaged, and when damaged, drops to the other stats (or increases in a few instances) what would account for that? I can think of two possibilities. The first is that it is generally presumed that the slower ships will get damaged first, leaving as the likely survivors the faster ships. The second is that there are two separate classes of ship working together, but that it always moves at the slowest common denominator. It would almost seem likely that you need BOTH categories for the reverse side of a counter to be faster jumpwise at damaged state than at "100% undamaged state". Hmmmmm. Any other thoughts?

The majority of the IN BatRons are tender/riders. When riders are lost the jump performance of the tender increases, but the combat factors are lower.

 

[mike wightman]

Another explanation for the J2 BatRon 5-1-3 is that it is actually composed of J2 equipped battle riders - that is, battle riders with jump engines, normally carried into combat by a tender but still having the option of a tactical retreat.

This particular BatRon lacks its tender to make the longer jumps.

 

[flykiller]

Another explanation for the J2 BatRon 5-1-3 is that it is actually composed of J2 equipped battle riders - that is, battle riders with jump engines, normally carried into combat by a tender but still having the option of a tactical retreat.

more likely, depending on engineering details, a tender which carries fewer riders becomes capable in fuel and engineering of J+1, so long as it has the tech.

 

[The Oz]

I have always thought that the switch from the "crustal defense" to the "islands of defense" strategy was more a matter of perception (and Imperial propaganda?) than reality. Notice that Supp. #9 specifically says that the battle rider was the main capital ship at the time of the 4th Frontier War, but it was found incapable of withdrawals under enemy pressure and so the riders were withdrawn into reserve and the battleships were put into the forward positions.

As I interpret it, the battleship squadrons are the ships at the "islands of defense" and they are there to reinforce the planetary defenses and provide a limited striking force for local counterattacks. The battle riders are way back (in Deneb sector) and form the bulk of the Imperial reinforcements to take back lost systems.

In reality, the "islands of defense" and their associated squadrons are a "crustal" defense concentrated on the really important star systems that the invaders can reach.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by The Oz:
I have always thought that the switch from the "crustal defense" to the "islands of defense" strategy was more a matter of perception (and Imperial propaganda?) than reality.

Oz,

That very well could be. What we're told in-game and what is the truth in-game are often at odds in Traveller. The Zhos were mind raping hordes, the Aslan were a Major Race, the examples are numerous. It's one of the thigns that makes Traveller so much fun.

Notice that Supp. #9 specifically says that the battle rider was the main capital ship at the time of the 4th Frontier War, but it was found incapable of withdrawals under enemy pressure and so the riders were withdrawn into reserve and the battleships were put into the forward positions.

This is one of the tactical 'lessons' players in Trillion Credit Squadron learn early on; battleships can run away to fight another day when battleriders cannot. I refereed dozens of TCS campaigns to various stages of completion. I've seen players who rarely won a battle win the war because they still had a fleet when the smoke cleared. Battleships can withdraw when things get hot. Battleriders must win or die.

As I interpret it, the battleship squadrons are the ships at the "islands of defense" and they are there to reinforce the planetary defenses and provide a limited striking force for local counterattacks. The battle riders are way back (in Deneb sector) and form the bulk of the Imperial reinforcements to take back lost systems.

It could very well work that way.

We know that battlerider squadrons have been in the Imperial inventory since at least around the Imperial Civil War. We also know the Imperium has been concerned (or says it is concerned) about the narrowing tech gap between itself and the Consulate. It has been suggested that the Imperium was happy to simply match the strategic speed (jump rating) of Zhodani warships in return for using the tonnage 'savings' to make their own warships more powerful in combat.

Now, as Zho tech improved, the Imperium would see less and less return from the jump-tonnage-for-combat-tonnage trade off it had been enjoying for centuries. One way to restore that edge would be to trade away all jump tonnage in return for combat tonnage; i.e. battleriders.

As I wrote earlier in this post, battleriders are poor in defense. They can't easily run away to fight another day. Battleriders do have a nice strategic range or 'speed' thanks to their carrier. That makes them excellent counter-punchers on a strategic level.

We could be simply looking at a change in emphasis here. Just throwing out numbers here, I am not suggesting these numbers are in anyway even close to correct. Under previous doctrine, the Imperium could have a 60:40 battleship to battlerider ratio. Now, the ratio could be 50:50 or 40:60. No revolutionary changes, just a change in emphasis.


Have fun,
Bill