skills 'n' that in mgt: connects, packages, etc

[DangerousThing]

I think something has been lost as Traveller has developed through its various incarnations.

Originally, the 'skills' were actually 'expertises'. Before the skills bloat of LBB4&5, each character had a few areas of expertise, perhaps four or five. These defined who you are.

I agree with this. I don't mind having characters with a few main skills and some extra skills, but there is a lot of bloat in modern Traveller versions.

It's one reason I like to create the characters for my players from their descriptions with some negotiation. For example, in T5 one of my players wanted to play an Intelligence Analyst. I had to create the "Analyst" skill, but most of his other skills are purely in support of this skill. He is an analyst, not a fighter.

Now, as to martial arts, I'm a big fan of those silly martial arts movies even though they aren't realistic.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Once upon a time, players role-played solutions to problems they weren't qualified to handle. These days they pick a skill from their encyclopaedic list and roll-play it.

To me PLAYERS coming up with solutions based on their personal intellect, experiences, and abilities even though a character isn't qualified isn't role playing. Playing based on a CHARACTERS skills is role playing, even when a roll is involved.

It should not be required for the PLAYER to somehow know what to do and solve the problem instead of letting the skill and dice roll decide. Lets say the GM has personal medical knowledge and a character has a high level of medical skill but the player doesn't. GM "Sorry, your patient has expired. You should have realized from the symptoms I gave you that you needed to do such and such."

 

[McPerth]

To see the value of a skill level, I think the best way is to see what does it allow you to do. As in CT the tasks were not defined, I'll use MT to compare with MGT. For my comparisons I'll assume relevant stats at 7, that gave a +1 DM in MT and 0 in MGT:

If you're not trained on a task (and not unskilled OK), in MT you would have a +1 with one difficulty level as a penalty, so, for an easy task, you'll need a 6+, for a medium, a 10+, and not able to try more difficult tasks (unless cautious). In MGT, your modifier would be -3, so you could try a symple task at +3 (5+), an easy task at +1 (7+), an average at -3 (10+) and you could even try a difficult one at -5 (12+).

With minimal training (level 0), rolls for easy, medium and difficult are 2+, 6+ and 10+ in MT, while 2-4+ (depending if referee rules it simple or easy), 8+ and 10+ in MGT, but in MGT you could also try a Very Difficult at 12+.

To be able to try formidable tasks in MT (equivalent to Very Difficult in MGT, I guess, as they are one level above difficult) you'd need level 2 in MT (target 12+), while with level 2, you'll achieve success in MGT on a 10+.

And finally, to be able to try an Impossible task in MT, equivalent to Formidable in MGT (as stated above, and also the most difficult task given in the game), you'd need skill level 6, while in MGT you can achieve it with skill 2.

Off course, that may be downgraded using cautious task in MT and spending more time in MGT, but while in MT the results are quite important, in MGT you only achieve a +1 to spend more time (by a factor of 6-10).

So, as I understand skills, MGT gives you less skill levels to your character, but those skills mean more training that in MT, as the same skill allows you to achieve harder results. It also gives you many 0 level skills, but forfeits the Unskilled OK (unless house ruled, I guess most referees will allow several such tasks, regardless of the rules).

No, so do I, and not formally, but neither does it forbid/limit retries.

I guess the term retry is used in two ways in traveller:

- The first way is to simply repeat a task you failed. Of course this is not available in instant (e.g. spotting something you can only see for an instant) or what would be labeled in MT as fateful tasks (e.g. to disarm a bomb just before it detonates). This is allowed until successful in MGT (so failure does only mean you'll need more time, unless some kind of misshap occurs), while it required a determination task in MT (so meaning your character became frustrated, and had to overcome frustration to keep trying).

- The second way is what is represented in MT by JOT skill, and is not featured in MGT. This represents the increased resourcefulness, and may be used most times when the referee thinks this resourcefulness will help (I remember one gaming season when the group Doctor saved one NPC by using this retries, and I assumed he left medicine aside and used true first aid techinques to stabilize him, acting more as socorrist than doctor). The fact of being fateful doen't in this case preclude those retries, IMO (the example given just above is about such use in a fateful task).

 

[McPerth]

To me PLAYERS coming up with solutions based on their personal intellect, experiences, and abilities even though a character isn't qualified isn't role playing. Playing based on a CHARACTERS skills is role playing, even when a roll is involved.

It should not be required for the PLAYER to somehow know what to do and solve the problem instead of letting the skill and dice roll decide. Lets say the GM has personal medical knowledge and a character has a high level of medical skill but the player doesn't. GM "Sorry, your patient has expired. You should have realized from the symptoms I gave you that you needed to do such and such."

I fully agree with you here. The fact that your character has Int 2 makes him nearly an idiot, regardless of the true intelligence of the player (who may as well be a true genius), and should be played as such for good role playing (and vice versa).

Same happens with skills. The fact that I have no idea about engineering, does not mean my character with Engineering 4 (in MGT terms) may not be one of the best in his zone, and the fact I am an experienced nurse does not mean my character would know how to avoid becoming ill, or how to treat a wound, even if it seems obvious to me.

 

[aramis]

It's important to note about 2300AD and MT: Tasks could not be freely retried.

You had to either make a determination task to try again, or have JOAT skill, in order to retry, even if no negative consequence had accrued. And JOAT was its level in retries without making determination tasks.

No equivalent mechanic exists in CT, MGT, nor TNE. I can't recall a similar one in T4, T5, nor T20, either.

 

[McPerth]

As I said, I see retries allowed by JOT skill in MT aside from normal retries.

The former are allowed in fateful tasks, as they represent (IMHO) more resourcefulness in the same task, while are not, as an example, in combat skills, where no resourcefulness will make for lack of accuracy.

The latter are not allowed in fateful tasks, as they represent to begin anew, but are allowed in combat skills (I guess no referee forces any determination roll to keep firing the bad guy you just missed, even if rules don't specifically make them an exception :devil

 

[77topaz]

(I guess no referee forces any determination roll to keep firing the bad guy you just missed, even if rules don't specifically make them an exception :devil

Same with trying to fix some component of the ship, without which the ship will explode in five minutes; or trying to revive someone who had a heart-attack (particularly if the PC knows them).

 

[McPerth]

Same with trying to fix some component of the ship, without which the ship will explode in five minutes; or trying to revive someone who had a heart-attack (particularly if the PC knows them).

I see both tasks as fateful, so I wouldn't allow retries unless those allowed by JOT in MT, as if you fail your first task th ship explodes or the poor patient dies, so I don't see normal retrying allowable here.

BTW, assuming the character trying them have engineer (in the former case) or medical (in the latter) skills, those are examples of what I mean when I say the retries rule for JOT makes it more powerful in one sense, as they could use it, no matter how high their related skills are.

 

[Icosahedron]

To me PLAYERS coming up with solutions based on their personal intellect, experiences, and abilities even though a character isn't qualified isn't role playing. Playing based on a CHARACTERS skills is role playing, even when a roll is involved.

I never said otherwise. What I'm saying is, in CT you have, say, four listed areas of expertise. These are things you excel at, things you could earn a living at. You don't need to have Origami-2 on your character sheet in order to fold a piece of paper.

These days if someone wants to get through a locked door, they see which member of the group has the highest value of Lock Picking (cascade Mechanical Locks) (cascade Chubb) (cascade Types 15-23), and keep rolling dice until they succeed.
Once upon a time, the four-skill PC would ask the Ref what the door looks like, then take a screwdriver from her pocket and unscrew the hinges...
That's what I mean by role-playing rather than roll-playing.


@Dangerous Thing.
I also enjoy the martial arts romps, to a point, in the right context. If I'm playing House of the Flying Daggers, that's fine, but I don't want PCs prancing around the treetops and running across ceilings without a grav belt in my Traveller game, thank you very much.
I'll bend reality as far as Bruce Lee and Steven Seagal, but there are limits.

 

[aramis]

Same with trying to fix some component of the ship, without which the ship will explode in five minutes; or trying to revive someone who had a heart-attack (particularly if the PC knows them).

I've actually been know to enforce them especially in those circumstances...

But I also allow carousing, leadership, or psychology by others to "reset" the "determination clock"...

 

[McPerth]

But I also allow carousing, leadership, or psychology by others to "reset" the "determination clock"...

Very good idea. Could Persuasion be added to this list?

 

[aramis]

Very good idea. Could Persuasion be added to this list?

Sure.

 

[77topaz]

How about, simply, the Endurance of the person performing the task?

 

[McPerth]

How about, simply, the Endurance of the person performing the task?

In MT, determination is ruled by endurance and intelligence, so it is already featured on it.

 

[far-trader]

Yep, Endurance for physical applications and Intelligence for mental applications. I'd say. For example:

Keep swinging the boarding axe to break through the door - Determination/Endurance (possibly a poor example, combat, in CT at least, had a built in fatigue rule, Determination might be a way to go beyond simple fatigue, don't recall MT's fatigue rule offhand)

Keep puzzling away at the riddle of Ancient mystery - Determination/Intelligence

Both in my opinion should come with cumulative negatives (your End flags and you play out, your Int is strained and you run out of ideas). They should also max out tries in some method (max attempts = characteristic perhaps). And both will reset after a time (overnight or less with a restful break from the exertion).

 

[McPerth]

Yep, Endurance for physical applications and Intelligence for mental applications. I'd say. For example:

Keep swinging the boarding axe to break through the door - Determination/Endurance (possibly a poor example, combat, in CT at least, had a built in fatigue rule, Determination might be a way to go beyond simple fatigue, don't recall MT's fatigue rule offhand)

Keep puzzling away at the riddle of Ancient mystery - Determination/Intelligence

Both in my opinion should come with cumulative negatives (your End flags and you play out, your Int is strained and you run out of ideas). They should also max out tries in some method (max attempts = characteristic perhaps). And both will reset after a time (overnight or less with a restful break from the exertion).

In MT, your determination modifier was (End+Int)/5 (rouded down, as all stat modifiers). When you failed a task, you need to pass a Difficult task (11+), with detremination as only modifier. If you failed it, task dificulty increased one level (which was equivalent to a -4 modifier). So, it was likely you will get frustrated quite soon, making your task absolutly impossible. So, Int and End are featured on the determinatoin task already (and both are used for all situations).

As an example, your character is trying to find a Psionic Institute in a world where he knows there is one. Referee determines its a Difficult task (11+), modified by streetwise and int. He hails the task and rolls determination. If he fails the task, finiding the Psionic Institute will become Formidable (15+), whith same modifiers. Unless the modifiers amounted 3+, he has no chance, and if it fails, it will become Impossible (19+), unless determination is achieved, in which case it will stay as Formidable.

As you see, your player wil have only a few effective reties before being useless to keep trying.

 

[Ishmael]

yep

Determination = End + Int and is used as a 'stat' for keeping your focus.
If you fail a task, you may retry it without penalty, except for the time lost unless it was an exceptional failure whereupon you must roll the task to stay focused and determined. If the determination task fails, the retry is one level more difficult. If the determination task succeeds, you may retry the original task as normal.

This is different from JOT, which gives one free retry per skill level on any task that fails. This is an abstraction to simulate resourcefulness and adaptability.

Also, the determination task is used for cautious tasks. For a cautious task, you must first roll to stay determined. If this succeeds, the original task is one level easier, otherwise the original task's difficulty stays the same. In either case, the time 3D roll is doubled before subtracting DM's making the task take much longer.

I'd imagine it'd make a nice 'stat' to base morale off of.
The psionic level in awareness allows for enhanced End, which can be used to temporarily boost the determination level up.
As a house rule, I allow for the 'psionic' skill in awareness to require only extensive training and not be reliant on psionics at all; its a matter of extreme mental control.


It's a really nice thing to have lots of, if you're a sniper.

 

[McPerth]

And determination has also some more uses (e.g. is the task used to end a formal course to learn a skill, if you find an instructor).

 

[Icosahedron]

All this sounds a bit like dice-rolling overkill to me. I assume it's a legacy of the general overkill that was MT.

Roll dice to see if you have the determination to keep chopping at a door or give up partway through? o:

What's next, give up partway through your Astrogation calculation? Get bored with steering the ship and go play cards in the galley?

Does the player have any influence over his character's actions at all?

Gimme old-fashioned CT any day.

 

[McPerth]

I understand (and to some point share) your view, I don't like the free taks untill you either achieve your task or a misshap. Unless there's some way to stop you character retrying, your characters may spend far longer time than most people will endure trying something, just because it's quite more difficult for the players (who spend just some minutes rolling dice) than the characters (for whom every such reroll may mean a week of unfruitful search) to get tired and frustrated and give up. I've seen in too many games players that don't give up in situation where few people will have the patience (or determination) to keep trying, just because it is free.