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Skill Advancement Rules

A patch to MT for those who want skills to go away, but don't like the experience limit:
any skill which has not: been raised nor has gained any AT's in 4 years loses a level.
 
A patch to MT for those who want skills to go away, but don't like the experience limit:
any skill which has not: been raised nor has gained any AT's in 4 years loses a level.
 
Originally posted by Tucker:
I chafe at the constraints of the max levels total provided by the MT chargen/skill advancement rules. Has anyone ever toyed with changing the max levels allowed?
If by 'toy with' you mean sent on a spacewalk without a suit, then yes.

After having sat around statting out myself and my peers, and discovering there was no reasonable way to come even close to our aggregate skill compilations (and no, I'm not being egotistical, just realistic given capabilities), I realized Traveller will tend to limit you a bit (CT a lot).

Now, maybe a limit on max skill levels per-skill as concentration to really high levels is rare. Something like Int/3 or something. Or Int/5, letting one or two skills perhaps breach this.
 
Originally posted by Tucker:
I chafe at the constraints of the max levels total provided by the MT chargen/skill advancement rules. Has anyone ever toyed with changing the max levels allowed?
If by 'toy with' you mean sent on a spacewalk without a suit, then yes.

After having sat around statting out myself and my peers, and discovering there was no reasonable way to come even close to our aggregate skill compilations (and no, I'm not being egotistical, just realistic given capabilities), I realized Traveller will tend to limit you a bit (CT a lot).

Now, maybe a limit on max skill levels per-skill as concentration to really high levels is rare. Something like Int/3 or something. Or Int/5, letting one or two skills perhaps breach this.
 
Originally posted by Tucker:
I chafe at the constraints of the max levels total provided by the MT chargen/skill advancement rules. Has anyone ever toyed with changing the max levels allowed?
If by 'toy with' you mean sent on a spacewalk without a suit, then yes.

After having sat around statting out myself and my peers, and discovering there was no reasonable way to come even close to our aggregate skill compilations (and no, I'm not being egotistical, just realistic given capabilities), I realized Traveller will tend to limit you a bit (CT a lot).

Now, maybe a limit on max skill levels per-skill as concentration to really high levels is rare. Something like Int/3 or something. Or Int/5, letting one or two skills perhaps breach this.
 
Originally posted by Tucker:
I like to think that there ain't enough skills listed that degradation will be a problem. It's not like we're playing GURPS or something.
Guess it depends on your granularity and specialization of skills and your skill tree.
I use extra skills from Merchants & Merchandise, SORAG, Scouts and Assassins, as well as a variant martial arts system and the various survival and related skills from The Desert Environment, The Undersea Environment, and (the one I forget) Environment.

I haven't run into the munchkiny types much Ref'n Traveller, although they are easy to spot in chargen when their eyes hit the BPs and rules for anagathics. They also balk at the corrective errata for the MO benefit tables and number of rolls.
Given the costs of most high tech goodies like vacc suits, etc, I rarely have to worry about 3 rolls on the money tables. And our group burns most BPs getting special duty or sculpting their skill loadouts.

Has anybody monkeyed with the career paths? I'll let a PC jump around in different careers, with the caveat about how it'll screw with MO benes.
Why even that?
I've changed jobs enough times (sometimes radically) but I'm not sure it has impacted earning potential. In fact, the varied experience may increase it. However, I do apply some minus DMs for trying to enlist in military or high fitness (police, etc) forces as you get older - not many 50 year old privates taken into the Army.

One of the reasons I liked the chargen for CT/MT so much is that it creates a literal outline of a PCs backstory right off, and the house-rule just made for more interesting stories.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. This is why we all like prior history.
 
Originally posted by Tucker:
I like to think that there ain't enough skills listed that degradation will be a problem. It's not like we're playing GURPS or something.
Guess it depends on your granularity and specialization of skills and your skill tree.
I use extra skills from Merchants & Merchandise, SORAG, Scouts and Assassins, as well as a variant martial arts system and the various survival and related skills from The Desert Environment, The Undersea Environment, and (the one I forget) Environment.

I haven't run into the munchkiny types much Ref'n Traveller, although they are easy to spot in chargen when their eyes hit the BPs and rules for anagathics. They also balk at the corrective errata for the MO benefit tables and number of rolls.
Given the costs of most high tech goodies like vacc suits, etc, I rarely have to worry about 3 rolls on the money tables. And our group burns most BPs getting special duty or sculpting their skill loadouts.

Has anybody monkeyed with the career paths? I'll let a PC jump around in different careers, with the caveat about how it'll screw with MO benes.
Why even that?
I've changed jobs enough times (sometimes radically) but I'm not sure it has impacted earning potential. In fact, the varied experience may increase it. However, I do apply some minus DMs for trying to enlist in military or high fitness (police, etc) forces as you get older - not many 50 year old privates taken into the Army.

One of the reasons I liked the chargen for CT/MT so much is that it creates a literal outline of a PCs backstory right off, and the house-rule just made for more interesting stories.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. This is why we all like prior history.
 
Originally posted by Tucker:
I like to think that there ain't enough skills listed that degradation will be a problem. It's not like we're playing GURPS or something.
Guess it depends on your granularity and specialization of skills and your skill tree.
I use extra skills from Merchants & Merchandise, SORAG, Scouts and Assassins, as well as a variant martial arts system and the various survival and related skills from The Desert Environment, The Undersea Environment, and (the one I forget) Environment.

I haven't run into the munchkiny types much Ref'n Traveller, although they are easy to spot in chargen when their eyes hit the BPs and rules for anagathics. They also balk at the corrective errata for the MO benefit tables and number of rolls.
Given the costs of most high tech goodies like vacc suits, etc, I rarely have to worry about 3 rolls on the money tables. And our group burns most BPs getting special duty or sculpting their skill loadouts.

Has anybody monkeyed with the career paths? I'll let a PC jump around in different careers, with the caveat about how it'll screw with MO benes.
Why even that?
I've changed jobs enough times (sometimes radically) but I'm not sure it has impacted earning potential. In fact, the varied experience may increase it. However, I do apply some minus DMs for trying to enlist in military or high fitness (police, etc) forces as you get older - not many 50 year old privates taken into the Army.

One of the reasons I liked the chargen for CT/MT so much is that it creates a literal outline of a PCs backstory right off, and the house-rule just made for more interesting stories.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. This is why we all like prior history.
 
Aramis, not bad.
Only, from personal experience (not alway happy), it doesn't take long for a skill to drop off a level. Now, degradations is probably inverse logarithmic - an Olympic biathlete will probably always shoot well, but a few months off their practice will take them notably down from the peak.

Try this one:
Allow easier AT gains (if the characters us a skill a lot, give them an AT). Increase the AT count to gain a skill to compensate. Any skill which does not obtain an AT in a given month gains an IT (Inaction Tally). When you have enough inaction tallies to gain a 'negative' skill level, then you lose a level in the skill. ATs can buy off ITs and vice versa.

Thus, if I don't use my Medical skill for 4 years, I'll probably have dropped a couple of levels.

I'd never let a skilled player drop below 1/2 his skill level, round down. Minimum skill is zero level.
 
Aramis, not bad.
Only, from personal experience (not alway happy), it doesn't take long for a skill to drop off a level. Now, degradations is probably inverse logarithmic - an Olympic biathlete will probably always shoot well, but a few months off their practice will take them notably down from the peak.

Try this one:
Allow easier AT gains (if the characters us a skill a lot, give them an AT). Increase the AT count to gain a skill to compensate. Any skill which does not obtain an AT in a given month gains an IT (Inaction Tally). When you have enough inaction tallies to gain a 'negative' skill level, then you lose a level in the skill. ATs can buy off ITs and vice versa.

Thus, if I don't use my Medical skill for 4 years, I'll probably have dropped a couple of levels.

I'd never let a skilled player drop below 1/2 his skill level, round down. Minimum skill is zero level.
 
Aramis, not bad.
Only, from personal experience (not alway happy), it doesn't take long for a skill to drop off a level. Now, degradations is probably inverse logarithmic - an Olympic biathlete will probably always shoot well, but a few months off their practice will take them notably down from the peak.

Try this one:
Allow easier AT gains (if the characters us a skill a lot, give them an AT). Increase the AT count to gain a skill to compensate. Any skill which does not obtain an AT in a given month gains an IT (Inaction Tally). When you have enough inaction tallies to gain a 'negative' skill level, then you lose a level in the skill. ATs can buy off ITs and vice versa.

Thus, if I don't use my Medical skill for 4 years, I'll probably have dropped a couple of levels.

I'd never let a skilled player drop below 1/2 his skill level, round down. Minimum skill is zero level.
 
I USE the experience rule in CT/MT... it natually puts the focus where it should be... on those skills you pln to keep using. Int+Edu: Not Just for CG...

And, in the case of the pro athelete, I'd in fact argue the othr direction: Not that that lose that "Skill edge" but that they never actually HAD that edge as a skill level, but a specific effect of a dedicated training regimen outside the skill system's scope.

Say that the daily constant workouts, in addition to providing the AT's, also provide a +1 or +2 DM to the tasks, as a specific training bonus.

(In fact, the one Biathelete I've known can't shoot straight when NOT in action mode... he trains so much, and apparently shooting is state dependant learning, which is why the army wants troops to learn to shoot while hot, dirty, and tired, so when he's not got the adrenaline from running, he's not able to focus as well... he never learned how. Likewise, how many snipers really make good biathetes..

I am constantly amazed by the skills I can still use after years of neglect.... and keep finding them.

The ones that are not coming back are muscle memory skills... and those are impacted by a neuromotor disease...
 
I USE the experience rule in CT/MT... it natually puts the focus where it should be... on those skills you pln to keep using. Int+Edu: Not Just for CG...

And, in the case of the pro athelete, I'd in fact argue the othr direction: Not that that lose that "Skill edge" but that they never actually HAD that edge as a skill level, but a specific effect of a dedicated training regimen outside the skill system's scope.

Say that the daily constant workouts, in addition to providing the AT's, also provide a +1 or +2 DM to the tasks, as a specific training bonus.

(In fact, the one Biathelete I've known can't shoot straight when NOT in action mode... he trains so much, and apparently shooting is state dependant learning, which is why the army wants troops to learn to shoot while hot, dirty, and tired, so when he's not got the adrenaline from running, he's not able to focus as well... he never learned how. Likewise, how many snipers really make good biathetes..

I am constantly amazed by the skills I can still use after years of neglect.... and keep finding them.

The ones that are not coming back are muscle memory skills... and those are impacted by a neuromotor disease...
 
I USE the experience rule in CT/MT... it natually puts the focus where it should be... on those skills you pln to keep using. Int+Edu: Not Just for CG...

And, in the case of the pro athelete, I'd in fact argue the othr direction: Not that that lose that "Skill edge" but that they never actually HAD that edge as a skill level, but a specific effect of a dedicated training regimen outside the skill system's scope.

Say that the daily constant workouts, in addition to providing the AT's, also provide a +1 or +2 DM to the tasks, as a specific training bonus.

(In fact, the one Biathelete I've known can't shoot straight when NOT in action mode... he trains so much, and apparently shooting is state dependant learning, which is why the army wants troops to learn to shoot while hot, dirty, and tired, so when he's not got the adrenaline from running, he's not able to focus as well... he never learned how. Likewise, how many snipers really make good biathetes..

I am constantly amazed by the skills I can still use after years of neglect.... and keep finding them.

The ones that are not coming back are muscle memory skills... and those are impacted by a neuromotor disease...
 
Aramis,

Whether you argue that Johnny shoots like a Biathlete as a result of having Rifle-5 or having Rifle-3 with a +2 bonus from training, it sort of then begs the question of how do you differentiate as well as (from a practical standpoint) not making a lot of difference at the downrange end. It is *effectively* another skill level or two...

If you want to give people 'the edge' in skills by some other mechanism than skill levels, I won't say it isn't a valid approach, but it does introduce some sort of new set of things to track.

Let me take a case in point:

At one time, I was an excellent assembler programmer and wrote robot control and sensor monitoring software. Now, I couldn't probably get an assembler program to run, let alone work right and be optimized. I just haven't used the skillset in eight years. So I went from (in this particular) Comp-2+ to Comp-0 or less as it pertains to this task in about eight years.

Similarly, there was a time where I could have beaten the crap out of the average person, probably brawling-2+ (maybe 3). But since I am physically out of practice, if I tried now, I'd probably hurt myself trying a kotagaeshi or a zenponage.

So, how does the game capture these losses?

I also could speak Russian reasonably (Russian-1) and French better (French-2) and probably now I can barely manage in french and am hopeless in Russian.

These are *not* muscle memory skills, and yet they have declined from neglect. Currently, MT doesn't capture that - character growth is sort of an upward spiral.

OTOH, I'd estimate from the MT skill list, I have about 31 skill levels in various things. Friends I know, I rate at 38, 50, 32, 31 and 21 respectively. This is based off of demonstrated competencies. So this is one of the reasons I chucked Int + Edu as a limit.
 
Aramis,

Whether you argue that Johnny shoots like a Biathlete as a result of having Rifle-5 or having Rifle-3 with a +2 bonus from training, it sort of then begs the question of how do you differentiate as well as (from a practical standpoint) not making a lot of difference at the downrange end. It is *effectively* another skill level or two...

If you want to give people 'the edge' in skills by some other mechanism than skill levels, I won't say it isn't a valid approach, but it does introduce some sort of new set of things to track.

Let me take a case in point:

At one time, I was an excellent assembler programmer and wrote robot control and sensor monitoring software. Now, I couldn't probably get an assembler program to run, let alone work right and be optimized. I just haven't used the skillset in eight years. So I went from (in this particular) Comp-2+ to Comp-0 or less as it pertains to this task in about eight years.

Similarly, there was a time where I could have beaten the crap out of the average person, probably brawling-2+ (maybe 3). But since I am physically out of practice, if I tried now, I'd probably hurt myself trying a kotagaeshi or a zenponage.

So, how does the game capture these losses?

I also could speak Russian reasonably (Russian-1) and French better (French-2) and probably now I can barely manage in french and am hopeless in Russian.

These are *not* muscle memory skills, and yet they have declined from neglect. Currently, MT doesn't capture that - character growth is sort of an upward spiral.

OTOH, I'd estimate from the MT skill list, I have about 31 skill levels in various things. Friends I know, I rate at 38, 50, 32, 31 and 21 respectively. This is based off of demonstrated competencies. So this is one of the reasons I chucked Int + Edu as a limit.
 
Aramis,

Whether you argue that Johnny shoots like a Biathlete as a result of having Rifle-5 or having Rifle-3 with a +2 bonus from training, it sort of then begs the question of how do you differentiate as well as (from a practical standpoint) not making a lot of difference at the downrange end. It is *effectively* another skill level or two...

If you want to give people 'the edge' in skills by some other mechanism than skill levels, I won't say it isn't a valid approach, but it does introduce some sort of new set of things to track.

Let me take a case in point:

At one time, I was an excellent assembler programmer and wrote robot control and sensor monitoring software. Now, I couldn't probably get an assembler program to run, let alone work right and be optimized. I just haven't used the skillset in eight years. So I went from (in this particular) Comp-2+ to Comp-0 or less as it pertains to this task in about eight years.

Similarly, there was a time where I could have beaten the crap out of the average person, probably brawling-2+ (maybe 3). But since I am physically out of practice, if I tried now, I'd probably hurt myself trying a kotagaeshi or a zenponage.

So, how does the game capture these losses?

I also could speak Russian reasonably (Russian-1) and French better (French-2) and probably now I can barely manage in french and am hopeless in Russian.

These are *not* muscle memory skills, and yet they have declined from neglect. Currently, MT doesn't capture that - character growth is sort of an upward spiral.

OTOH, I'd estimate from the MT skill list, I have about 31 skill levels in various things. Friends I know, I rate at 38, 50, 32, 31 and 21 respectively. This is based off of demonstrated competencies. So this is one of the reasons I chucked Int + Edu as a limit.
 
*I* don't accoutn for it. I think you are probably well overrating you and your friends skill totals.

Remember, a 1 is employable, 3 is doctoral program exit level, and 6 is about the maximum useful skill, since the normal +2 from att eclipses it.

(I'd put myself about comp 2, play violin 1, sing 2, play recorder 2, Wheeled vehicle 1, each science at 0 save psychology and astronomy, both at 1, rifle 1, pistol 1, SMG 0, Shotgun 0, LBlade 2, ShBlade 1, brawling 1, instructor 1, heraldry 2. I'm able to program in C/C++, but not well, not becuase I'm no longer computer 2, but becuase I took my levels in applesoft and VMS basics. Why the large blade 2? becuase I'm significantly good with rapier, not great, but definitely a credit to my teachers.
 
*I* don't accoutn for it. I think you are probably well overrating you and your friends skill totals.

Remember, a 1 is employable, 3 is doctoral program exit level, and 6 is about the maximum useful skill, since the normal +2 from att eclipses it.

(I'd put myself about comp 2, play violin 1, sing 2, play recorder 2, Wheeled vehicle 1, each science at 0 save psychology and astronomy, both at 1, rifle 1, pistol 1, SMG 0, Shotgun 0, LBlade 2, ShBlade 1, brawling 1, instructor 1, heraldry 2. I'm able to program in C/C++, but not well, not becuase I'm no longer computer 2, but becuase I took my levels in applesoft and VMS basics. Why the large blade 2? becuase I'm significantly good with rapier, not great, but definitely a credit to my teachers.
 
*I* don't accoutn for it. I think you are probably well overrating you and your friends skill totals.

Remember, a 1 is employable, 3 is doctoral program exit level, and 6 is about the maximum useful skill, since the normal +2 from att eclipses it.

(I'd put myself about comp 2, play violin 1, sing 2, play recorder 2, Wheeled vehicle 1, each science at 0 save psychology and astronomy, both at 1, rifle 1, pistol 1, SMG 0, Shotgun 0, LBlade 2, ShBlade 1, brawling 1, instructor 1, heraldry 2. I'm able to program in C/C++, but not well, not becuase I'm no longer computer 2, but becuase I took my levels in applesoft and VMS basics. Why the large blade 2? becuase I'm significantly good with rapier, not great, but definitely a credit to my teachers.
 
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