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Simplified MT design?

T. Foster

SOC-13
After spending the better part of 15 years bemoaning the lack of a 'simple alternative' craft design system in MT, I've finally decided to stop whining and do something about it.

My idea is to re-High Guardify the MT craft design system, allowing small craft and ships up to, say, 5K tons to be designed with minimum hassle.

Here's the preliminary plan:

1) Eliminate mass: just remove that whole column from the computation. AFAICT for space vessels it's only used once (in figuring Agility), which IMO doesn't justify having to keep track of it.

2) Ignore Small Numbers: Volumes smaller than 1.35 kl (i.e. 0.1 dton) will be ignored, as will power consumptions smaller than 25 MW (i.e. 0.1 EP). The only possible exceptions are for areas like life support or control panels where hundreds of individually small units will be combined.

3) Pre-figure packages: Hulls will be pre-figured at Armor Factor 40, and in additional steps of 3; power plants will be pre-figured in blocks of 250 MW*; life support packages will be pre-figured.

4) Remove the Extremes: Eliminate table entries that only apply to vehicles and ground craft or very large ships, and eliminate extreme Tech Levels (<9, >15).

5) Return to Formulas: Where possible, HG-style formulas will be used instead of the equivalent tables in MT. I like working with formulas better, it makes the results seem a little less arbitrary.

With these changes, I think I should be able to devise a simplified design system that is not significantly more complicated than HG and retains rough compatability with the Full MT system. The main problems I can foresee are with Armor and Agility (both due to dropping the mass calculation). I'm planning to use HG concepts for both (Armor takes up volume space, Agility figured from volume) but if that seems to do too much damage to compatability I might grudgingly include mass after all (but only in significantly large (1 ton?) increments).

Has anybody else bothered to do something like this? Did it work? I'm pretty sure a big portion of my problem with MT craft design is its appearance (all those tables, all those tiny decimal numbers) and that if it just LOOKed more like HG I'd be a lot more comfortable with it -- after all, most of the concepts are essentially identical.

*Interestingly, I calculated that each 250 MW of PP capacity @ TL 15 takes up approx. 1 dton, requires approx. 1.5 dtons of fuel/week, and costs 2.8 MCr. The size and cost are very close to HG (1 EP =1 ton = 3 MCr), but the required fuel is half-again as much (1.5 dt/wk vs 1 t/wk in HG). Does anyone know why this change was made? Or did I perhaps miscalculate something?
 
Pardon the self-reply:

In HG, hull costs follow a simple formula (0.1 MCr per dton, IIRC). But in MT we get a detailed table of weights and costs by displacement that follows no apparent pattern whatsoever.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why such a change was made? And how much damage would it do if I were to just simplify this table back down to a simple formula? Am I overlooking some vitally important engineering considerations here?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
Pardon the self-reply:

In HG, hull costs follow a simple formula (0.1 MCr per dton, IIRC). But in MT we get a detailed table of weights and costs by displacement that follows no apparent pattern whatsoever.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why such a change was made? And how much damage would it do if I were to just simplify this table back down to a simple formula? Am I overlooking some vitally important engineering considerations here?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well the hull cost in MT also includes the Armor cost which is a seperate item in CT.

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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.

David Shayne
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
Pardon the self-reply:

In HG, hull costs follow a simple formula (0.1 MCr per dton, IIRC). But in MT we get a detailed table of weights and costs by displacement that follows no apparent pattern whatsoever.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why such a change was made? And how much damage would it do if I were to just simplify this table back down to a simple formula? Am I overlooking some vitally important engineering considerations here?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it does follow a (very rough) x^(2/3) progression. Fundamentally, the MT design system is Striker, not HG. It just happens to have lots of striker details. The One Small Step rules (Challenge and MT-HT) DO make weight important for pregravitic spacecraft, or for those adding other forms of locomotion to a spacecraft besides the "Impeller" effect of Traveller drives. (The accellerate the whole ship, are based upon volume, and are gravitically based... Combine with starfire and you get: HH)


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-aramis
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Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
Actually, it does follow a (very rough) x^(2/3) progression. Fundamentally, the MT design system is Striker, not HG. It just happens to have lots of striker details. The One Small Step rules (Challenge and MT-HT) DO make weight important for pregravitic spacecraft, or for those adding other forms of locomotion to a spacecraft besides the "Impeller" effect of Traveller drives. (The accellerate the whole ship, are based upon volume, and are gravitically based... Combine with starfire and you get: HH)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha, thanks for that formula. Looking at that chart again (since posting the above question) I was pretty sure there was a formula at work, but my math skills are too atrophied (and weren't that hot to start with) to be able to deduce it. (I confess I hadn't actually bothered to check Striker for it).

As for pre-gravitic or alternate-drive craft, personally I'm not worried about them. Simplicity is my primary goal and to reach it I'm explicitly not addressing a lot of the 'borderline' areas. This isn't supposed to be a system for gearheads and envelope pushers, but rather for folks who want to design a ship in a half hour or so and yet still be confident that the results will be at least roughly compatible with the 'reality' of the game world.

What I AM worried about is inter-system compatability, i.e. those ships which have Agility 5 in HG (volume-based), but under MT (mass based) would have Agility 1. Is there any way to 'fix' that without the hassle of tracking mass or am I just going to have to make the difficult choice?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
Aha, thanks for that formula. Looking at that chart again (since posting the above question) I was pretty sure there was a formula at work, but my math skills are too atrophied (and weren't that hot to start with) to be able to deduce it. (I confess I hadn't actually bothered to check Striker for it).

As for pre-gravitic or alternate-drive craft, personally I'm not worried about them. Simplicity is my primary goal and to reach it I'm explicitly not addressing a lot of the 'borderline' areas. This isn't supposed to be a system for gearheads and envelope pushers, but rather for folks who want to design a ship in a half hour or so and yet still be confident that the results will be at least roughly compatible with the 'reality' of the game world.

What I AM worried about is inter-system compatability, i.e. those ships which have Agility 5 in HG (volume-based), but under MT (mass based) would have Agility 1. Is there any way to 'fix' that without the hassle of tracking mass or am I just going to have to make the difficult choice?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the hull formula is not explicit in Striker nor MT; I noticed the curve fit. (In fact, it is a simple calculation of hull shell volume from striker, modified by HG). The armor tables differ in one entry on the lower right of the MT table.

As for the agility issue: MT plants are NOT the same as HG plants. 1st, there is more granularity in MT, second, MT agility is not the same thing as HG agility.

HG agility is main drive thrust available in combat. MT agility is non-axial thrust available for evasion, etc., and is addition to axial maind drive thrust at rating.

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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
As for the agility issue: MT plants are NOT the same as HG plants. 1st, there is more granularity in MT, second, MT agility is not the same thing as HG agility.

HG agility is main drive thrust available in combat. MT agility is non-axial thrust available for evasion, etc., and is addition to axial maind drive thrust at rating.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that there's more granularity in MT power plants, but one of the primary steps in my re-simplification process is going to be to get rid of that granularity -- power plants will only come in pre-figured 250 Mw blocks (which @ TL 15 round nicely to 1 dton volume, 2.8 MCr price, and 1.5 dton/wk required fuel).

As for the different definitions of agility from HG to MT, I understand it in theory but IIRC isn't the application exactly the same in both -- craft agility rating (0-6+) used as a negative DM on the opponent's to hit tasks? I'm not convinced that the MT method of figuring agility has a high enough cost/benefit ratio over the HG method for me to switch (significant extra calculation for essentially the same in-game result). I think I'll have to try designing a few ships both ways (with and without mass, using HG and MT's agility formulae) to see for myself whether or not the benefits of compatability really outweigh the hassle of the extra calculations.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
(which @ TL 15 round nicely to 1 dton volume, 2.8 MCr price, and 1.5 dton/wk required fuel).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ACK! I just realized that while the above figure is correct, the HG figure I was comparing to is 1 ton of fuel required for 1 EP of power plant for 4 weeks -- so the MT plants aren't 1.5 times as fuel-hungry, they're 6 times as fuel hungry! No wonder they changed the jump-fuel consumption formula, and no wonder I used to install a separate power plant for the weapon systems with only 24 hrs duration (I'm not smart enough to have come up with that on my own, I must've read it somewhere).

So, each 250 Mw of power production @ TL 15 costs MCr 2.8, takes up 1 dton of volume, and requires 0.2 dtons of fuel per day (or ~6 dtons for 4 weeks).
 
Simplification is also possible in other directions, but you said you wanted formulas over tables. I note that HG was hardly formula dominated...

If you are going to computer-automate design, then formulas or easily derived tables are a good thing. If you want more of a "paper and pencil simple", then go for tables and "clumping" of hardware into groups. This was successfully used by the MT era's most prolific designer (that I'm aware of) to design literally hundreds of ships, craft, and vehicles without computer aid, often while watching TV and with paper, pencil and calculator. If you haven't seen the Dean Files, go looking. Rob Dean was responsible for more MT designs (primarily posted to the TML) than anyone else, in print or otherwise, that I've ever heard mentioned...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
I know that there's more granularity in MT power plants, but one of the primary steps in my re-simplification process is going to be to get rid of that granularity -- power plants will only come in pre-figured 250 Mw blocks (which @ TL 15 round nicely to 1 dton volume, 2.8 MCr price, and 1.5 dton/wk required fuel).

As for the different definitions of agility from HG to MT, I understand it in theory but IIRC isn't the application exactly the same in both -- craft agility rating (0-6+) used as a negative DM on the opponent's to hit tasks? I'm not convinced that the MT method of figuring agility has a high enough cost/benefit ratio over the HG method for me to switch (significant extra calculation for essentially the same in-game result). I think I'll have to try designing a few ships both ways (with and without mass, using HG and MT's agility formulae) to see for myself whether or not the benefits of compatability really outweigh the hassle of the extra calculations.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In HG, agility also was used for other, movement-like, purposes. In MT, it is SOLELY used for reducing opponents to hits.

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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
 
I have been working on something similar for FFS2. It will probably be done in a few weeks.

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"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao
 
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