Shooting people with lasers
- Thread starter spacedog
- Start date
There is a big discussion o0ver this and we are all waiting on a qualification from Marc. Personally i do them sequentially, the Pen reduces armour then the burn is applied, but i do combat somewhat differently from what some people think the system should be applied.
The added up column on the left is only if your using the NPC mook rules where NPC's are taken out if you do more than 10 points of damage. Again i don't use them since i hate mook rules, everyone in my universe operates under the same rules whether for combat or for everyday affairs.
The added up column on the left is only if your using the NPC mook rules where NPC's are taken out if you do more than 10 points of damage. Again i don't use them since i hate mook rules, everyone in my universe operates under the same rules whether for combat or for everyday affairs.
andycowley
SOC-10
Licheking has it right .... this has been a major debate for quite some time and as yet unaddressed in errata or the omnipresent/omnipotent Marc 
In my personal campaign (and against Players not NPCs) I have been rolling the effects against armor separately ... but I have discovered thru' experience that this method is poorly balanced. This was not so bad in actions with players armored with Cloth or Vacc Suits but it becomes a real problem when players get their hands on Military grade armor such as Combat armor or Battle Dress .... I'm going to change my personal game to SUM all the effects against armor in one roll and see how it goes ... This still stays true to the BBB RAW but I await feedback from official errata (via Don/Marc) with great anticipation ...
In my personal campaign (and against Players not NPCs) I have been rolling the effects against armor separately ... but I have discovered thru' experience that this method is poorly balanced. This was not so bad in actions with players armored with Cloth or Vacc Suits but it becomes a real problem when players get their hands on Military grade armor such as Combat armor or Battle Dress .... I'm going to change my personal game to SUM all the effects against armor in one roll and see how it goes ... This still stays true to the BBB RAW but I await feedback from official errata (via Don/Marc) with great anticipation ...
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
... this has been a major debate for quite some time and as yet unaddressed in errata or the omnipresent/omnipotent Marc
Yep, this is one of the many problems with T5. The answer is: No one really knows except Marc, and he hasn't been sayin' (I'm guessing he's waiting to bring it out in a Players Guide or something?)
Best advice: Use your own logic and go with your best guess.
The way I read the rules, combat effects are not applied until the ‘Situation’ phase of the next turn (p217). Thus you do not combine different damage effects but apply each independently. The second damage effect cannot take advantage of the result of the first damage effect because it hasn't been applied yet. Otherwise why have different effects that do the same damage type (Burn and Pen both cause Hits)?
The answer is to model different penetration capabilities. Contrast the stated laser weapon (Burn-2, Pen-2) with an ABC-9 (which does Bullet-4). For an un-armoured target they both do 4D of Hits. But for an armoured target, the ABC-9 has a higher penetration: it does a single 4D against armour compared with the laser’s two 2D.
andycowley
SOC-10
Hemdian,
Your logic (in the second paragraph) is sound ... but it is just such clarification that we all eagerly await either via errata or directly from the mouth of his holiness
My particular experience however is that game balance is skewed between weapons and armor .... this imbalance becomes particularly noticeable for military grade armor in person to person combat .... Using Std TL14 Battle Dress as an example (Ar=45)... I build an Improved Heavy Fusion Gun Man Portable 14 with Pen 8 Burn 4 from the BBB RAW ...which is unfortunately ineffective against the Battle Dress wearing opponent (<1% to penetrate) .... This either causes me to call in the armored cavalry Grav Tanks with their Improved vHy Fusion Cannon 14's with Pen 14 Burn 4 (with an ~70% chance to penetrate with Pen 14 effect) or break out the white flag ....
Thus I am personally moving the goal posts a little closer to the kicker by combining the effects (vs. Armor) to see how it plays ...
P.S. What boggles the mind is that this didn't come out in Beta testing game play .... what was the consensus of those participants?
Your logic (in the second paragraph) is sound ... but it is just such clarification that we all eagerly await either via errata or directly from the mouth of his holiness
My particular experience however is that game balance is skewed between weapons and armor .... this imbalance becomes particularly noticeable for military grade armor in person to person combat .... Using Std TL14 Battle Dress as an example (Ar=45)... I build an Improved Heavy Fusion Gun Man Portable 14 with Pen 8 Burn 4 from the BBB RAW ...which is unfortunately ineffective against the Battle Dress wearing opponent (<1% to penetrate) .... This either causes me to call in the armored cavalry Grav Tanks with their Improved vHy Fusion Cannon 14's with Pen 14 Burn 4 (with an ~70% chance to penetrate with Pen 14 effect) or break out the white flag ....
Thus I am personally moving the goal posts a little closer to the kicker by combining the effects (vs. Armor) to see how it plays ...
P.S. What boggles the mind is that this didn't come out in Beta testing game play .... what was the consensus of those participants?
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Hemdian,
Your logic (in the second paragraph) is sound ... but it is just such clarification that we all eagerly await either via errata or directly from the mouth of his holiness
I like what Hemdian is saying as well. My own thoughts have gone that way, but we are waiting on clarification.
This is what scares me most about T5. In my digging through the rules effort, I've come across several subsystems and neat ways of handling things in the game. But, I've questioned how they would all fit together.
I think, what you say above, is going to become evident in many different sections of the game as it is played and people become familiar with the rules.
I have a similar issue with wound severity and the healing rules, but I'm waiting to see what Marc says about that subsystem.
From what I've read, much of this stuff did come out in the Beta, and Marc seems to have ignored comments on it for whatever reason.
But, I've said for a long time now, the T5 Ref needs to be prepared to constantly House Rule his game because T5, as written, doesn't make sense in a lot of areas. In my view, T5 is an unfinished product--the most broken (unfinished) set of rpg rules I've ever encountered.
David Johansen
SOC-12
I think that's an artifact of T5 attempting to be the most comprehensive and complete rpg you've ever seen. It's trying to do a whole lot of things at once.
My own read is that the total must apply against armor because otherwise the armor doesn't work and it's very counter-intuitive that "penetrate" indicates a less effective weapon. Though it's possible that penetrate dice don't count against armor or something.
I've been in on the beta from the start and I swear there was a page in one version of combat that actually explained the damage effects and was left out in the version of T5 that got published.
My own read is that the total must apply against armor because otherwise the armor doesn't work and it's very counter-intuitive that "penetrate" indicates a less effective weapon. Though it's possible that penetrate dice don't count against armor or something.
I've been in on the beta from the start and I swear there was a page in one version of combat that actually explained the damage effects and was left out in the version of T5 that got published.
nathanolla
SOC-1
I don't know where I got the impression, but I had the idea that Pen damage should be doubled vs. Armor and halved (back to its normal amount) when applying damage.
A quick scan through the weapons seems to suggest that weapons that seem "anti-armor" tend to have Pen damage.
On pg. 217 the following weapon categories have Pen damage:
My thought is that these are intended to be superior at armor penetration.
That seems like it might solve the "armor is too good" problem, at what cost I don't know.
A quick scan through the weapons seems to suggest that weapons that seem "anti-armor" tend to have Pen damage.
On pg. 217 the following weapon categories have Pen damage:
- Laser
- Fusion
- Anti-Tank
- Acid
- Fire
My thought is that these are intended to be superior at armor penetration.
That seems like it might solve the "armor is too good" problem, at what cost I don't know.
I have always assumed that there was meant to be different effects applied to each of the damage types and thats what i did in my own interpretation of the combat rules. You can see the same ethos in the starship weapons master doc, where each type of weapon had some sort of effect applied beyond the dice.
Still? how long has it been now?
There was some errata produced but then Marc had to take time out to deal with some undisclosed personal matters (possibly family-related?). But from what we've heard he has just now (in March) resumed. So hopefully we should get some more errata soon. Just have to be patient a little while longer.
David Johansen
SOC-12
I think he could fix the combat issues in about three short paragraphs. I wish he would.
1 - how do damage types differ?
2 - how are damage types applied?
3 - You can move and snap fire with single shot weapons without gaining the damage bonus right?
1 - how do damage types differ?
2 - how are damage types applied?
3 - You can move and snap fire with single shot weapons without gaining the damage bonus right?
This could quickly devolve into a rehash but what I'd like to see resolved is:
1 - You should be able to fire some single shot weapons on the move (eg. revolvers and autopistols, but not LAW rockets). Currently the rules do not allow any single shot weapons to move and fire.
2 - Are movement damage bonuses applied just to D1, or to D1, D2, and D3?
3 - Where is the boundary between R=0 and R=1? (Given that there is an R=T and R=R between them but these are not used in combat.)
4 - Some weapons should have different ammo types available. (eg. a shotgun can only fire bullets but it should also be able to fire 'shot'.)
Plus the 'mook' damage system is broken.
Also, I think an example of one combat round shown end-to-end would clear up a lot of confusion.
In the games we've played, we have to sum the damage types to reasonably penetrate armor. However, to get the most out of pen damage, we apply it first, because pen does only half damage against characteristics.
Example of how I handle damage:
Lawrence 'Boomer' Hannegan is wearing a low-quality vacc suit with AV 6, and gets hit by a laser which does Pen-2 Burn-2.
I roll 2D for pen first, for 10 points. The armor soaks the first 6 points of pen. The remaining 4 points are halved (to 2 points) and applied to one characteristic.
Then I roll 2 more dice for the burn damage, a 5 and a 3. Burn damage is not halved, so Val's character gets 5 points and 3 points against his characteristics.
Example of how I handle damage:
Lawrence 'Boomer' Hannegan is wearing a low-quality vacc suit with AV 6, and gets hit by a laser which does Pen-2 Burn-2.
I roll 2D for pen first, for 10 points. The armor soaks the first 6 points of pen. The remaining 4 points are halved (to 2 points) and applied to one characteristic.
Then I roll 2 more dice for the burn damage, a 5 and a 3. Burn damage is not halved, so Val's character gets 5 points and 3 points against his characteristics.
That's a good idea.
I can re-create one of the skirmishes by my gaming group, but I suggest we massage it a bit to illustrate a handgun-snapshot, a possible reload scenario, and the creative use of damage types to represent different ammunition types. I can then pass it to Don and Marc for review and comments.
nathanolla thought he'd read something similar but I can't find the reference to this. What page is that on?
