SHIPBUILDING: Class-B & C Starports in T5

[aramis]

Perhaps the issue of installing Jump Drives requires precision milling of rare components that requires specialized, dedicated, and highly expensive equipment to calibrate them and/or install them.

But, if that's the case, then only such a yard should be able to repair them.

 

[rancke]

Actually it assumes that the IN will haul parts for its own ships to a shipyard that is building them so that they can take advantage of the latest technological advantages.

Same thing.

When General Yards builds civilian ships, the Navy isn't invested.

Obviously.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

This is how I rationalise it.

TL15 maintenance and repair facilities exist on any Imperial world with an IN base.

The base has to be able to refuel any fleet that comes calling, and repair and refit battle damage, which may include jump drive repair and/or replacement.

So a world has an A class starport, but is only TL10 say. It also happens to have an IN base.
This world can build civilian ships at TL 10 but can also construct TL15 IN ships using the IN facility (it way even use a local company as the sub-contractor, granting them access to the TL15 stuff they need to build the IN ships).

We also know from canon that the IN ships major weaponry from where it is built to where it is to be fitted.

It would be nice if just for once the MgT rules and the T5 rules could actually say the same thing on a subject...

 

[rancke]

TL15 maintenance and repair facilities exist on any Imperial world with an IN base.

The base has to be able to refuel any fleet that comes calling, and repair and refit battle damage, which may include jump drive repair and/or replacement.

Sounds reasonable.

So a world has an A class starport, but is only TL10 say. It also happens to have an IN base.

Like pre-retcon Regina.

This world can build civilian ships at TL 10 but can also construct TL15 IN ships using the IN facility (it way even use a local company as the sub-contractor, granting them access to the TL15 stuff they need to build the IN ships).

Or it can use its facilities without adding the complication of involving civilian companies at all. Remember, governments can build ships for themselves even if the local starport class is E, i.e. no civilian shipyard at all. And I can't really see the IN being happy with the idea of having a TL10 shipyard build a TL10 hull (much bigger volume taken up by the armor) with TL10 power plants (three time the volume) for them and then adding the odd TL15 component.

Has anyone reverse-engineered the original Kinunir and figured out the TL of the armor and the power plant?

We also know from canon that the IN ships major weaponry from where it is built to where it is to be fitted.

That could be because the IN doesn't have to do things the economic way since it has a benevolent government to tax the member worlds and cover any shortfalls. Civilian shipyards, OTOH, have to make a small profit.

It would be nice if just for once the MgT rules and the T5 rules could actually say the same thing on a subject...

Amen to that.


Hans

 

[robject]

It would be nice if just for once the MgT rules and the T5 rules could actually say the same thing on a subject...

Seconded.

 

[whulorigan]

It would be nice if just for once the MgT rules and the T5 rules could actually say the same thing on a subject...

Amen to that.

Seconded.

Thirded.

And one of the primary reasons that inspired me to start the thread.

 

[atpollard]

Perhaps the issue of installing Jump Drives requires precision milling of rare components that requires specialized, dedicated, and highly expensive equipment to calibrate them and/or install them.

But, if that's the case, then only such a yard should be able to repair them.

Yeah, the claim that they can't build it but can repair it becomes hard to swallow.
How can I completely rebuild an engine in my Class B shop, but I can't install a crate motor?

I feel that they either need to make it about size (C = small craft, B = Adventure Class, A = Capital Ships) or say that Class B cannot repair Jump Drives.
(As you say, "Sorry, we just don't have the equipment for that sort of work.")

 

[whulorigan]

Imported Components. Some components and mechanisms can be imported from neighboring shipyards with the appropriate tech level. Standard mechanisms at TL +1 are available and can be imported at their standard cost plus 10%.

Problem there: The rule that components can be imported eliminates the sole explanation why a boatyard can't build starships. If it can install maneuver drives and power plants, is there any possible reason why it should not be able to uncrate a jump drive and install it? I can't think of any.

Yeah, the claim that they can't build it but can repair it becomes hard to swallow.
How can I completely rebuild an engine in my Class B shop, but I can't install a crate motor?

As stated previously, it would be nice if the most current versions of the rulesets had a certain degree of agreement on basic things such as this. Since MgT and T5 are both current versions of Traveller Rules, the points above are good arguments in favor of the MgT interpretation (or some variation of it).

I feel that they either need to make it about size (C = small craft, B = Adventure Class, A = Capital Ships) . . .

Which meshes nicely with the T5 definitions for ships.

 

[Selandia]

As said previously, any yard that can do major repairs can build with imported part. Is there a BUSINESS going on? IMHO A, B, C tels you what is the economic oportunity comercially exploited in a viable fashion. And incidentaly available to PC.

If Regina is back ordered, Paya may offer a Time to delivery that makes Rethan's ships owner willing to buy Paya.

Real world examples are légions if required.

Have fun

Selandia

p,s, hospital for a week so do not expect answers

 

[rancke]

As said previously, any yard that can do major repairs can build with imported part. Is there a BUSINESS going on? IMHO A, B, C tels you what is the economic oportunity comercially exploited in a viable fashion. And incidentaly available to PC.

But the rules don't support that interpretation. Who is assigning starport ratings and for what purpose? What's the difference between Class A and Class B if it isn't that you can't get a jump ship on a Class B? And what's the reason why the rules don't reflect "reality"?

Maybe Class B starport don't build starships even though theoretically they could?

If Regina is back ordered, Paya may offer a Time to delivery that makes Rethan's ships owner willing to buy Paya.

I don't think Paya has the population to support the infrastructure to manufacture ship components. Apparently it has one of those yards that can do major repairs and rely on imports to build starships.


Hans

 

[Selandia]

But the rules don't support that interpretation. Who is assigning starport ratings and for what purpose? What's the difference between Class A and Class B if it isn't that you can't get a jump ship on a Class B? And what's the reason why the rules don't reflect "reality"?

IMHO the rules should reflect the "reality" that matters to the PC and T5 rules in force (at least as far as ACS shipping is concerned ) support my interpretation of the player's environmental "reality".

BTW The various actual certification authoritieS (T5 involve many polities), if any for a specific planet, are probably producing their own Atlas and make their calls based upon their criterias of choice.

Maybe Class B starport don't build starships even though theoretically they could?

Agreed, that is the essence of my point. Difference is about what business exist, (and they do not exist without a profit), So yes, if a B yard owner believed that a market existed and got a source of cheap J drive import, his B yard could advertize as A class, acknowledged as a A class by a Certification Soc, and demonstrated as a A class by floating out a Starhip. However if nobody on Regina or Feri (or other world) accept to sell jump drive.... Paya will loose its A rating.

I don't think Paya has the population to support the infrastructure to manufacture ship components. Apparently it has one of those yards that can do major repairs and rely on imports to build starships.


Hans

Agreed

have fun

Selandia

 

[robject]

MgT B-Ports allow the construction of ships of any type (including starships) up to 5000 dton (and C-Ports can build small-craft).

By the way: Is this the current version of Mongoose Traveller? Page reference?

 

[aramis]

By the way: Is this the current version of Mongoose Traveller? Page reference?

Both MGT 1E (page 178, table at bottom), and 2E beta page 233.

 

[Ulsyus]

A few years back Indonesia had a pseudo-car industry. Under the ol' dictator Suharto there were import taxes on cars, but not car parts. An enterprising chap decided to import parts for BMWs. Lots of parts. Chassis, engines, drive trains, seats, the who shebang. Then he had the parts assembled in Java and sold them as BMWs. Of course they weren't the same, but he was able to do it for a while without copping import duties, and so made a killing.

Building a ship isn't just a matter of assembling parts. It's manufacturing those parts in the first place. A yard on a world without a full spectrum of manufacturers of parts can't build a ship from local resources.

Hans

Agreed, except as was said earlier for the parts that are imported.

Perhaps the issue of installing Jump Drives requires precision milling of rare components that requires specialized, dedicated, and highly expensive equipment to calibrate them and/or install them.

But, if that's the case, then only such a yard should be able to repair them.

Maybe it's not the jump drives that's the critical construction component, but the grid within the hull. Even then, if construction methods allow for modularisation of hull sections prior to final fabrication (as with large ships today) then even that wouldn't stop parts being shipped from one system to another. But why would they? What's the bottom dollar element of building a starship at a B Class port from components manufactured elsewhere, as opposed to building it at the A Class port where everything's at hand?

 

[kilemall]

Well, 10% import cost sounds kinda crazy, I could buy that for standard Traveller LBB2 type ships but not HG-type custom builds (if that dynamic still exists in T5).

I would think use the Striker economics chart where you can easily be paying 3x the cost because it is not natively produced and has to be shipped in and handled specially since the local crew is trained and educated to local TL standards.

And possibly after install problems with maintenance costing more because the component does not 'mesh' well with the rest of the ship.

 

[robject]

Both MGT 1E (page 178, table at bottom), and 2E beta page 233.

The text I have says this for Starport Facilities. This isn't the PDF, though.

Class B
quality Good
Berthing Cost 1D x Cr500
Fuel Refined
Facilities Shipyard (spacecraft) Repair
(+Bases stuff)

 

[whulorigan]

The text I have says this for Starport Facilities. This isn't the PDF, though.

Class B
.
.
.
Facilities Shipyard (spacecraft) Repair . . .

The MgT definition of Spacecraft is any ship larger than a small craft (Jump or non-Jump).
MgT defines a specific term for non-Jump capable vessels larger than 100 tons: "System Ship".

If MgT had meant to imply B-Class Ports can only build non-Jump capable vessels, it would have said System Ship instead of Space Craft.

 

[robject]

The MgT definition of Spacecraft is any ship larger than a small craft (Jump or non-Jump).
MgT defines a specific term for non-Jump capable vessels larger than 100 tons: "System Ship".

If MgT had meant to imply B-Class Ports can only build non-Jump capable vessels, it would have said System Ship instead of Space Craft.

Sounds like a definition problem. Mongoose more or less took the wording for starports from CT, but re-defined ship terms in the ship ops section. Unintended consequence: there is no Class B, just a small Class A.

 

[whulorigan]

Sounds like a definition problem. Mongoose more or less took the wording for starports from CT, but re-defined ship terms in the ship ops section. Unintended consequence: there is no Class B, just a small Class A.

Possibly. But it is a definition which to me seems to make more sense, whether an intentional change or an accidental oversight. But as far as I can tell, MgT is consistent in its usage in this regard.

I guess it is probably a question for MongooseMatt.

 

[robject]

I guess it is probably a question for MongooseMatt.

I've brought it up with Matt and Marc.