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SHIPBUILDING: Class-B & C Starports in T5

whulorigan

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Over on the Hidden Pirate Base Thread in the Lone Star Forum, a question was raised as to the likelihood that something similar to the MgT definition of Class B & C Starports' shipbuilding capabilities might be implemented in the T5.1 definitions of Class B & C Starports.

In essence, the B-Class port has always been somewhat of an anomaly since its only distinguishing characteristic as compared to an A-Class Port is the inability to build ships with Jump-Drives (i.e. it can build spaceboats/systemships, but not starships *). MgT B-Ports allow the construction of ships of any type (including starships) up to 5000 dton (and C-Ports can build small-craft).
* i.e. What would be the motivation for a world to build a B-Class Port?
Perhaps for T5.1, a B-Class Port could build ships (of any type) up to 2500 dton (i.e. Adventure Class Ships), whereas an A-Class Port would be required for Battle Class ships?

Is this something that MWM might consider for T5.1? What would be the pros/cons and/or setting implications for such a change in definition if it were implemented?
 
Personally, I sort of like the idea of the proposed change, but just to play Devil's Advocate, let me defend the Class A/Class B/Class C status quo ...

Class C Starport:
Can manufacture, service and repair small craft. These capabilities also enable it to perform many repairs on Adventure Class Ships (which for this discussion, let's define as Starships in the 100 to 1000 dTon Range capable of landing on a planet's surface.) This paints, in broad strokes, an image of a starport designed to serve a world capable of reaching space, but with no real need or desire (or lacking the resources) to exploit the star-system as a whole. A typical Class C starport would have only a downport (no highport). It would have access to orbit via small craft to accommodate the arrival of any ship incapable of landing on the planet. The Planet itself would probably be focused on cis-lunar space, operating almost exclusively within the 100 diameter sphere of the main-world. Thus it might have orbital farms or solar power satellites or even lunar mining. However, the dominant focus is on the main-world, and especially the surface of the main-world.


Class B Starport:
Can manufacture and repair small craft and boats (non-jump capable ships). The starport typically includes both a downport and a highport. This is not by accident, because the Starport is also a major spaceport on the main-world of a system where the entire star-system is economically linked into a vast commercial web.

Gas giants are home to massive fixed fuel processing and petrochemical commercial outposts that are part space settlement, part highport, and part industrial complex ... large 'company cities' floating above the Gas Giant. Small Craft shuttle people from the main-world to the gas giant in regularly scheduled commercial flights. Giant tankers shuttle unrefined fuel and petrochemicals in bulk to the waiting markets on the homeworld.

The Asteroid Belts bristle with prospectors looking for the next big strike, and Industrial Conglomerates with operations that steadily chew asteroids and spit out common and special alloys. Carbon, a waste in most places, is sold in bulk at the gas giant to manufacture hydrocarbons using the abundant local hydrogen. In turn, the mining operation has a vast craving for the unrefined fuel to keep the power plants running.

Transporting these supplies back and forth requires a lot of boats and small craft, that need maintenance and repair and eventually wear out and need replacement. That is what supports a Class B starport in this system.


Class A Starport:
The best of the best. The shipyard can manufacture any starship you might need, and with good reason. Like an Airport that is a Transportation Hub, this Starport includes a downport and a highport that are not sized for the local planetary needs, or even the system needs, but for the larger regional needs of the subsector. The world and starport are important as a source of goods, and a destination for goods, but they are also important as a distribution node for goods. A place for vast quantities of Computer Parts to arrive and the be broken down into a dozen smaller shipments bound for worlds that could never have required the full cargo load. It is to the Class A starport that the Subsidized Merchant goes to sell what the backwater worlds produce and buy what they need. The Class A starport is the Mercantile Exchange for everything within 6 to 12 parsecs. It is an economic powerhouse beyond what the world produces or consumes.

Each class of Starport serves a different purpose and has different capabilities and has a different intangible quality beyond the simple features or game mechanics ... a starport "genius loci" (spirit of the place) ... that makes it unique.
 
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Any yard capable to perform major repairs should be able to build, inasmuch as build mean assembly. However, if that would be at an inefficient cost (say a cost beyond the cost stated in the rules), the rating would says "Major repairs" rather than "Built" because the global shipping economic of the system/cluster...etc mean that there is no building business going on there.

Furthermore, for works to be certified by a surveyor of shipping for insurance purpose, skill certificates and tooling of the yard will be asesssed. Major repairs will probably need the same or better certification than building yards. (following set piece instructions is easier than figuring how the hell could this be fixed).

I know that the temptation is strong to rate yards in accordance with their size, given the above, or with the size of the largest ship they can process, because it makes sense. However, the rerliable availability of what type of service is what likely matters for ship dependant adventurers.

Ok, Merchant Prince campaign run from the Spire of Commerce with elevator travel as the closest thing to making orbit may be différents as you might actually buy a shipyad for vertical integration purpose.... Pocket Empire will make you head of Bureau Of Shipping and forced to figure where your 500KT could dock... but ACS? For whatever reason what is rated is what is available to PC.

I am quite happy to live with that

Selandia
 
Any yard capable to perform major repairs should be able to build, inasmuch as build mean assembly. However, if that would be at an inefficient cost (say a cost beyond the cost stated in the rules), the rating would says "Major repairs" rather than "Built" because the global shipping economic of the system/cluster...etc mean that there is no building business going on there.
Building a ship isn't just a matter of assembling parts. It's manufacturing those parts in the first place. A yard on a world without a full spectrum of manufacturers of parts can't build a ship from local resources.


Hans
 
How does a system with TL C produce starships with TL F? By importing parts that cannot be manufactured locally.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka
 
How does a system with TL C produce starships with TL F? By importing parts that cannot be manufactured locally.
Sure, but the shipbuilding rules (the old ones, anyway) specifically states that ships are built at the world's tech level. So the answer is, it doesn't.


Hans
 
I suppose I'd need to drag my sorry self over to the MgT discussion to get the context of the thread. Lacking that, I can sniff out what's in T5.09 and see what's there.

I have no problems with Marc porting stuff into Traveller5, including from Mongoose Traveller (I have successfully lobbied a couple of nuances into T5 from MgT). The tech in T5 has been imported from other Travellers, after all.

In T5.09,

* the differences between Classes A and B are exactly starship versus spacecraft, and different probabilities of Naval and Scout bases.

The "con" I might see is that it further erodes the definition of the Class B starport, making it even more like a "small A port". I don't know if Marc would see it that way.


Regarding the building of starships, I think it's long established across most or all Traveller rules that worlds can build starships, regardless of whether or not the starport can, depending on their TL. And from there we get into manufacturing and interstellar parts -- presumably modular components -- imported.
 
What I ACTUALLY Thought

What I ACTUALLY thought when I read this thread's title was:

"Oh cool, someone's thinking about BUILDING a Class B or C starport using ACS!"
 
Building a ship isn't just a matter of assembling parts. It's manufacturing those parts in the first place. A yard on a world without a full spectrum of manufacturers of parts can't build a ship from local resources.


Hans

Change manufacturing for procuring and I agree with your first sentence. As to the fact that a yard might not built a ship from local resources, I do not see that as a problem. A yard not have to relies on local production of part to be rated A, B or C for PC. Where the yard find parts: local scrap yard, local manufacturing, import, would be relevant only if some adventuring consideration make it so.

If you mean that T5 port rating is based on world capability rather than availability to players, please explain Paya, spin 2509 A 655241-9
pop hundreds: "...full Spectrum of manufacturers of part..." including the raw material extration, the various transformations, the workforce training and life sustaining industries?

If you mean that it "should" be based on world capability (and the yard alongside the navy base at Paya rated D ?), in T6, then it would be misleading in term of availability to players since commerce does spread tech item not produced locally. The issue is "where do I find a supplier" not "Where my suppliers gets it" (unless gaming consideration such a smuggling or fencing get involved). Could a ship owner on Rethe, J-1 away from Paya order a ship from there? Under T5 yes. Even if the actual working of that yard might be a mystery.

have fun

Selandia
 
Sure, but the shipbuilding rules (the old ones, anyway) specifically states that ships are built at the world's tech level. So the answer is, it doesn't.


Hans

But T5 specifically allows for the import of higher tech level components.

Imported Components. Some components and mechanisms can be imported from neighboring shipyards with the appropriate tech level.
Standard mechanisms at TL +1 are available and can be imported at their standard cost plus 10%.

So a Standard Jump Drive could be imported and installed in a hull. For example a Standard J2 Drive is TL11 could be installed at a Yard on a TL10 world.

However....

T5 says a Class B Starport has a Yard that can produce Spacecraft as opposed to Starships, which by definition have Jump Drives

Further clarification is needed.
 
So a Standard Jump Drive could be imported and installed in a hull. For example a Standard J2 Drive is TL11 could be installed at a Yard on a TL10 world.

However....

T5 says a Class B Starport has a Yard that can produce Spacecraft as opposed to Starships, which by definition have Jump Drives

Further clarification is needed.

Procurement is fine, and the class B clearly is not a custom shop, but it doesn't build starships. Looks like it could repair them, though. The rules may look a little muddy, but that sort of freedom is what the referee is going to be using anyhow.

Now as far as it goes as a Guide To Core Rules, yes some clarity would help.
 
Change manufacturing for procuring and I agree with your first sentence. As to the fact that a yard might not built a ship from local resources, I do not see that as a problem. A yard not have to relies on local production of part to be rated A, B or C for PC. Where the yard find parts: local scrap yard, local manufacturing, import, would be relevant only if some adventuring consideration make it so.
The rule that ships are built at the TL of the world is obviously a simplification, but presumably it has some basis in "reality". Such as the rule that Reban quotes to the effect that imported components cost +10%. This would make such ships more expensive and less competitive, and so it is rarely done and instead of being a feature that a publisher can just print, it becomes a strange feature that requires an explanation.

(Now, if you were to ask me why importing a jump drive increases the cost by Cr160,000 per DT instead of the freight charge of Cr1000 per dT, I would be stumped. ;) )

If you mean that T5 port rating is based on world capability rather than availability to players, please explain Paya, spin 2509 A 655241-9
pop hundreds: "...full Spectrum of manufacturers of part..." including the raw material extration, the various transformations, the workforce training and life sustaining industries?
The original writer didn't think it through and the writeup of Paya is chock full of oddity?

If you mean that it "should" be based on world capability (and the yard alongside the navy base at Paya rated D ?), in T6, then it would be misleading in term of availability to players since commerce does spread tech item not produced locally. The issue is "where do I find a supplier" not "Where my suppliers gets it" (unless gaming consideration such a smuggling or fencing get involved). Could a ship owner on Rethe, J-1 away from Paya order a ship from there? Under T5 yes. Even if the actual working of that yard might be a mystery.
The problem I have with that is that inexplicable features can ruin suspension of disbelief. Paya just shouldn't have a Class A starport, because there's no plausible way to account for Class A activities there. Repair and maintenance for Oberlindes ships, sure. Sale of starships to Rethan multi-millionaires, not really on, IMO. Why didn't he order one from Regina and save several million credits?


Hans
 
Procurement is fine, and the class B clearly is not a custom shop, but it doesn't build starships. Looks like it could repair them, though. The rules may look a little muddy, but that sort of freedom is what the referee is going to be using anyhow.
Problem there: The rule that components can be imported eliminates the sole explanation why a boatyard can't build starships. If it can install maneuver drives and power plants, is there any possible reason why it should not be able to uncrate a jump drive and install it? I can't think of any.


Hans
 
Sure, but the shipbuilding rules (the old ones, anyway) specifically states that ships are built at the world's tech level. So the answer is, it doesn't.

Check out CT Adventure 1 The Kinunir. General Shipyards on Regina built Kinunirs (though they had a poor reputation). When it was written, Regina was considered TL A (which as since been bumped up to TL C). Some of the components are TL F components.

"It also has to make sense," and having the components shipped in makes a lot of sense to me.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka
 
Check out CT Adventure 1 The Kinunir. General Shipyards on Regina built Kinunirs (though they had a poor reputation). When it was written, Regina was considered TL A (which as since been bumped up to TL C). Some of the components are TL F components.
Yes, The Kinunirs appear to have broken the rules comprehensively. Though someone once claimed that it was actually legal under the 1st printing rules. I can't figure that out myself.

"It also has to make sense," and having the components shipped in makes a lot of sense to me.
Having the components shipped in from Rhylanor at inflated costs makes sense to you?

Anyway, see the other posts in the thread.


Hans
 
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Actually, I would store them at the Naval base at Inthe and ship them from there.
That assumes that the Imperial Navy hauls cargo for civilian companies, and that it furthermore does so for free. Otherwise the effect is exactly the same, since the naval base at Inthe has to get its TL15 parts from Rhylanor (or other TL15 worlds).


Hans
 
This is what I did IMTU

IMTU growing a perfect Zuchai crystal is the hard part of making a jump drive, just like making single-crystal turbine blades is the secret sauce behind Rolls-Royce Trent turbines.

The core of a jump drive is based around this single, large, perfect Zuchai crystal - a small one weighs a few hundred kilos and a large one is the size of a railway locomotive. Higher tech levels let you build bigger and more pure crystals that let you dump more energy into them for the jump - and thus jump drives with a longer range and higher capacity.

A class-A starport is one that has a jump drive factory and the facilities for final fitting, calibration and testing of a jump-capable ship. These facilities are complex and expensive so not every shipyard has them. They may be state-subsidised as a strategic measure to ensure that a given polity has that capability.

A class-B starport can manufacture hulls or hull components (in much the same way that Boeing or Airbus subcontracts manufacture of parts to third parties). It may also support an industry in intra-system craft, or even shuttles that mostly do sub-orbital hops between points on a planet.

However, this sort of thing is only relevant for situations like Trillion Credit Squadron where players are building their own fleets within the constraints of their available resources. If you're just running a Traveller campaign then this isn't the sort of thing your players will be directly involved in, so it doesn't materially affect game balance.

As an aside, IMTU I've tended to frig the distribution of tech levels into a sort of bi-modal curve. There will tend to be a cluster of high-tech worlds within 1-2 tech levels of each other, which represents a sort of industrial state-of-the-art. The rest will drift over a distribution centered around a sort of third-world economy with few exports. Technology will centre around the sort of thing that could be manufactured and maintained with a third-world economy, typically TL4-6 fossil-fuel economies with some imported high-tech goods.

The assumption here is that once a planetary economy achieves a certain level of affluence any reasonably wealthy world will drift to having somewhere around the ambient tech level of the universe within a couple of generations. Any world that does not get that economic critical mass will largely have an economy of whatever can be manufactured locally without offworld investment. Without any valuable trade goods a world tends to be stuck in the latter mode with no real economic incentive for offworld investment, except perhaps in an exploitative way to extract agricultural or mineral resources.

The transition from one to the other is a sort of tipping point where a domestic economy gets large enough to grow a substantial industrial base and develop a significant affluent middle class. When this happens a world will move to a developed economy within a few generations.
 
That assumes that the Imperial Navy hauls cargo for civilian companies, and that it furthermore does so for free.

Actually it assumes that the IN will haul parts for its own ships to a shipyard that is building them so that they can take advantage of the latest technological advantages. When General Yards builds civilian ships, the Navy isn't invested.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka
 
Problem there: The rule that components can be imported eliminates the sole explanation why a boatyard can't build starships. If it can install maneuver drives and power plants, is there any possible reason why it should not be able to uncrate a jump drive and install it? I can't think of any.


Hans


Me neither.
 
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