Ship Internal Systems

[Drakon]

Hi,

On modern naval vessels I belive that electrical power gets categorized into different groups depending on how clean the signal is.

Again, based on my ancient experience, this was not a problem. What we did have was a setup for different "busses". You had a parallel redundant electrical system with two "Vital" busses, 2 "Non-vital" busses, 2 DC busses and 2 "tie" busses. Your DC power supplies, (batteries, or for Traveller, solar panels) would power the DC busses, your electrical generators would power the "non-vital" busses, and the tie busses would allow you to cross connect the 2 DC busses or 2 AC busses.

This allows you to power either vital bus from both AC generators, as well as whatever DC supply you have running, batteries, solar panels, deisel. That way, if any one power supply fails, the vital bus (and any equipment tied to that bus) is still running. You can swap which bus is the "Vital" bus by setting the right collection of breakers.

Between the AC and DC busses you have Motor Generators, a very cool low tech device that is about 99 percent efficient (if I remember correctly). Essentially it is a DC motor and AC motor wired on the same shaft. You put AC power on the AC side, it produces a DC current and voltage. If you put DC power on its end, you get AC voltage and current out at a frequency governed by the speed of the MG. This plan gives you a lot of flexibility, and redundancy, in case of damage.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi, Thanks for the clarifications

Hi,

Thanks for the clarifications and comments.

Something I'm not fully clear on though is, in looking at the internet here ( http://powerstandards.com/milstds.htm ) it suggests that in current US Navy Standards the definition of Type I, II, & III power are based on limits on several things like allowable sags, interruptions, impulses, unbalances, and harmonics issues. Where, sags are brief reductions in voltage, swells are brief increases in voltage, and that longer periods of low or high voltage are referred to as "undervoltage" or "overvoltage".

Additionally also on that site it indicates that things like low frequency overvoltages are typically caused by capacitor switching, resulting in the capacitor resonating with the inductance of the distribution system.

Which, if I am understanding this stuff correctly, seems to suggest that turning off or on capacitors and/or the discharging of them may potentially have an impact power quality, but my understanding of electrical engineering is kind of limited so I may be misunderstanding this stuff.

The site also talks to stuff like how waveforms can be made up of several sine waves super-imposed ontop of each other and how harmonic disturbances in these built up signals can lead to distortions in both current and voltage, and hence Power Quality.

Anyway, my thinking then was that maybe in Traveller the thought was that maybe the way the black globe "capacitors" are configured, arranged, constructed, and discharged may in some way produce a signal with either harmonic distortions or voltage irregularities that impact the quality of current, voltage, and hence power produced.

But to be honest I was really just looking at it as maybe some kind of pseudo-science/science fiction hand waving to try and justify why the black globe capacitors might not be suitable for powering the jump drive.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Regards

PF

 

[BlackBat242]

But book 5 specifically states that the black globe charges the jump drive's capacitors unless you fit extra ones in.


So it couldn't be due to lower quality of the "black globe capacitors/circuits", now could it?

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

My 0.02Cr:

Capacitors as batteries: I never liked the idea, so I vetoed them from a wargaming standpoint and not an engineering or role-playing standpoint. As I'm sure you're all sick of hearing, my group were wargamers first and role-players second. That meant a wargaming reason worked well with them.

What was my wargaming reason? There's no way you damage additional capacitors via the HG2 damage tables. You can grind out how many jump drive capacitors are lost via jump hits; drop the rating, calculate the new tonnage required for the new rating, substract that from the old tonnage, and then figure the amount of jump drive capacitors that were lost. The trouble is with the additional capacitors any black globe equipped ship is going to have installed(1).

With my players, I argued one of the points Fly has already brought up; the black globe rules were seemingly nifty bits of chrome bolted onto the HG2 without too much thought.


Water: If you have the power, and Traveller starships should have the power, water is no problem. Your only problem is how fast you can purify and recycle it. Aboard USS California the two enginerooms routinely had 'water wars'. We didn't throw water at each other but we did compete to see how low we could squeeze our steam plants' water make-up rates and how much water we could produce from our evaporators. IIRC, we regularly ran the 'evaps' well above 100% of their designed capacity, somewhere around 110 - 120% ISTR. We actually ran out of room to store and, rather than secure the evaps, directed their output to the bilge where it was pumped overboard.

All of this was possible because, with two 250 MW reactors, we had all the power we needed to play with. We did blow through zincs and resins though!


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Have a black globe? You'll need extra capacitors as the jump drive fills up fast. Again, IIRC, the poor old Kinunir, whose low factor globe only works either fully on or fully off, will have full jump capacitors after ~2 factor-9 nuc missile battery hits. When you consider that many canonical escort craft carry factor-9 missile bays, the Kinunir can be fed full to bursting with surprising speed.

 

[Icosahedron]

Just a suggestion, Bill, we're not told *where* the extra capacitors are installed. If they too are within, or adjacent to the Jump Drive, you could simply use the same percentages and destroy more capacitors per hit.

 

[PFVA63]

To BlackBat242...

Hi,

I haven't messed around with Traveller for years and only recently dug most of my stuff out of the attic. As such, I'm not fully up on what all the rule books say. If possible, do you have the page number or section of the book where I can find the stuff on black globes that you mention in your last post? I've got most of the original CT stuff, and some of the MT, TNE and T4stuff, but I haven't had a chance to look through it all yet.

Thanks.

Regards

PF

 

[flykiller]

I haven't messed around with Traveller for years and only recently dug most of my stuff out of the attic.

welcome back!

... do you have the page number or section of the book where I can find the stuff on black globes that you mention in your last post?

High Guard, little black book number 5 published around 1980, pages 42 and 43.

 

[PFVA63]

Thanks

Hi,

Looking through my stuff I saw that I had two copies of LBB 5 but couldn't remember why. I had thought that they were the same, but I see that the one I had been looking through was from 1979, and only has very sparse information on Black Globes. Looking through the other one (which is a 1980 version) I now see the stuff on capacitors, including the somewhat confusing statement about "If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn" on page 43, which is similar to what's in MegaTraveller on pg 96 of the Referee's manual, which on the one hand makes it seems like the absorbed power is being used to power the jump drive, but which also seems like it may be saying that the jump fuel is being used to power the jump drive. And the quote someone else made above from a question and answer from Marc Miller suggests that he hadn't intended that the energy in the capacitors would be powering the jump mechanisms.

I guess one thought I had was that the capacitors used for storing the black globe energy weren't as high quality as the jump drive capacitors and hence the signal coming out of them wouldn't be good enough for use in the jump drive, but as Blackbat242 points out the books state that the black globe energy could be diverted to the jump capacitors so that wouldn't explain why you couln't use that energy to power the jump drive though, and my understanding of electrical engineering is too limited to try and figure anything else out, so I guess I'm stuck and can't really think of any other ideas right now.

Regards

PF

 

[flykiller]

Looking through my stuff I saw that I had two copies of LBB 5 but couldn't remember why. I had thought that they were the same, but I see that the one I had been looking through was from 1979, and only has very sparse information on Black Globes. Looking through the other one ....

hey, sounds like you have a 1st edition high guard. those are kind of rare and a small treasure. the rules were changed somewhat in the second edition and the changes are now the official rules. well, as much as anything in traveller is official ....

... it seems like the absorbed power is being used to power the jump drive, but which also seems like it may be saying that the jump fuel is being used to power the jump drive.

it needs both.

And the quote someone else made above from a question and answer from Marc Miller suggests that he hadn't intended that the energy in the capacitors would be powering the jump mechanisms.

(smile) well, he wrote that it did, so (smile) too bad. anyway, a lot of people here just do it their own way, so feel free to arrange it in any manner that makes sense to you. the idea is to play the game, not to get too bogged down in "engineering" details.

I guess one thought I had was that the capacitors used for storing the black globe energy weren't as high quality as the jump drive capacitors and hence the signal coming out of them wouldn't be good enough for use in the jump drive ....

well, the book does not distinguish between jump drive capacitors and black globe capacitors. and capacitors only store electrostatic charge so the only thing that comes out of them is direct current. they're like a big battery that discharges quickly, no "frequency" at all.

'course you could take up the suggestion that jump drive "capacitors" store something else besides electrostatic charge - maybe gravity or something. have fun with it.

 

[atpollard]

"If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn" ...

... which on the one hand makes it seems like the absorbed power is being used to power the jump drive, but which also seems like it may be saying that the jump fuel is being used to power the jump drive.

I always viewed this as "priming the pump" (like in those old pumps where you pour a bucket of water into the top of the pump to get it to draw water from the well). It would be similar to an automobile engine needing an alternator to charge the battery to start the engine, but the engine still needs gas.

Thus the power plant can charge the capacitors in the jump drive (or the Black globe can charge these capacitors) and the capacitors allow the jump drive to start the super-reaction that consumes enough fuel to run a power plant for ten months in a single jump.

 

[Whipsnade]

Just a suggestion, Bill, we're not told *where* the extra capacitors are installed. If they too are within, or adjacent to the Jump Drive, you could simply use the same percentages and destroy more capacitors per hit.

Icosahedron,

That's a great suggestion and one that would have somewhat assuaged our wounded wargaming sensibilities.

Still, I don't like the idea of capacitors acting as a huge battery of some sort.

Have fun,
Bill