Ship Internal Systems

[far-trader]

it would be, 'cept the black globe descriptions make it clear that the energy stored in the jump capacitors accumulates without discharge until used in powering ship systems. as for the two turns max requirement for jump, that might be just a jump thing.

But that's employing a negative try to prove something counter to my positive proof. Doesn't fly with me. Just because in the combat role it doesn't say how long (or how short) you can hold the charge doesn't mean it can be indefinite. Compare that to the clear rule that says just two turns to hold a charge. Yes it may be just a jump thing, but the point is both are talking about charging the jump capacitors. The same procedure to different ends. I don't think that means different abilities.

If, and only IF, you can cycle the charge between different elements within the capacitor banks, then you have a way of handling charges less than the total capacity without a loss for longer than two turns. For example if you have only half your capacitors charged up you could drain that charge at the end of two turns (or sooner) to the other half, thereby avoiding the leak/explosion. Repeat indefinitely. That's how you can build a jump capacitor battery imo. At least that way it cost twice as much and takes twice as much room, meaning it's only half as game breaking

 

[Spinward Scout]

yep, can always do something similar ourselves.

'fact, we could have a contest here on coti - who can come up with the best internal ship operation description. engineering, flight ops, computer & comms, internal security, life support, etc. winner lets mongoose publish it.

You know, we could always send it to Hunter to see if he wanted to publish it.



But I do like the idea of a contest. We don't do that enough anymore.

 

[flykiller]

But that's employing a negative try to prove something counter to my positive proof. Doesn't fly with me.

the statements in the black globe description are very clear about how power is accumulated in the jump capacitors, and how it may be released.

Compare that to the clear rule that says just two turns to hold a charge.

it doesn't say that.

ah, it's just a set of ad-hoc rules that weren't thought through. it's fun to see what you can do with them, and as a navy electrician I can say they leave all sorts of openings for creative engineering.

 

[flykiller]

But I do like the idea of a contest.

well sometime this week I'll sit down and explicate everything I assume and do in my games. start things off. likely I'll be ignored, but if people like it they can pitch in.

 

[far-trader]

True enough flykiller. I'm arguing too hard for too little with insufficient proof

But I am curious then how you interpret the two turn limit? What in game reason(s) for it can you offer? Might be some good stuff there too.

 

[far-trader]

well sometime this week I'll sit down and explicate everything I assume and do in my games. start things off. likely I'll be ignored, but if people like it they can pitch in.

Ignored? Naw. Engaged in "debate" :smirk: almost certainly, which may spark ideas.

I like the idea of a contest too, but don't have the time to participate, it's all I can do to try to save my PBP and post the odd thing.

Might I suggest a divide and conquer strategy? Split the contest (or whatever) into discreet systems with separate entries for each. If the contest (or whatever) idea takes off.

 

[Drakon]

what sort of quantities for water and O2 ?

It depends on humidity and contaminants in the ship's atmosphere. Usually not a lot.

If I remember right, water is pretty constant. It Just as much comes out a person as goes it. As long as you purify it, you can do a closed loop for water pretty easy. O2 is tougher, it does get depleted, and converted into CO2, which has to be dealt with.

Nitrogen ain't a problem as the body does not use it. All you need to do is add O2 and remove CO2 for the atmo. Scrubbers do not use a lot of power, its mostly pumps and fans.

How much you have to carry, is a good question, and I don't have average consumption rates handy. You will want some kind of emergency backup, like lithium hydroxide to clean out the CO2, and something like sodium hypoclorate. I do know that a large (#10) tin can of the stuff will supply 100 men enough O2 for 1 hour. Very compact form of transport.

Found a useage rate. 27 liters per man per hour at STP.

I am basing the above on my experience on US Navy nuclear submarines some 20 years ago.

 

[flykiller]

... how you interpret the two turn limit? What in game reason(s) for it can you offer?

well, good fundamentalist christian that I am, I would caution against "interpretation", which usually is just speculation and/or rationalization. but ....

jump drives are not rated at their true power plant requirement. maneuver drives are - maneuver drive 2 requires power plant 2 - but a (for example) jump drive 2 actually requires power plant 4. this is expensive in both money and engineering space however, so, to save this expense, standard engineering practice is to install two banks of capacitors, each with a power capacity of 2 and each capable of driving a jump 1. the power plant 2 is then used to charge up one capacitor bank to power level 2, and then the other capacitor bank to power level 2 (taking two turns). the capacitor banks are then placed in series and their charges added to achieve the required power level of 4 to initiate the jump 2.

of course if the ship is only doing a jump 1 then it only needs to power up one capacitor bank, thus the power plant 2 charges up the needed bank in one turn. and of course a power plant can't charge up a capacitor bank to a power level higher than that of the power plant rating. so, a power plant 1 cannot charge the capacitor banks above power level 1 each, so in series the capacitor banks cannot rise above power leve 2, thus they cannot initiate a jump 2, only a jump 1.

now, by the black globe description, the jump capacitor's capacity is obviously far above that needed for jump. this is because the jump capacitors, while able to hold these higher energy levels, are not rated to do this long-term, and will break down sooner or later. if a capacitor is able to hold 36ep before exploding, and it's holding 36ep, this doesn't mean that everything is fine, rather it means that the capacitor is under enormous stress and is at its engineering limit. this is not normal operation, and if a jump drive capacitor suffers such a condition it should be replaced at first opportunity. but in normal operation jump capacitors suffer no real wear-and-tear but may be safely operated without replacement for forty years.

how's that?

 

[fredofmars]

True enough flykiller. I'm arguing too hard for too little with insufficient proof. <snip>

Here is your proof:
Traveller's Digest 11, Traveller Q&A (on p38). The Traveller Q&A column was seen and approved by MWM as official Traveller canon.

Q: Can energy accumulated in the jump drive capacitors from a black globe generator in combat be used exclusively to power a jump, or must jump fuel be used in any case? -J.K.

A: As stated in both High Guard and the MegaTraveller Referee's Manual, a starship's jump drive capacitors can be used to divert or "bleed off" the energy absorbed by a black globe when the screen is hit in combat. The rules, however, are unclear on this point, largely because of the word "capacitor". Because the jump drive capacitors are being used, many have just assumed the energy could be used to charge the hull jump net, and thus send the ship into jump. Unfortunately, that does not work. The jump drive must still be used to charge the capacitors and power the jump.
The energy from the black globe is of a low grade, while the energy generated by the jump drive is of a much higher grade. The jump drive capacitors are able to absorb the black globe energy, but they canot use it to effectively power the jump net in the ship's hull. The low grade energy allowed to leave the ship after the black globe is off exits the ship via the jump drive hull net as ordinary heat energy. It is useless for propelling the ship into jumpspace. (Incidentally, note why the black globe generator has to be off to allow the heat energy to leave. Were the energy allowed to leave while the globe was on, the heat build-up inside the black globe sphere would melt the ship's hull.)
The statement in the rules that says "If the ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump" is misleading. The jump drive must still be used as normal to enter jumpspace. Whether or not a ship has a black globe really has nothing to do with going into jump. - Marc W. Miller

 

[flykiller]

"Because the jump drive capacitors are being used, many have just assumed the energy could be used to charge the hull jump net, and thus send the ship into jump. Unfortunately, that does not work."

book 5, page 43: "If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and it is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn."

"The energy from the black globe is of a low grade, while the energy generated by the jump drive is of a much higher grade."

?

... official Traveller canon.

I use canon whenever I can on my games, but sometimes I just can non.

 

[fredofmars]

book 5, page 43: "If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and it is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn."

I use canon whenever I can on my games, but sometimes I just can non.

As MWM says in his answer, the p43 quotation is misleading. It really means that if a ship could jump without having used the black globe in combat, it can still jump -using the normal jump rules- even if it has black globe derived energy in the capacitors.

By "low grade" he apparently means ordinary heat energy. What he means by "high grade" is not as well defined, but perhaps it is electrical, or gravitational, or something jump space related.

It is clear you can do what you like in YTU, but if you are going for "canon" then MWM's statement is relevant. As I said in a previous comment, the "jump capacitor" powered ship is one of the interesting heresies people have played with in the past. If you came up with some rules for it, I think a number of people would like to see them.

 

[flykiller]

As MWM says in his answer, the p43 quotation is misleading.

"Because the jump drive capacitors are being used, many have just assumed the energy could be used to charge the hull jump net, and thus send the ship into jump. Unfortunately, that does not work."

book 5, page 43: "If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and it is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn."

By "low grade" he apparently means ordinary heat energy.

capacitors don't store heat energy.

What he means by "high grade" is not as well defined

"as well"?

... if you are going for "canon" then MWM's statement is relevant.

but not coherent.

As I said in a previous comment, the "jump capacitor" powered ship is one of the interesting heresies people have played with in the past. If you came up with some rules for it, I think a number of people would like to see them.

book 5, pages 42-43.

 

[fredofmars]

book 5, page 43: "If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and it is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn."

capacitors don't store heat energy.

MWM wrote Book 5, so he should know what he meant - right? It might not be as clear to the rest of us, but that's why he wrote the clarification.

It seems clear to me that jump drive "capacitors" are NOT capacitors in the way we usually think of them currently. They are NOT simply electrical capacitors we would find in an electrical circuit of today. :nonono: They are something different, that happens to be able to be repurposed to some limited degree when connected to a black globe generator.

 

[Gadrin]

It depends on humidity and contaminants in the ship's atmosphere. Usually not a lot.

If I remember right, water is pretty constant. It Just as much comes out a person as goes it. As long as you purify it, you can do a closed loop for water pretty easy. O2 is tougher, it does get depleted, and converted into CO2, which has to be dealt with.

Nitrogen ain't a problem as the body does not use it. All you need to do is add O2 and remove CO2 for the atmo. Scrubbers do not use a lot of power, its mostly pumps and fans.

How much you have to carry, is a good question, and I don't have average consumption rates handy. You will want some kind of emergency backup, like lithium hydroxide to clean out the CO2, and something like sodium hypoclorate. I do know that a large (#10) tin can of the stuff will supply 100 men enough O2 for 1 hour. Very compact form of transport.

Found a useage rate. 27 liters per man per hour at STP.

I am basing the above on my experience on US Navy nuclear submarines some 20 years ago.

ah! thanks! I almost forgot all about this...

bringing aboard bottled water that supplements the closed system would probably be good in the environs of a small ship in jump.

so how often do modern submariners shower ? I'm thinking in terms of craft in the 100-400 ton Traveller range. Is water management pretty much a finite science for the Navy ? (meaning they've got it pegged).

 

[Gadrin]

It seems clear to me that jump drive "capacitors" are NOT capacitors in the way we usually think of them currently. They are NOT simply electrical capacitors we would find in an electrical circuit of today. :nonono: They are something different, that happens to be able to be repurposed to some limited degree when connected to a black globe generator.

that' was the feeling I got from the LBBs as almost everywhere the word capacitor showed up, the phrase "black globe" was there too.

I just assume there's the every-day capacitor for regular use and those the IN and other high-tech outfits use for black globe work.

 

[flykiller]

It seems clear to me that jump drive "capacitors" are NOT capacitors in the way we usually think of them currently. They are NOT simply electrical capacitors we would find in an electrical circuit of today.

(smile) well that definitely is one way to rectify the discrepancy - negate the original meaning of the words, while remaining vague about any new definition.

MWM wrote Book 5, so he should know what he meant - right? It might not be as clear to the rest of us, but that's why he wrote the clarification.

references to "high grade energy" and "low grade energy" are not clarifying. marc may know what he's talking about, but I'm afraid the rest of us are clueless.

anyway, book 5, the way it was written and with all its loopholes, seems fertile ground for excellence in engineering.

 

[PFVA63]

I suspect that ...

Hi,

On modern naval vessels I belive that electrical power gets categorized into different groups depending on how clean the signal is. I believe that some of the sensitive electronics on ships have tight tolerances on how clean the electrical signal must be in order for the equipment to work properly and electrical power that meets this tight requirements is called Type I power, and is described in a document called Mil-Std-1300 Section 300 (I think). However I believe that other systems aren't as sensitive to voltage drops and surges and stuff (if I am understanding correctly) and they can be supplied with a electricity of a less clean signal, which are called Type II and Type III power.

I suspect (though I am just guessing) that the original Traveller authors may have had something similar in mind and that the "power" stored in the black globe capacitors is considered too messy of a signal for the sensitive circuits of the jump drive (or something like that).

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Regards

PF

 

[flykiller]

On modern naval vessels I belive that electrical power gets categorized into different groups depending on how clean the signal is. I believe that some of the sensitive electronics on ships have tight tolerances on how clean the electrical signal must be in order for the equipment to work properly and electrical power that meets this tight requirements is called Type I power

correct. however the tolerance applies to the frequency and voltage, not to the power itself. special generator/converters are designed to produce exactly 400hz (and something-or-other volts) no matter what the ship's normal power supply is doing, because this affects the accuracy of the ship's radar and navigation systems.

capacitors, however, have nothing to do with frequency.

 

[Icosahedron]

Oops. And there I thought I was making a helpful suggestion about batteries and capacitors. Maybe I should have kept my big mouth shut!

 

[Drakon]

bringing aboard bottled water that supplements the closed system would probably be good in the environs of a small ship in jump.

so how often do modern submariners shower ? I'm thinking in terms of craft in the 100-400 ton Traveller range. Is water management pretty much a finite science for the Navy ? (meaning they've got it pegged).

In my day, you could shower every day if you wanted. They did want you to keep it short and conserve water, but the only time it was a big deal was when the evaporators broke down. Which was pretty rare.

The Navy never closed the water circuit, because submarines are surrounded by water. It is too easy, and less expensive to simply get more water than to try to keep it all internal, and that eliminated the need to recycle waste water. Just pump the old stuff overboard (once far enough from land.)

Having a supply of bottled water is not a bad idea. Extra O2 is a good idea as well.

For starships, you will need to close the loop, especially for those 5 year missions. One idea I have been toying with is carry the fuel for the fusion plant as water. Its not flammable like pure hydrogen is, ready source of both water and O2, if it is needed, and readily available according to latest astronomical studies. If your ship is sticking to landings on Earth class planets, which will have water, you should always be good to go.

The only problem with the idea, is that I think water has less hydrogen for fusion than pure hydrogen gas under pressure. I don't have the figures handy, will have to look it up.