Maybe I should drop the whole thing - it was only a suggestion, after all.
Suggestions are good, that's the point of this thread!
OK, change of pace, how about this one?
C372510-A, Amber Zone
-Fox
Seasoning UWP's to taste...
- Thread starter Foxroe
- Start date
Suggestions are good, that's the point of this thread!
OK, change of pace, how about this one?
C372510-A, Amber Zone
-Fox
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Well, CT definitions (from supplement 3 The Spinward Marches):
Class A: Excellent Quality Installation. Refined fuel is available, as is annual maintenance overhaul. A shipyard capable of both starship and non-starship construction is present. A Traveller's Aid Society hostel is present at all locations within the Imperium, and many locations outside the Imperium.
Class B: Good Quality Installation. Refined fuel is available, as is annual maintenance overhaul. A shipyard capable of building non-starships is present. A Traveller's Aid Society hostel is present at all locations within the Imperium, and at some locations outside the Imperium.
Class C: Routine Quality Installation. Only unrefined fuel is available. Reasonable repair facilities are present.
Class D: Poor Quality Installation. Only unrefined fuel is available. No repair or shipyard facilities are present.
Class E: Frontier Quality Installation. Essentially, a bare spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present.
Class X: No starport. No provision is made for any starship landings.
Book 6 Scouts added secondary spaceports (like starports, but only the prime port of system is listed as such):
Class F: Good quality (essentially a class B/C)
Class G: Poor quality (class D)
Class H: Primitive facilities (class E)
Class Y: No spaceport (class X)
I would say that a Class C port can construct small craft... fighters, ship's launches, pinnaces, etc.
Class A: Excellent Quality Installation. Refined fuel is available, as is annual maintenance overhaul. A shipyard capable of both starship and non-starship construction is present. A Traveller's Aid Society hostel is present at all locations within the Imperium, and many locations outside the Imperium.
Class B: Good Quality Installation. Refined fuel is available, as is annual maintenance overhaul. A shipyard capable of building non-starships is present. A Traveller's Aid Society hostel is present at all locations within the Imperium, and at some locations outside the Imperium.
Class C: Routine Quality Installation. Only unrefined fuel is available. Reasonable repair facilities are present.
Class D: Poor Quality Installation. Only unrefined fuel is available. No repair or shipyard facilities are present.
Class E: Frontier Quality Installation. Essentially, a bare spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present.
Class X: No starport. No provision is made for any starship landings.
Book 6 Scouts added secondary spaceports (like starports, but only the prime port of system is listed as such):
Class F: Good quality (essentially a class B/C)
Class G: Poor quality (class D)
Class H: Primitive facilities (class E)
Class Y: No spaceport (class X)
I would say that a Class C port can construct small craft... fighters, ship's launches, pinnaces, etc.
I had an idea last night.
I've earlier pointed out that there seems to be a starport class missing between C and B. The differences between the two are big. Class C has no refined fuel, limited repair facilities, no annual maintenance. Starport B has refined fuel, annual maintenance and a boatyard.
What about a starport with refined fuel and annual maintenance available, but no boatyard? It's not Class C, because C doesn't have refined fuel. It's not Class B, because Class B has a boatyard.
Meanwhile, the only difference between A and B is that the shipyards of one can build starships and that of the other can only make spaceboats.
So how about changing the definition of Class B to: Refined fuel and annual maintenance available, but no shipyards and Class A to shipyards OR boatyards as the case may be. Oh, and Class C isn't 'Only unrefined fuel', it's 'unrefined fuel and/or limited repairs'. So you can have a class C with refined fuel, but if it can't do annual maintenance, it still isn't Class B.
You 'save' all those worlds with Class B starports and no local demand for spaceboats (I mean, Prilissa has half a million people on a T-prime world with more than double the land surface of Earth. How many of them live in space? Where are the customers for the spaceboats they build? The TL 6 spaceboats they build...). And you also save a few worlds with Class A starports and populations too small to build starships but large enough to build spaceboats (Not many of those, I know, but there are a few).
Hans
Absolutely, Hans. And I would say it was up to the referee when the system is being fleshed out. The ref could simply state that there is a Class C port present, but they can also produce refined fuel at 150% the cost, or there is a Class B port present, but the shipyard has been closed down for years due to competition in a nearby system... or something like that.
-Fox
-Fox
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Suggestions are good, that's the point of this thread!
OK, change of pace, how about this one?
C372510-A, Amber Zone
-Fox
Obviously this world has been the victim of a disaster that has wiped out its population. There are still some volcanic gases/radiation/biowarfare agents in the atmosphere and these create a significant hazard to visitors. There is currently a technological research group present on a salvage mission, and whilst the port is still operational as a landing site and has full stores, you would have to provide your own engineers for any maintenance tasks you needed to carry out.
I hope this one won't get me into trouble.
Obviously this world has been the victim of a disaster that has wiped out its population. There are still some volcanic gases/radiation/biowarfare agents in the atmosphere and these create a significant hazard to visitors. There is currently a technological research group present on a salvage mission, and whilst the port is still operational as a landing site and has full stores, you would have to provide your own engineers for any maintenance tasks you needed to carry out.
I hope this one won't get me into trouble.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Some natural cataclysmic event has fouled the atmosphere and killed off a good chunk of the locals. Even though the IN has moved in to establish recovery efforts, much of the effort is being charitably funded and overseen by an invested megacorporation... or so it would seem. Perhaps the megacorp is somehow responsible for the disaster and seeks to cover up its involvement in the event. I smell adventure hook! Or maybe that's just the code-7 atmosphere... :devil:
-Fox
Or how about this one…
This small, actively volcanic world’s population is clustered around a rough-and-tumble downport startown, which is loosely run by a cadre of local merchant princes. Each of the seven Merchant Princes rules a separate house, the houses not actually being familial or noble establishments, but rather a collection of local guilds and businessmen who pay for “protection”. The town offers all forms of exotic entertainment as well as a wide variety of imported and locally produced high-tech goods at reasonable prices. However, this lawless and exotic locale makes it an ideal haven for pirates and other lawless activities.
The world's tainted atmosphere has the unusual characteristic of fouling up orbital sensor readings. The IN has attempted several times to stamp out the local pirate infestation, but it would appear that their bases are many and small, and well hidden by the sensor-scrambling properties of the atmosphere. For now, IN ships frequently patrol the system and will board suspicious looking inbound and outbound vessels. The system has been given an Amber Zone classification due to the high likelihood of an encounter with pirates.
While the local starport has been given a C-classification by the IISS, given the resilient nature of the local pirates, the IN believes that there may be better facilities available to them hidden somewhere on the world’s surface. Infiltration into the local criminal/pirate network by Imperial spies has so far been unsuccessful, and while the Merchant Princes enthusiastically cooperate with the Imperials, they are likely in economic league with the pirates.
-Fox
Last edited:
Plankowner
SOC-13
How about this version:
C372510-A, Amber Zone
This world is wholey owned by the Sternmetals-Horizon Megacorporation. The facility is used for undisclosed corporate purposes.
Visitors are restricted to VERY specific flight paths and are not allowed to leave the Starport Jurisdiction. Facilities for non-company employees are basically non-existent, with incredible amounts of red tape to get even basic maintenance support and fees are double the normal rates. Refined fuel is freely available to any S-H employee, but is not available (at any price) to non company ships. The local police are actively hostile against outsiders and several incidents that involved the death of visitors has led the TAS to declare this world an Amber Zone.
The research being done by the Megacorp is left to the GM.
C372510-A, Amber Zone
This world is wholey owned by the Sternmetals-Horizon Megacorporation. The facility is used for undisclosed corporate purposes.
Visitors are restricted to VERY specific flight paths and are not allowed to leave the Starport Jurisdiction. Facilities for non-company employees are basically non-existent, with incredible amounts of red tape to get even basic maintenance support and fees are double the normal rates. Refined fuel is freely available to any S-H employee, but is not available (at any price) to non company ships. The local police are actively hostile against outsiders and several incidents that involved the death of visitors has led the TAS to declare this world an Amber Zone.
The research being done by the Megacorp is left to the GM.
That interesting Amber Zone description doesn't quite gibe with my idea of a GL1, LL0 world; it sounds more like a Military or Naval Base equivalent to me -- approximately GL9, LL12+ or so...
a dense world certainly, but maybe the atmosphere if from constant outgassing and is constantly bleeding away into space. Volcanic world with constant eruptions ( at least one going on somewhere ), perhaps cooler than one might expect do to a natural form of 'nuclear winter' . Pop is a mining outpost taking advantage of eruptions for obtaining heavier elements and metals. Amber zone is because landing is hazardous and the ash and cinders causing a dire danger. Very Volatile climate...rapid rotation and denser atmosphere can make strom condition and 'black outs' as ash flies thick. Filter masks are looked down upon with those using them being seen as 'green'. Experienced folk use full breathing gear to avoid being caught in lo lying areas that might be filled with CO2 or other non-breathable mixes.
Class 'A' starport is what the IISS listed it as for nav charts. An eruption damaged the facilities and it now would be classified as a 'C' at best...the IISS have not updated their records at this time...Standard procedure for ISS is to NOT update records without IISS personnel checking on the changes itself. A team is schduled to re-survey for the starport type within the year. It is common knowledge among the frieghter crews that haul metals and other materials out-system.
Governement leadership below the "Boss" is determined by experience..usually, smart and resourceful miners become old whereas the foolish die. "Branches" of government are split between miners and foundry workers who process the ores/metallics for shipment. The "Boss" is top administrator and heads purchasing and shipping; trade functions. All contracts go through him. He determines output quotas. Being given a pink slip means eventual death unless friends care for the fired man, or he has funds to buy his way offworld. All goods are purchased from the company store with comapny script. Pay and expenses make it difficult to get off world once someone lives here.
Rough and tumble hardships make law a matter of filing grievances and bring matters to foremen and the matter will be looked into with the things settled to the Company's satisfaction. Thats the official justice. Real justice occurs via 'accidents' on the job...hey..work is dangerous and accidents happen, right?
Class 'A' starport is what the IISS listed it as for nav charts. An eruption damaged the facilities and it now would be classified as a 'C' at best...the IISS have not updated their records at this time...Standard procedure for ISS is to NOT update records without IISS personnel checking on the changes itself. A team is schduled to re-survey for the starport type within the year. It is common knowledge among the frieghter crews that haul metals and other materials out-system.
Governement leadership below the "Boss" is determined by experience..usually, smart and resourceful miners become old whereas the foolish die. "Branches" of government are split between miners and foundry workers who process the ores/metallics for shipment. The "Boss" is top administrator and heads purchasing and shipping; trade functions. All contracts go through him. He determines output quotas. Being given a pink slip means eventual death unless friends care for the fired man, or he has funds to buy his way offworld. All goods are purchased from the company store with comapny script. Pay and expenses make it difficult to get off world once someone lives here.
Rough and tumble hardships make law a matter of filing grievances and bring matters to foremen and the matter will be looked into with the things settled to the Company's satisfaction. Thats the official justice. Real justice occurs via 'accidents' on the job...hey..work is dangerous and accidents happen, right?
While I'm not pariticularly against this philosophy (it certainly makes explaining the numbers a little easier
), I'm not so sure. According to Imperial Fringe, the IISS determines population codes from orbital scans. So unless the scout makes it a habit of subtracting the starport population from the total population, the scan would include everyone. But this brings up another possibility. Since the UWP survey is only conducted once in every 20 years (Imperial Fringe), who's to say that the population doesn't change dramatically after the survey is taken (i.e. natural disaster, exodus of refugees, disease, etc.)?
-Fox
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
The twenty years between surveys doesn't explain why the pop and port levels are incompatible on the same survey.
I'm also not sure that a pop 1 and port A could be 'normal' either, even if the pop 1 is external to the port itself, these 10 to 100 people are going to be the ones producing all the food etc for the port staff - unless everything is imported - in which case the situation is hardly normal anyway and still needs explaining away.
I'm also not sure that a pop 1 and port A could be 'normal' either, even if the pop 1 is external to the port itself, these 10 to 100 people are going to be the ones producing all the food etc for the port staff - unless everything is imported - in which case the situation is hardly normal anyway and still needs explaining away.
Plankowner
SOC-13
But you see, your assumption is that the players get to use the local law level... LOCALS can carry just about anything they want, you don't get to leave the starport though.
Renaissance Man
SOC-12
If we're going to take the UWPs as is, we might as well take the pop figures as is, and say it's the total pop.
There are other possibilities besides high population for a class A port.
It would make sense that the Imperium would have a market for fully automated, modular starport facilities that can be freighted in, assembled and made operational in a reasonable time. This includes shipyards. A low population might be needed to maintain the port - but not much else. Meanwhile, the owner has established a lucrative business, if nothing else. And governments certainly have strategic reasons for needing to set up automated ports on the fly.
The limit is not cost and labour, which can be mitigated and replaced with robots. The limits are 1) access to sustainable resources. 2) A suitable defence infrastructure to maintain control of the starport from looters and rivals.
That's why in most cases, a class A pre-supposes a government, local economy and significant population. Most, but not all cases.
There are other possibilities besides high population for a class A port.
It would make sense that the Imperium would have a market for fully automated, modular starport facilities that can be freighted in, assembled and made operational in a reasonable time. This includes shipyards. A low population might be needed to maintain the port - but not much else. Meanwhile, the owner has established a lucrative business, if nothing else. And governments certainly have strategic reasons for needing to set up automated ports on the fly.
The limit is not cost and labour, which can be mitigated and replaced with robots. The limits are 1) access to sustainable resources. 2) A suitable defence infrastructure to maintain control of the starport from looters and rivals.
That's why in most cases, a class A pre-supposes a government, local economy and significant population. Most, but not all cases.
I think when it comes to fleshing out a UWP you need to take into consideration any neighbouring worlds.
With regard to earlier posts on shipyards and their capabilities, I think that a low pop world within maybe J-2 of an industrial world or on a busy trade route could possibly import parts in for construction as required. But a world isolated from any sort of support is going to be hard pressed, or have vastly inflated prices.
Talking of starports, I think the designation should be for the minimum requirements for each classification. So a port capable of providing refined fuel, carrying out repairs and annual maintenance but that has no construction capability is only a class C port.
With regard to earlier posts on shipyards and their capabilities, I think that a low pop world within maybe J-2 of an industrial world or on a busy trade route could possibly import parts in for construction as required. But a world isolated from any sort of support is going to be hard pressed, or have vastly inflated prices.
Talking of starports, I think the designation should be for the minimum requirements for each classification. So a port capable of providing refined fuel, carrying out repairs and annual maintenance but that has no construction capability is only a class C port.
Hans,
There's still a lot of wiggle room in that statement.
We all agree on the role of comparative advantage in Traveller's trade system. Certain systems can make/grow/build/etc. certain things better/cheaper/faster than other systems, so trade is engendered.
Now take that idea a step further: Why shouldn't there also be a comparative advantage in Class A starports?
You brought up one reason for this occurring when you wrote this:
Some Class A and B shipyards are going to specialize in that sort of work and some others are not even going to be able to touch it. Let's take the Glisten subsector for our example.
We've got Class A ports at Glisten, Grote, Ffudn, Bendor, and Weiss. Only Glisten and Ffudn have anywhere near a large shipyard capacity; ~1 million dTons for Glisten using the TCS metrics, the others are much smaller facilities. So where are Tukera, the IISS, the IN, and all the other BIG players going to build and overhaul their BIG ships? Glisten and Ffudn of course. That leaves Grote, Weiss, and Bendor to handle all the medium to small work.
Glisten isn't going to overhaul your Beowulf in any rapid fashion. With 1 million dTons available for both repairs and construction, setting aside 200dTons for the pittance your overhaul fee amounts to is a waste of capacity. Daewoo and Newport News do not build and/or fix cabin cruisers, it's a waste of time and resources for them. Handling Beowulfs will be a waste of time and resouorces for Glisten and Ffudn too.
So, the construction and repair market is segmented just as the trade market is segmented, and that segmentation is a function of size. Despite that Class A rating, Grote isn't going to handle a LSP freighter because the job is too big and LSP is too canny to schedule the job on Grote. Converserly, Glisten isn't even going to look at the overhaul of you Beowulf. Among dozens of other big jobs, she's building a Tigress and overhauling a Plankwell, so it isn't even worth her time to look at anything smaller than a Leviathan.
Everyone's MM and should V.
Have fun,
Bill
Except that assumes all the capacity of a class A starport rests in the hands of one operator, which is also an unrealistic assumption. The aggregate capacity of a starport likely includes a set of large and small operators who, as you note, will only take on the work which they can efficiently handle.
Happy Travelling!
Happy Travelling!
Dean,
Yes, it is an unrealistic assumption in certain cases. Glisten most certainly has multiple yards. The Bilstein Yards are mentioned repeatedly in canon and are said to specialize in certain kinds of construction; i.e. yachts, Leviathans, and floating palaces for theocrats among other things.
However, while Glisten has multiple yards (which may or may not be all lumped under TCS' pseudo-canonical capacity metric), it would be safe to say that Weiss, Bendor, and Grote do not. We're already straining plausibility to make a single Class A yard in those three systems "work", so presuming/suggesting that there are multiple starship building yards in those systems stretches things a wee bit too far IMHO.
In the Real World, there isn't just one shipyard in Korea or the United States. Multiple shipyards exist and, while they may not all compete for precisely the same market, their capabilties do somewhat overlap. However, only one shipyard in Korea builds VLCCs and only one shipyard in the US builds CVNs. While VLCCs and CVNs may not be precise Real World stand-ins for the OTU's starships, there should be some commonalities in their construction that we can explore.
I'd say the aggregate capacity of the yards in any given region includes a set of large and small operators and that the chance for multiple operators within a single system is a function of population.
Have fun,
Bill
