Seasoning UWP's to taste...

[rancke]

Does being able to build an entire ship necessarily equate also being able to manufacture each and every component and subassembly that make up said ship?

The Real World answer to that question is a definite no.

I can safely say that because I can also safely say that I am most likely the [only former shipyard employee here (Shop 275, Nuclear Test Office, Electric Boat, Groton, CT, USA) and the only member who regularly visited shipyards worldwide while employed by companies other than EB.

As you will see from another post, I agree with you. You can have a shipyard with fairly few people running it (though I'd say you need to get up into at least the hundreds) if they're just assembling subcomponents. But then you have to explain why someone goes to the extra expense of manufacturing the subcomponents in one system and transporting it (and the workers ) to another system instead of assembling them in the same system where they're manufactured.

Saying, "Oh, they're just assembling the components", isn't an explanation. It just changes the bit you have to explain.

... I don't like the idea of Tenalphi having a Class A shipyard either!

A while back Marc Miller (through Robject) asked for inconsistent UWPs. I mentioned Tenalphi and he said he would increase the population level to 7.

I can however see other small worlds building jump capable ships for either their own use or for sale to others. All you really need to do is own the skills, the parts can be imported. Of course, whether importing parts is economically feasible in the long term is another question.

It's a crucial question. I'm not rejecting the notion, I'm just saying that it's limited in usefulness.

I can easily see a high-pop, high-tech world subsidizing Class A & B ports in the smaller systems around it in order to create greater merchant traffic and provide construction and repair capacity for clients and ships it doesn't want "clogging" up it's own yards. Subsidizing free trader construction and repair elsewhere means your yards will be able to focus on more lucrative contracts while still "supporting" a proven revenue stream.

Maybe so, but OTOH I just can't see a world like Grote being capable of finishing three 600T ships at roughly the same time with the canonical population . Can you?

But if a high-pop, high-tech world did farm out some of its ship construction, it would be a real boon to the world that got the subsidiary yard. After all, the big world would either have to provide military guard of their world or risk pirates running off with one of those highly-movable just-finished chunks of concentrated wealth, right?


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

In other words, if there is a shipyard there, but for some reason they won't build for strangers (e.g. it's a military shipyard), it's not a Class A starport.

Hans,

How about they can't begin building immediately? Or they need "earnest money" as well as the usual initial mortgage payments? Or that they require personal references as well as money? Or they won't do custom jobs, i.e. LBB2 standard designs only? Or they'll only do custom jobs? Or they'll only build ships above a certain size? Or below a certain size? Or they've religious/governmental/social/whatever problems with adding weapons?

Your Class A litmus test can easily be bent silly; which makes it a superb tool for GMs by the way!

Among the several shipyards on Narragansett Bay, one only makes hull sections while the another turns out complete ocean-capable vessels. The one "only" building hull sections is building parts for the most advanced nuclear submarines on the planet, the one building complete vessels is constructing one-off, wholly customized, moter/sailer, yachts for the filthy rich, neither could build what the other does, and neither could build me a working off-shore fishing trawler.

Sure, the Class A label has to mean something lest a game just degenerate into an futile exercise in GM fiat. However, a label shouldn't be a pair of handcuffs either. As it turns out, the LBB3 description has quite a bit of wiggle room in it.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[robject]

Sure, the Class A label has to mean something lest a game just degenerate into an futile exercise in GM fiat. However, a label shouldn't be a pair of handcuffs either. As it turns out, the LBB3 description has quite a bit of wiggle room in it.

Yes sir. I find myself on a slippery slope. Like juggling different masses in variable gravity. Yet, somehow, an A is an A, and a B is a B, and it has to be that way.

 

[Whipsnade]

Saying, "Oh, they're just assembling the components", isn't an explanation. It just changes the bit you have to explain.

Hans,

Very true. Sometimes changing the question makes coming up with answers easier.

Maybe so, but OTOH I just can't see a world like Grote being capable of finishing three 600T ships at roughly the same time with the canonical population . Can you?

Not in the slightest. That is why, IMTU, Grote's population is counted by the IISS in a certain way and that method is part of the treaty under which Grote was admitted. (Just how and why this occurred is another kettle of fish entirely!)

But if a high-pop, high-tech world did farm out some of its ship construction, it would be a real boon to the world that got the subsidiary yard. After all, the big world would either have to provide military guard of their world or risk pirates running off with one of those highly-movable just-finished chunks of concentrated wealth, right?

Just screams Adventure Seed!!!, doesn't it? The subsidizing world would have to take great care that their subsidies actually are used for what they're supposed to be used for and that the work being performed is actually what is supposed to be happening.

Let's say a jump fuel regulator for a Beowulf-class free trader has a built in mark-up of 10% (believe me, that's really low). For the sake of argument, let's say a regulator costs 90Cr to build and everyone sells them for 100Cr. The subsidizing world in this case builds that component and ships it to the subsidized yard for cost; the subsidized yard pays only 90Cr on delivery. The subsidized yard can then sell the regulator for 100Cr, sell it for more than 100Cr ("Hey, it's the only one on stock!"), sell it and install it ("Labor is another hundred, Cap'n."), or make money off that regulator in dozens of different ways.

Of course, just how and what the subsidized yard can and cannot do is probably covered in the subsidy agreement, but we all know that agreements are made to broken.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[rancke]

How about they can't begin building immediately? Or they need "earnest money" as well as the usual initial mortgage payments? Or that they require personal references as well as money? Or they won't do custom jobs, i.e. LBB2 standard designs only? Or they'll only do custom jobs? Or they'll only build ships above a certain size? Or below a certain size? Or they've religious/governmental/social/whatever problems with adding weapons?

Just figure out how the Scouts would regard each of those problems in terms of whether or not the shipyard is open for civilian business and you'll get your answer.

Off the top of my head: Temporary inability to build more ships: Let's wait a bit and see if things improve. Prolonged inability to accept new business: Temporary reclassification (I've actually used that to explain why Rethe has a class D starport). Financial oddities: If they do business with civilians, they're doing business with civilians. The details doesn't matter. Restrictions on what they'll do: If they're doing business with civilians, they're doing business with civilians.

Oh, and they also have to be able to provide annual maintenance in a timely fashion. After all, the rules say you can get annual overhauls at any Class A and B starport. Clearly, if you can't get an annual overhaul, it's not a class A or B starport. (I think maybe there are a couple of classes missing between Class C and Class B)


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Off the top of my head: Temporary inability to build more ships: Let's wait a bit and see if things improve.

Hans,

Agreed. Still a Class A.

Prolonged inability to accept new business: Temporary reclassification

Agreed. A down grade that may temporary or not. Plenty of canonical examples for that.

Financial oddities: If they do business with civilians, they're doing business with civilians.

Now the funs begins! Consider the following:

Player: "Whatta you mean they won't build a Broadsword?!!? It's a Class A port, ain't it? We've got the cash/mortgage/coupon, don't we?"

GM: "They can't start building until next year." or "They can't import what they need due to X." or "They won't build paramilitary ships." or "They don't build anything that small because it isn't worth their time." or dozens of other things. Is the port still a Class A?

Restrictions on what they'll do: If they're doing business with civilians, they're doing business with civilians.

There's business and then there's business. Daewoo does business with civilian ship buyers but they aren't going to build me a motor-sailer and Herreshoff in Bristol, RI isn't going to even contemplate laying down a VLCC. Different yards, different businesses, and all building ocean-capable ships.

Oh, and they also have to be able to provide annual maintenance in a timely fashion. After all, the rules say you can get annual overhauls at any Class A and B starport. Clearly, if you can't get an annual overhaul, it's not a class A or B starport.

Agreed, but "timely" has wiggle room in it too. After all, we're not talking about a 15 minute oil change here. A GM could realistically throw parts issues, capacity issues, labor issues, and other headaches to extend the canonical two week period. It needn't always be a cookie-cutter two weeks each and every time.

(Can't players do their own annual maintenance too? ISTR some rule about buying so much in parts/supplies and spending X amount of extra time to do it yourself wherever you want/need to do it.)


Have fun,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Now the funs begins! Consider the following:

Player: "Whatta you mean they won't build a Broadsword?!!? It's a Class A port, ain't it? We've got the cash/mortgage/coupon, don't we?"

GM: "They can't start building until next year." or "They can't import what they need due to X." or "They won't build paramilitary ships." or "They don't build anything that small because it isn't worth their time." or dozens of other things. Is the port still a Class A?

Is the yard currently doing business with some civilians? Can you get started on an annual maintenance in less than a week? Then it's a Class A starport.

Agreed, but "timely" has wiggle room in it too. After all, we're not talking about a 15 minute oil change here. A GM could realistically throw parts issues, capacity issues, labor issues, and other headaches to extend the canonical two week period. It needn't always be a cookie-cutter two weeks each and every time.

Considering how much money a ship is pissing away every day it is not jumping, I'd think any company would schedule its maintenances months or even years ahead, with penalty clauses for shipyards that are not ready to begin the moment the ship shows up (and bonuses for doing it in less than 14 days). As long as that works, I think the class A status is safe. What happens to free traders is unlikely to change the Scouts' mind one way or the other.

You know, maybe annual maintenance actually only take four or five business days for regular companies and the two weeks is average for what tramps have to put up with...

(Yes, yes, I know TCS says annual maintenance also takes two weeks for military ships. Oh, well...)

(Can't players do their own annual maintenance too? ISTR some rule about buying so much in parts/supplies and spending X amount of extra time to do it yourself wherever you want/need to do it.)

There's a rule somewhere to that effect, yes. I'd require them to get their maintenance certified by a TAS official in any campaign of mine, though :devil:.


Hans

 

[Foxroe]

Great discussion thus far!

I got to thinking about Tenalphi and starports, so I jotted this down (haven't bothered looking for any canon references):

Tenalphi/Lunion A774102-E

There is very little that is remarkable about this cold and inhospitable world along the X-boat network in Lunion Subsector -- other than the unusual presence of a starport.

Tenalphi Station is a small Class-A starport located along the shores of Tenalphi's largest ocean. Both refined and unrefined fuel are available, drawn from the surrounding water. While there is no major shipyard at Tenalphi Station, there are facilities adequate enough to build a few small starships at any given time. The building facility can only support ships up to 1000 tons, and the builder must supply their own workforce.

The station is run by an entrepreneurial middle aged ex-Scout named Alexi Sterinovia, and a few dozen trusted employee's. Alexi spends most of her time designing and building robots. Her unnatural obsession with robotics is considered eccentric at best, but her employees don't mind as they are well paid. As a result, the port is highly automated and there are literally hundreds of robots of all forms and function everywhere throughout the complex.

The port has the capacity to support thousands of visitors, although there is not normally more than 100 people passing through at any given time. There is a small TAS office present. While there is no local law enforcement, Alexi is very clear about the rules: live and let live, and no personal energy weapons (rumor is she suffered a terrible FG wound during a past mission).

It is unknown how Alexi manages to fund the day-to-day operations of the station (outside of charging for use of the "shipyard"), or where she gets the money to support her robotics hobby. For certain she is well compensated by the IISS, who reserve the right to land and refuel at the starport at any time, and she has never had a problem with pirates...

A little rough around the edges, but I think it's feasible (YTUMV).

-Fox

 

[robject]

Starport was deliberately generated separately from population. The implication is that a class A starport can potentially be on a world with population digit zero.

Foxroe's description made me suddenly think that perhaps ship parts aren't shipped weekly from world to world. Keeping a Class A stocked is risky, unless you're on the XBoat route perhaps.

 

[Icosahedron]

Actually, I was too lax in my definition. Not only do they have to be able to build a ship, you have to be able to go there and get them to build a ship for you. In other words, if there is a shipyard there, but for some reason they won't build for strangers (e.g. it's a military shipyard), it's not a Class A starport.


Hans

I would disagree with that. A Military Class A shipyard is still a Class A shipyard - it is capable of building starships, it can perform annual maintenance and it has refined fuel available. That is the Class A definition. Whether or not it allows civilians is irrelevant IMO.

IMTU, I've changed the definitions - you don't get a Class A rating without a highport, but MTU is an ATU and radical in many ways.

Another option for the original UWP perhaps:
A prison planet workyard. There are two habitable worlds in system - one is used as a prison planet and houses most of the population, the other is a workyard for prisoners to build ships. As this world contains the starport it is classified as the 'mainworld' even though its companion has a much higher population.

(P37 LBB6 Scouts: "The main world is the world in the system which has the greatest population" And, further down: "The main world has the system's starport." Take your pick!)

 

[far-trader]

...

P37 LBB6 Scouts: "The main world is the world in the system which has the greatest population" And, further down: "The main world has the system's starport." Take your pick!

:file_19:

What do you mean: "Take your pick!"

It's not a choice, the Mainworld of the system is BOTH the highest single population AND the starport.

 

[rancke]

I would disagree with that. A Military Class A shipyard is still a Class A shipyard - it is capable of building starships, it can perform annual maintenance and it has refined fuel available. That is the Class A definition. Whether or not it allows civilians is irrelevant IMO.

There's no such thing as a Class A shipyard.There are shipyards and no shipyards. That's the choice. A Class A starport has a shipyard that builds civilian ships. Other classes of starport do not. A world can build military starships even if its starport is class E, so obviously it's possible to have a starport with a shipyard that nevertheless is not a Class A starport.


Hans

 

[Vargas]

Maybe the shipyard is run by Droyne who crank out handbuilt TL-D ships?

 

[far-trader]

Ah, the old "Count only the humans." of IISS population calculation

 

[hunter]

There's no such thing as a Class A shipyard.There are shipyards and no shipyards. That's the choice. A Class A starport has a shipyard that builds civilian ships. Other classes of starport do not. A world can build military starships even if its starport is class E, so obviously it's possible to have a starport with a shipyard that nevertheless is not a Class A starport.

You know, it occurred to me. Has it ever been written that the 'shipyard' of a Class A or B has to be functional? A class A with a mothballed shipyard technically can still produced starships.

 

[Plankowner]

Looking at it from the RW airplane business, Boeing builds planes in the Seattle area, but NOT at the main Seattle airport. Most of the bigger planes are assembled and tested out of Payne Field, not Sea-Tac.

So Sea-Tac is a Class C starport (minor repair facilities only, but Payne Field is a Class A starport. Repairs at Payne Field are handled by a small Fixed Base Operator next to Boeing that does mods and overhauls, but doesn't build planes.

Combined, Seattle is a Class A port, but needs three different facilities to meet that requirement.

Wichita KS is a Class A Starport (with a Military Base) but can only build small planes (but a lot of them). The civilian airport is tiny compared to the military base and the construction ports. All with a population of about 50,000.

Tulsa OK is a Class B Starport (American Airlines has a major overhaul facility there) but a very small airport.

 

[casquilho]

:file_19:

What do you mean: "Take your pick!"

It's not a choice, the Mainworld of the system is BOTH the highest single population AND the starport.

So you are saying there is never a time a system could have more then one world and one has the highest population and another with a lower population has the highest starport?

Just want to be sure I underrstand this.

Daniel

 

[far-trader]

So you are saying there is never a time a system could have more then one world and one has the highest population and another with a lower population has the highest starport?

Just want to be sure I underrstand this.

Daniel

Not according to the system generation rules. Logically I agree it could happen, probably as often as not.

The way I interpret it (for the OTU) is that the Mainworld is defined as the one that gets the attention.

Said attention means or is because of most of the population being there.

Said designation as Mainworld is what determines the (interstellar) Starport designation. There may be better facilities in the system, but they are not able to engage in or offer interstellar services. So they aren't Starports, they are Spaceports.

 

[casquilho]

Not according to the system generation rules. Logically I agree it could happen, probably as often as not.

The way I interpret it (for the OTU) is that the Mainworld is defined as the one that gets the attention.

Said attention means or is because of most of the population being there.

Said designation as Mainworld is what determines the (interstellar) Starport designation. There may be better facilities in the system, but they are not able to engage in or offer interstellar services. So they aren't Starports, they are Spaceports.

Ah now I am following you.

Thank You.

Daniel

 

[Icosahedron]

Sorry, but I'm not really following any of this, and since it was my suggestion that started it, I suppose I ought to try.

Maybe it's just 30 years of my own houserules muddying the water.

Firstly I must have missed the bit where military ships can be built at a Class E starport. I thought you needed a Class A port to build starships? And conversely if starships are built there (even military only) it is by definition a Class A port?

Secondly, if 'better facilities' exist on another planet in system, surely traffic would go there in preference, whether or not there are more peasants in the fields?
I agree the rules probably don't allow for it (at which point I bring in a house rule).

Maybe I should drop the whole thing - it was only a suggestion, after all.