Scouts as spies

[rancke]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
My objection to the anti-IRIS stance was that I felt I was being branded as stupid for having made my decision as to what I thought my TU should include (IMTU, Strephon is still as fake as he was originally, and SM retcon is mostly ignored). I thought that a bit unfair for it depended on a set of selections of what is and is not canon or the right way to do things as personal (although different) as my own.

Well, that I can agree with you about 100%. What you do in your own TU is your affair and your affair only. (To me this is so much of a truism that I feel annoyed when someone points it out to me ). But it also makes any sort of discussion about IRIS fairly moot. No offense, but I'm not really very interested in your TU (and, I hasten to add, I don't expect others to be very much interested in my TU). (There are exceptions, of course -- for example, I'm fascinated with alternate universes and enjoy descriptions of campaigns set in such.)

Unless otherwise noted, I assume any public discussion is about the OTU (or the GTU (when there is a difference)). If we don't have a common reference frame, what's the point?

I have to confess that I also have a tendency to overlook those otherwise notes, so if you made a point about talking about your TU earlier in the discussion, I apologize for giving you a hard time.


Hans

 

[kaladorn]

No apology required, its the Internet... I don't get too fussed.

I guess a subpoint here is even a discussion of the OTU is "period dependent" in that the OTU has changed, retcon'd, etc and bits of it are described in so many locations (and some answers have come out of HIWG or TML or GDW in odd ways) that few people have access to all (I forex, don't have Arrival Vengeance... but I have most of the rest now). There is OTU, there is GTU, there is Forbidden Canon.... I agree a common context is necessary for discussion.

I simply suggest that there are ways in which IRIS can make sense, if one wants to have them. I will concede that, based on SM and other work, that they went from being a somewhat official item to an official item then to an unofficial (or really decimated) item. So, there is a good basis for your argument that, in the latter versions of the OTU, that IRIS was at best a bunch of well intentioned failures and a worst a bunch of misguided hucksters.

However, if you want them to make sense, and found them an interesting idea (as they were *once* part of the OTU, just like a lot of other de-canonized ideas, some of which are a bit of a loss IMO), there are ways to interpret their presence where they are not insensible, impossible, nor even impractical. That doesn't quite make them OTU, or more correctly it makes them a now-dated version of the OTU... but it can still make them useful if they interest you.

After all, if all that exists or is worth discussing is the OTU, we'll run out of discussion in fairly short order. And anything we discuss can be retcon'd away by the next sweep of the official hatchet-pen....

 

[jchurchill]

This whole IRIS/Anti-IRIS canon debate reminds me a little bit of a scene from Life of Brian....follow the shoe...no, follow the gourd...etc etc.

Obviously both sides have strong opinions and make some good points for each side. Part of the terrific thing I always liked about Traveller is that originally it was "milleau free" and one could --and still can -- tailor as much of it to one's personal style as one wants or needs. One of the more enjoyable things about these boards is seeing how different people interpret the same rules and the details lovingly added by most people.

A bit off topic but worth noting sometimes I think....

Secret Agent,
[liason -3; carousing 4]

 

[Jame]

I think I missed out on IRIS. Nuts. Oh well, hopefully someone will explain.

Anyway, trying to return to the original intent of the topic (because while IRIS is apparently a spying agency, I was focused more on the individual/agent level), what about Scouts as Agents/commandoes in the service of an agency like IRIS? Where they're given a mission, told "do this, take not more than this long, and get back here?" Has anyone else done this, and does it deserve its own topic?

 

[jchurchill]

Anyway, trying to return to the original intent of the topic (because while IRIS is apparently a spying agency, I was focused more on the individual/agent level), what about Scouts as Agents/commandoes in the service of an agency like IRIS? Where they're given a mission, told "do this, take not more than this long, and get back here?" Has anyone else done this, and does it deserve its own topic?
=================================================
Scouts as covert officers certainly works and they are trained for that under Detached Duty service. But as I said before...normally the real practice of intelligence officers --- ["spies" as you proabably think of them] is to recruit "agents" -- foreign nationals with access to information or influence. Scouts posing as foreign nationals is tough. SIS and OSS learned that during 2nd World War and when trying to penetrate the USSR. But if you want a more freewheeling fictional style and then Scouts can be used as "secret agents" who pose as other "nationalities" If you are using Traveller alines -- like Aslan, Vagr, Hiver at al...how is your scout going to pose as Vagr, Aslan..Hiver at al? Even Zhodani?? He/she can't. The simple fact is that Scout must recruit aliens of those races. That's where the challenge is....


Scouts as commandoes.

Why I ask? Why? If you look in Book 4 there is a whole system for generating commandoes. Pretty good ones too. Book 6 doesn't really generate ideal commandoes and why do so when the Army and the Marines have commandoes? I suppose you could send some commandoes though commando training at the Army or Marine special warfare center. IMTU I have a remote planet that serves as a joint commando training center -- PLanet Achnacarry

In closing, spies and commandoes do different jobs and tend to be different animals. Spies are generally low key and unobtrusive. Rarely do they use violence or a gun. Commandoes are also stealthy but they are used to destroy things or cause havoc behind enemy lines and then slip away.

 

[Jame]

Hmmmm... What about scouts as short-mission agents? I.E. Get in, get the operative and get out, make no fuss or control/deflect it and you have free reign within certain guidelines.

 

[jchurchill]

Hmmmm... What about scouts as short-mission agents? I.E. Get in, get the operative and get out, make no fuss or control/deflect it and you have free reign within certain guidelines.
=============================================
That makes a certain amount of sense. Of course these are just my opinions based in IMTU. I'm sure others will disagree. It just seemed to me that Scounts are ill-suited to traditional commando style missions and IMTU Scouts tend to be loners or at least used to working alone. Certainly there are strong bonds among them. IMTU it's a small and very clubby group but then my empires are smaller and more managable.

ou could certainly build a commando force of scouts based in the Security branch but I would run them through commando school as set out in Book 4. {Either the Scouts have their own school or they use some ties with IN or IA and their schools.]

 

[jchurchill]

Speaking of spies -- here is a good example of how it works in real life. The new York Times story today about the air force EM who has allegedly been spying for Syria. A US citizen recruited by a foreign power:

"The accusations contained in the six-page charge sheet, copies of which the Air Force provided tonight, include wrongfully taking photographs of the camp sites, transferring classified information to an unclassified computer and unlawfully delivering baklava to detainees."

The first two he might be able to talk his way out of but he'll probably hang for the last offence.

 

[Vargas]

Note: IRIS first appeared in GDW's Challenge Magazine, I forget which issue, and was explicitly labelled a variant.

The author of that article, who I shall refer to as 'He Who Shall Not Be Named', was later for all intents and purposes the Traveller line editor before Dave Nilsen. I believe it was his brilliant idea to introduce Hard Times and the Black War strikes which added sooooo much to the MT setting

Dave later drove a very big and well deserved stake through IRIS' heart in Survival Margin.

Good thing I've gotten over most of my bitterness. . .

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Vargas:
Dave later drove a very big and well deserved stake through IRIS' heart in Survival Margin.

I have just reread SM. He did show this Strephon, whom we believe to be real (after the fact) as poo-pooing their function. However, that does not mean he was correct nor does it remove them from the picture.

So, I'd call it more of a sharpened toothpick than a stake.

And considering some of the other work that DN produced, I'm not sure he has any better claim to having done the OTU any favours.

 

[MrMorden]

IMTU the scouts have a primary role in providing up-to-date survey and scientific data on systems and hazards both inside and outside the Imperium.

They also have a secondary role in intelligence gathering. After all, the Scouts ARE a branch of the Military, and it's only natural that they would use information they uncover in the course of their normal operations for the benefit (military or otherwise) of their parent government.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Scouts ARE a branch of the Military

No, they're a civilian government agency.

 

[kaladorn]

Andrew, I think you are mistaken.

The way they can be formed into squadrons and attached to the Navy strongly suggests that, like the USCG, they are considered an element of the polity's military forces.

The CG doesn't have a military role, most of the time. But it does have harbour def and security and littoral water control aspects that can be projected. And Scouts, in a similar vein, are seasoned spacers, likely not afraid of a fight if need be, used to using armed auxilliary vessels, and who work well alone. They'd be good military scouts once they were trained what to watch for that would be of interest to Nav Int.

 

[jchurchill]

The Scouts seem most like a quasi-military force.
During wartime they do work with the military but they are not "military" in the strict sense of the word.

I would not call the IISS military exactly but they are not "civilian" in the sense that many government agencies are....

 

[Jame]

So, what'd be the difference between an intelligence service and a scout service? Other than an intelligence service doing the get the info, do the spy thing and be quiet while a scout service does the find new worlds, explore them and keep at it.

 

[jchurchill]

"So, what'd be the difference between an intelligence service and a scout service?"

One obtains information by overt and covert means but perhaps more by covert. [the intelligence service that is...] A scout service obtains information and explores areas in a more or less overt way. [IMO]


"Other than an intelligence service doing the get the info, do the spy thing and be quiet"

Yes more or less....


"while a scout service does the find new worlds, explore them and keep at it."

Yes, more or less also.

The Scout Service can certainly have an Intelligence branch or unit and that does not make the Scouts a spy agency. Hell, the US State Dept. has an intelligence unit [called INR]. So do many oyher US agencies. But that doesn't make these other agencies an intelligence service like the CIA or SIS or DGSE et al.

Not sure if that answers your question though.

 

[Jame]

You've certainly answered that question, but raised another. Can you, or anyone, tell me about the State Department's INR, what they do and etc.? And do they have a website?!? Thanks!

 

[Andrew Boulton]

http://www.state.gov/s/inr/

 

[Jame]

Thanks, Andrew!

 

[Antaine]

Originally posted by Jame:
Hmmmm... What about scouts as short-mission agents? I.E. Get in, get the operative and get out, make no fuss or control/deflect it and you have free reign within certain guidelines.

If I may wade in here..IMTU, scouts are fairly common place in and around most systems. They can even be found in amber and red travel zones with few or no excuses required unless the Navy has interdicted the system for their own reasons and even then, a scout could have legitimate reasons for being close to that system (they are a "courier" after all).

A Type S Scout has accommodation for more than one person so use scouts (covertly of course) to in/exfiltrate commandoes and other operatives. it's a job right up their alley so to speak!


Hmmm...let's see...type S, 4 staterooms at double occupancy gives you maximun 7 operatives. Hell, 3 ton of cargo space and you could conceiveably infiltrate 7 Marines in Battledress with enough stores to run around for 2-4 weeks in the scrub!

So you only need a 4 man recon team inserted and they are staying for 10 days. They can be inserted by HAHO/HALO from the scout and exfiltrated 10 days later by the same ship as it continues on it's "routine world survey work" to update world data for the Imperium!

The recon team is made up of scouts on detached duty and hey presto...scouts are "spys".

(pppsssttttt....I'm talking CT rules here )

Scenario 2: Type S Scout lands at class A downport and it's 2 man crew lock her up and head out for a 2 day shore leave. Later they emplane and depart to parts unknown on more survey work and the cops are left scratching their heads over the assassination of that high level executive of SuSAG who also happened to be the bane of the Sector Duke!

Happy Travelling.